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Duane in Indy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2019 at 9:28am
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Oh yes Duane, i'm pulling the trigger on TF 170 heads


I opted for FLO TEK aluminum heads. Speedway Motors had them for $769 delivered. Cast in China (like most heads) but machined in Indiana. May be worth looking at. I like mine.Small chambers and small runners, that is what boats like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2019 at 11:33am
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:


I could freshen one off season while running this 351 lower for a spell longer

So would just need a mid-sump pan and pickup, distributor, and 52oz imbalance flywheel, and a used, popular intake. And fresh head bolts. pushrods



My 302 was/is all automotive junk yard found stuff so there is workable pickup/sumps out there - if it comes to go time Ill look for the notes/parts.

I assume there is a parts store flywheel available that would work as well from a manual transmission 5.0 era mustang or something. But maybe not if diameter or tooth count changed from the 1964.5 mustang flywheel design that early 302 and all 351w marine motors used.   I know there were added holes on later ones for bigger clutches but I don't know if the diameter or tooth count had to change as well.

Either way one is available aftermarket but would be cheaper if its an autoparts store pick up. I ended up having my 28oz flywheel drilled on at the local engine balancer to make it match a later 50oz crank - but I did that cause I was in a hurry- it would deprive you of a perfectly good 351w flywheel.

Pushrods with the TW heads will absolutely not match anything stock in either of the deck heights so a few bucks there for sure.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-19-2019 at 10:36pm
Here's some info for ya'

A Spectra FP-01B oil pan will most likely work for a 302 in your Supreme. It's cheap, has the oil drain on the side and has a dipstick provision. It should be easy to come up with the right oil pump pickup too. Most likely there is no clearance for a high volume oil pump but that's not a bad thing. A Dorman 264-012 is another pan too. It's basically the same pan.

The pictures below will show you some Ford and PCM part numbers for a damper and flywheel for a normal rotation 302 from 1981 or later with 50 ounce imbalance and 157 teeth on the ring gear. You'll see a couple of hand drawn arrows. They came from the PCM parts manual printed in 1990.

If you were using an earlier engine, you can find some numbers on those pages too, but your 351 damper and flywheel would work since the early 302's and 351w were the same 28.2 ounce imbalance.



And if you're gonna do a stroker or just want some reading one of the books in the link has lots of good info

link

If the numbers are hard to read the damper number is E1JE-2-6316-AA but you see it sometimes as E1JE-6316-AA2 and the flywheel number is E1ZR-6380-A2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-20-2019 at 8:39am
Good stuff

Thats great sorting out the pan number, thank you.   I knew about what shape would work, but from pictures it was difficult to confirm what is the front and what is the back. Appears Eighties Econoline applications

Duane I studied the Flo-Teks for good long while, please tell my how they have been, or point me to text if you've already written it up.


It appears the TF heads switch from 10 degree locks and retainers to 7 degree when building a head for a roller cam, along with heavier springs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2019 at 2:28pm
Gaining..

Mains rolled in, RMS, Rod Bearings in..


Cam thrust plate modified for clearance., accept v-head bolts


Cam in, Thrust bearing set at .005


Cam plate on, Threadlocked


Finding TDC,


block will get painted shortly, then mock 1 head, and dial cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2019 at 8:07am
Day early, dollar short...ugh

Great deal for someone doing similar...
https://westernmass.craigslist.org/pts/d/springfield-trick-flow-tw-170-heads/6828973152.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 8:24am
Mock up , just cuz

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 8:26am
Checking PVT , and dialing in camshaft

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 9:42am
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Checking PVT , and dialing in camshaft


Fun stuff!!!   Kinda miss building engines. Hard to get out of your blood.   I still have a Cleveland motor that I need to figure out what to do with.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2019 at 10:10am
With your skills you should have that thing marinized in no time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 10:11am
Thanks men

I seem to be at an impasse

Two nights trying to get the numbers right, but it doesn't add up...

I could only get the valve open @ 0.050 near to correct when indexed 8 degrees retarded. However then valve-close was showing 14-16 degrees late

Duration shows 14-16 degrees longer than the card indicates.

Also lift at valve measures an extra 50 thou, Alone not a big problem as there is plenty of PVT still.
I'lll confirm LSA next just for s&g's before i take it out, but i suspect LSA will be different also

Appears this never-used cam is more wild than what the package indicates, maybe it got mixed up as it changed hands somewhere

Unless i'm doing something dreadfully wrong, ill be shopping for a cam that works.

Luckily selection is good being std rotation

Inputs welcome for consideration!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 11:50am
So I might be missing something but it looks as is you are measuring valve movement but - .050 spec should be tappet movement, so perhaps its a rocker ratio induced error?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 11:59am
If in doubt about cams I always ask Isky...

http://www.iskycams.com/cam-degreeing.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 2:06pm
Youknow Joe that could very well be it!
Recently watched too much pushrod measuring /rocker geometry tutorials, and likely mixed up the techniques
much obliged!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2019 at 3:40pm
You need to watch the video below IF you attempt to degree off of the retainer like you are set up to do.

video

Joe is correct, you are confusing two different methods to degree.
Pay special attention to the 4:40 time on the video.   Think that is what is throwing you off.
We always degree'd off of the lifter cause we never had the heads on our spare motors.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-26-2019 at 8:08am
Last night verified that 0 degrees offset results in all cam events being within 1 degree of the card. when i do it right....

Lift at cam measures right on as well.

I think the scorpion rockers sneak a little more than 1.6 ratio, which is fine, there is plenty of PVT.

Now I'm reconsidering not using the Rhodes lifers that came with the cam.

My calculus...

214/224 is not too crazy duration it seems , and i don't want a non-linearity to occur in the power right in the middle of slalom speed ranges.    Appears these come alive 3000-3500, and thats the wrong place for a big ramp in dHP/dRPM, as ramps go both ways, and the major input should be throttle opening, not rpm

Additionally I don;t want to hear them clicking after all this effort
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-26-2019 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:



Now I'm reconsidering not using the Rhodes lifers that came with the cam.

My calculus...

214/224 is not too crazy duration it seems , and i don't want a non-linearity to occur in the power right in the middle of slalom speed ranges.    Appears these come alive 3000-3500, and thats the wrong place for a big ramp in dHP/dRPM, as ramps go both ways, and the major input should be throttle opening, not rpm

Additionally I don;t want to hear them clicking after all this effort

Glad you are moving back in the right direction...

Rhoads lifters - the shifting prop of lifters even --- someone probably wants to buy them from you on the ebay for what it will cost you to replace them. I don't like them in a boat for all your reasons plus hot oil being pretty watery after sustained 4400 barefoot pulling operations.   I don't think you will have vacuum problems without them at idle so no need to risk the clackity clack...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2019 at 8:11am
Updates...

re re re confirmed PVT both methods, clay and dial indicator with setup valvespring.

got .095" intake and exhaust was so over .200 i didn;t commit to a solid number, was plenty and didn't even dimple the clay



Heads are now bolted down and torqued

Measured and got push rods sized to where rocker fulcrums are 90 degrees to the stud at 50% lift. Measured that with a solid lifter

Installed them, and new std hyd lifters, both with assembly lube and set lifter preloads and locked them all down,


I'll need to modify the baffles in the valve covers, as they hit the lock down bolts, rather not buy new ones.

I then clocked the lifters on apiece of paper, and gave the engine 20 revolutions, then checked th position of the lifters to make certain they all rotated some





I've been playing further with the aesthetics of the engine as it goes along.    Prior pictures with the rustoleum hammered black on the block and covers was looking quite acceptable. Noticed that the camera errently picked up browns in the light that got me thinking to wth maybe better embrace the browns, and did some testing
that said, keep in mind the boat is the typical all- chocolate brown hull with tan deck supreme most are familiar with ..

Last week, with the heads still off, retaped the block, (easy, used the old front cover as a mask on the front of the engine) and hit the block and covers with the hammered brown,
There would be a whole lot of silvers going on, so wanted to better highlight the heads and exhaust, so hit the Intake and front cover with hammered copper.
It pained me somewhat to paint a new intake, but they don't look great for long left bare anyway.

I fully understand, its not for everyone. And may only work with a brown-themed boat. But as far as painted engines go, , i'm satisfied with the results

I placed the covers and intake on and a couple bolts on the exhaust to mock-up...








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2019 at 9:43am
Sometimes you just have to embrace the brown.

Everything is looking pretty sweet from here.   I have had to debaffle a few of those valve covers as well didn't notice an oil ingestion issue from it but if you could leave a little baffle for a PCV valve would be nice. I don't think itll be an issue with raised height valve cover rails on those heads but I ruined a cam/set of lifters when I had a set of scorpions rub against the inside of the valve cover where it is dented in for the mounting screw access. It didn’t rub the first time in installed them but on a subsequent install I had them apparently pushed out a little more to the exhaust side. Just something to look for – I’ll never leave an intake unpainted again no matter how pretty they are out of the box, it's a trap. Speaking of intakes, it will be interesting to see how well that engine winds out with the performer, I suspect pretty well matched to the heads/cam for everything other than pure top speed which is probably a reasonable thing for a ski boat.   What is the plan for carb? Any spacer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2019 at 12:23pm
thanks Joe! i'll heed that, and look out for that style of cover interference too. Glad you said so
I won't have near full travel on the rockers till i hit it with the preluber

Carb will be my correct list Holley 600, about 12-14 years old, and trouble-free
I suspect it could leave something on the table for cfm, but alls well for now.
I'm aiming the 34-36mph throttle compensation should improve , as at 36 was getting a little flat to inputs and likely close to transitioning to partial secondaries under load, which don't respond quick enough to throttle inputs like that.

I concur, could do well on everything but flat out big numbers.
The hull is low-lift much like a stars and stripe MC, so this wont be an impressive speed monkey, and that 4-blade oj is going to have rapidly increasing parasitics above 4500 rpm.
these three things together I suspect will keep top mph away. Like you said, not bad because the usage and hull, don't want to spend too much time fast anyway in that hull.
I have a 3-blade later issue federal for playing with too, the boat skis well with that too.

The carb is of the later vintage to have its own PVC port. The old spacer will produce vacuum leaks on the newer edelbrock manifolds as many encountered, Vic want people to use their carburetors i suspect
I bought a black plastic spacer hoping it was entire solid, but it has voids on the underside also. Haven't figured that out completely yet.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2019 at 12:40pm
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2732/

I like the brown/copper- unique!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-09-2019 at 2:02pm
It is looking great.
Carter Carburetors had a Carb Selection chart printed for years. It states a 348-360 Cubic Inch engine will need 610 CFM at 6,000 RPM.
Same engine needs 560 CFM at 5500 RPM.
Your 600 should give you great performance unless you wish to twist it over 6,000.

The 351W with large main journals heats up your oil quickly when run over 5,000 for any extended period.   Large mains support the torque very well and help when running loaded all the time like a boat engine is always exposed to.   For High RPM running with these engines racers would install smaller diameter main journals to keep oil temps in check.
These same large mains have made the 351W a favorite for boat manufacturers because they last a long time while working hard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-10-2019 at 7:54am
Thanks for the solutions men!

thats good news on the cfm Mark
I don't want this to ever see over 5500 as stock bottom end is compromised beyond that, so appears that leaves some margin for cfm then   
a 302's numbers are 6000 for the same piston speeds and stress

So 5200-5300 would be just fine!
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