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1977 302 PCM Engine

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-10-2019 at 6:43am
Originally posted by Mille1sj Mille1sj wrote:

Gary, I will research the distributor gear more. I need to confirm that before I do some damage. Thanks for the heads up.


That should be real easy research Steve.

Talk to LSM Engineering and ask them if your distributor gear is compatible with the gear on the new camshaft

Stock distributor gear is cast iron

Logically, I would have thought there would have been some mention of gear compatibility somewhere along the way when the camshaft was being ordered/made/sent to you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-10-2019 at 8:18am
Thanks Ken, I’ll call LSM on Monday. There are some notes I’ll check on the cam card as well. I don’t remember seeing it, but it may be on there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2019 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Mille1sj Mille1sj wrote:

Thanks Ken, I’ll call LSM on Monday. There are some notes I’ll check on the cam card as well. I don’t remember seeing it, but it may be on there.


Apparently this is a really long phone call
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2019 at 8:16pm
Unfortunately it was a series of many phone calls. LSM recommended a composite or bronze gear for the roller cam, sounds easy enough, but bromze or composite reverse rotation distributor gears do not exist for the ford 302 or 351.

Even a Cast iron gear is nearly impossible to find. So after multiple calls with LSM and a few former coworkers, they recommended I have a cast iron gear melonite or nitride coated. This should allow it to work with the 8620 Roller Cam.

Any thoughts on this? Anyone with a metallurgy background that would agree or disagree?

If bronze is the only way, I can get a few gears made, but i’ll Pay for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2019 at 8:44pm
Just me thinking out loud here, but it seems that LSM should have been talking about cam gear compatibility with you before deciding to make your cam.

Maybe they did and you didn't realize that there was nothing out there

it's pretty common knowledge at least here on CCF that what you need doesn't really exist as a mass produced product and they should know that too or at least ask what you have for a gear..

Can't they make a gear for you that's compatible with their cam or maybe do the coating of a cast iron RR gear that you send to them? Or tell you where to get it done to their standards.

At least that way if there are problems it's their cam and gear.

Otherwise if you have problems, you know what their answer will be with somebody else's gear being involved.

I don't have a clue what a one off gear like that or even a small number of them would cost but you're a gear guy that could probably get some help through work and if you had orders for a few from some CCFers it could bring the price per gear down..

I was hoping your answer would be different, but had that feeling that this would be the situation.

Duane in Indy may be able to be of some help here



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2019 at 9:09pm
It’s partially my fault for not considering the fact that Ford RR gears are so hard to find. LSM gave me the name of a local company that they use for other melonized products. Unfortunately there wasn’t any discussion of distributor gear material before. Had I known they were not available, I would have just put a new flat tappet in.

I plan to check a few more sources for the melonized gear and a few more small gear shops over the next few days. Worst case, if I pay to have a bronze gear made, I will also get the cutting summary so I could get more cut in the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2019 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2019 at 9:53pm
Thanks Ben, it’s reassuring to see the compatibility of distributor material and cam material. Hopefully I can have a cast iron gear melonized and be done with it. I would plan to inspect the gear periodically to ensure there are not any issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 2:26am
Originally posted by Mille1sj Mille1sj wrote:

Even a Cast iron gear is nearly impossible to find. So after multiple calls with LSM and a few former coworkers, they recommended I have a cast iron gear melonite or nitride coated. This should allow it to work with the 8620 Roller Cam.
Any thoughts on this? Anyone with a metallurgy background that would agree or disagree?
If bronze is the only way, I can get a few gears made, but i’ll Pay for it.


8620 is a very good steel alloy. It can have a tough core and a hard outer surface. Core for strength and hard surface for wear.
Anyway, if you could get a length of material cut (hobbed) with the correct tooth configuration then the remaining work (lathe) is pretty simple. I would suggest at least 12 inches of gear, then numerous gears can be machined from that one piece.
Nitriding is a surface hardening that is only a couple thousands deep but very hard.
That is at least one way to go.   (I will probably get corrected here, I always do)
















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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 5:39am
I like the Idea of one long gear and cutting off pieces to machine into gears. I am working on getting a second gernzonthat I can have one nitrided then send the other out to be reverse engineered.

I offered to buy the prints or cutting summaries from MSD, Mallory and pretty much anyone else that has made these gears. They claim they don’t have any of these records anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 8:15am

DUI supplies the reverse Ford dizzy so they have access to the gear documents?

Mallory is just brushing you off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 9:44am
Pretty sure that dui hasn’t had rr gears in many years.

3D printing technology there get?

I’d be leaning on LSM pretty hard to find a workable solution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 9:54am
They still list a 302 and 351 Dizzy with a RR gear?

3d printing would be stellar. Anyone know anyone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 10:19am
Yep, they’ve listed it forever. I remember hearing feedback 5+ years ago (maybe 10) that the rr gear wasn’t actually available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 10:20am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Pretty sure that dui hasn’t had rr gears in many years.

3D printing technology there get?

I’d be leaning on LSM pretty hard to find a workable solution.


Their fix is to send my current gear out to melonized. I am fine with that, after I confirm with a few metallurgists that it will work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 10:21am
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

They still list a 302 and 351 Dizzy with a RR gear?

3d printing would be stellar. Anyone know anyone?


I know of a few local spots I could have it 3D printed, I just need to get my hands on a design. I don't have access to design software anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 10:37am
I’d like to know whether the available 3d printing material(s) are suitable for the application... I have little doubt the gear could be reproduced reasonably accurately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 10:45am
Ahh, I wonder if they ever started making the Mallory gears again. I bought all the available ones up for the dealership back when I got wind they were unavailable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 11:37am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

I’d like to know whether the available 3d printing material(s) are suitable for the application... I have little doubt the gear could be reproduced reasonably accurately.


I just spoke to a local 3D printing source, they said they use MS1 tool steel that could be carborized, nitrided, heat treated, surface treated, welded, etc.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 11:37am
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

Ahh, I wonder if they ever started making the Mallory gears again. I bought all the available ones up for the dealership back when I got wind they were unavailable.


I spoke to MSD and Mallory yesterday, both stated that they do not make them anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Mille1sj Mille1sj wrote:

I like the Idea of one long gear and cutting off pieces to machine into gears. I am working on getting a second gernzonthat I can have one nitrided then send the other out to be reverse engineered.

I offered to buy the prints or cutting summaries from MSD, Mallory and pretty much anyone else that has made these gears. They claim they don’t have any of these records anymore.


The voice on the phone at DUI will tell you that they have 302 RR distributors complete with a gear and they're made of cast iron for flat tappet cams.

If you're looking for a gear to send out to be reverse engineered, I know "this guy" that has a new Mallory gear for a 351W that would probably lend it to you

It's the same as the 302 gear except the hole for the shaft is bigger,

0.531 inches for a 351W       0.467 inches for a 302
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


The voice on the phone at DUI will tell you that they have 302 RR distributors complete with a gear and they're made of cast iron for flat tappet cams.


Must’ve found some or had them made... wonder what they’d say about a gear for a roller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 7:30pm


I may need a sample gear, we discussed scanning a new gear and the one off of my distributor and doing an overlay to see how much it wore. We also talked about a more accurate way to measure using a Faro Arm.

I’ll call DUI tomorrow to see if they have any information they would be willing to share regarding their gears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 7:39pm
Reading your story, It seems LSM needs to help you resolve this dilemma.

They are the experts & should have alerted you to the difficulty in sourcing a NLA mating part.

You can't be the only person to run into this brick wall.
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2019 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

Reading your story, It seems LSM needs to help you resolve this dilemma.

They are the experts & should have alerted you to the difficulty in sourcing a NLA mating part.

You can't be the only person to run into this brick wall.


LSM does 3D printing, so they can help with that, but they don’t print in bronze or composite. They are still looking into what they can do to help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-30-2019 at 7:44am
There I was driving down the road and Abracadabra came on the radio which for some strange reason made me think of this thread   

Can't help but wonder if you ever got a gear for the roller cam?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-30-2019 at 8:03am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

It's the same as the 302 gear except the hole for the shaft is bigger,
0.531 inches for a 351W       0.467 inches for a 302


I heard of a guy once that bored out the smaller one to make it fit the bigger shaft and then even sleeved a big one to fit the smaller shaft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-30-2019 at 8:10am
This guy you speak of, he must be a pretty clever guy that only keeps it as original as he wants it

And like to make metal shavings out of big pieces of metal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mille1sj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-30-2019 at 8:28am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

There I was driving down the road and Abracadabra came on the radio which for some strange reason made me think of this thread   

Can't help but wonder if you ever got a gear for the roller cam?



I may be a little late getting the boat in the water this year. I have some composite gears being made now. I managed to get 2 new cast iron gears for a 351, I sent those and my original 302 gear to a small gear shop in Chicago I used use for prototypes. They have reverse engineered the gear. The original plan was to have them cut them out of bronze. Fortunately, I found the company that makes the majority of the composite gears you see online for all automotive applications. They agreed to sell me the composite gear blanks (finishedand ready for teeth) for the 302, 0.467 ID.

The blanks should be shipping to the gear shop early next week. I think I can still get the boat in the water the first week of June if all goes well with the gears.

A little later than usual, however, we did get snow in Michigan this week, so I’m not missing much.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-30-2019 at 10:24am
Get a few extras made while they’re tooled up... I can think of a few interested parties!
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