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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: worn valve stem
    Posted: November-08-2018 at 11:57am
huh..found my noise..

one of these things, is not like the other...


Anyone have a good used 1.45" 351W exhaust valve and a pedestal rocker laying about i can buy and compensate to put in a box?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2018 at 2:36pm
I would be shocked if I didn't - what vintage are you working with there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2018 at 4:27pm


Yay!
This is an '82 model year PCM Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2018 at 9:17pm
Sadly I found nothing, apparently the scrap yard got them, only factory ford heads I found on the shelf are 351m from 78 - and 289 heads from 65.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2018 at 9:23pm
Thanks for looking Joe!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2018 at 6:21am
I figure you could get a new valve and rocker arm from a reputable outfit like Melling or Sealed Power just for a couple of examples, for around 20 bucks total through about any local auto parts store, so why go used?

Maybe a little more with that CT state tax thrown in.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2018 at 8:06am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

I figure you could get a new valve and rocker arm from a reputable outfit like Melling or Sealed Power just for a couple of examples, for around 20 bucks total through about any local auto parts store, so why go used?



You have to be careful letting new parts into your engine, they are like shots of Tequila, once you let in one new part next thing he sneaking friends in pretty soon you have aluminum heads, a cam, and an intake on a perfectly good engine. Better just to never open the parts book up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2018 at 9:54am
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

I figure you could get a new valve and rocker arm from a reputable outfit like Melling or Sealed Power just for a couple of examples, for around 20 bucks total through about any local auto parts store, so why go used?



You have to be careful letting new parts into your engine, they are like shots of Tequila, once you let in one new part next thing he sneaking friends in pretty soon you have aluminum heads, a cam, and an intake on a perfectly good engine. Better just to never open the parts book up.


Well said Joe, Believe me, my 'head ' is spinning, GT40P, Flo-Tek, AFR, P38,...


Best I keep the turd polish in the bottle

Yeah Ken, that may be just what to do


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2018 at 11:33am
What would make 1 stem wear so much faster than the others? A bad lifter?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2018 at 11:54am
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:


You have to be careful letting new parts into your engine, they are like shots of Tequila, once you let in one new part next thing he sneaking friends in pretty soon you have aluminum heads, a cam, and an intake on a perfectly good engine. Better just to never open the parts book up.

Well said Joe, Believe me, my 'head ' is spinning, GT40P, Flo-Tek, AFR, P38,...

Yes, you do need to be careful with your thinking as Joe mentioned. Pretty soon he'll have you thinking towards something like this:





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2018 at 11:55am
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

What would make 1 stem wear so much faster than the others? A bad lifter?


I suspect Tom either knows or will know when he takes it apart -

Could be a material defect somewhere,, rocker, valve stem - ear starts and once you aren't pushing polished surfaces things start go bad.. but not likely

Could be lack of oil through the pushrod serving the rocker worth checking the lifter and the pushrod,

Or either the rocker sticks/has stuck at one point or the valve sticks/has stuck at one point .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2018 at 10:38am
Almost embarrassed to say, its Its made noise since i acquired it. ..Two decades ago.

but this its the first year I committed to taking it apart

Appears no more collateral damage other than the affected pieces
expected a worn cam lobe, but not this.
I suspect a bad lifter started the issue,
But it will get a new Cam and lifters, maybe p heads, or just the valve and rocker, not sure yet. heavy budgeting post divorce and kid still in college
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2018 at 4:31pm
The valve is stuck down, That is normally outside influence.
If someone started that engine with old gas in the tank this can happen.
Old gas turns to varnish when you try to run it.
The varnish coats the valves and valve stems. It makes them stick.
Then a piston can tag them, now the valve is bent and will never close.
With one bad valve you can run and ski with 7 good cylinders, a little weak and rough idle but not too bad.    I did it for half a summer years ago while I gathered parts for my preferred repair.
A broken valve spring can do the same thing. They can break due to a factory defect or due to an over rev situation.
You are doing all the work to fix it, take a little time and do it right.
You never hear anyone complain because they fixed it right.
But on the other hand...............................
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-12-2018 at 7:58pm
Seems like there's a club of CCFans that have run 7 cylinder 351's. Not a bad engine all things considered!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2018 at 3:22pm
Looking at your photos again it is odd. Nearly a 1/4 inch of your valve stem is not there but the spring is still on which means the keepers are still there.
That is a rotocap design on the spring. I wonder if the wrong valve was installed at the wrong installed height to begin with or if the valve tip has worn down that much.
What does that rocker arm look like?? I have never seen a valve tip wear like yours.
I have seen them wear at a slight angle at high miles but never 1/4" gone like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-13-2018 at 5:04pm
I don’t have the experience of you Mark but is it possible the other valves have lash caps on and this one is missing? Does not look beat up enough to be running that way for the last 2 decades.
Pictures can be deceiving, I’m sure Tom would know the difference......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2018 at 2:20am
I would not think a lash cap would be more than .080 thick.   Looking at his picture it appears to be .250 lower than the other valves.   Something is wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2018 at 8:19am
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Almost embarrassed to say, its Its made noise since i acquired it. ..Two decades ago


The hypothesis that PO installed wrong valve is looking pretty plausible.

Could he just have tightened down rocker excessively & got it to work OK for a while?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2018 at 12:41pm
Oh my, I hadn't considered that it was incorrect from a repair long before i got it

I'll take some closeup pictures, for posterity. Plus its fall, what else we going to discuss

Remarkably little wear on the rocker, but it feels as if the original profile is slightly worn.

May be a day or so
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2018 at 1:16pm
may be able to swing some p's from Tri state if i can use this cam on my shelf
I have unused rhodes lifters, and this, is 302 firing order


Whoops, i thought i fixed the image orientation.
The ex dur is 224, seems clipped

What do you think?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2018 at 1:30pm
Seems healthy enough to me, a good bit better than stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-14-2018 at 2:43pm
I think Ford used the lash caps on Exhaust only?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 9:18am
Thanks men,

been a while, but I think i've sorted on a plan of action.
My aim is firstly to get it operating solidly while going though the trouble, exercise my long desire to remove substantial weight from the boat to make it even more spectacular for slalom, and a tangible but not scary power increase in two steps.
secondly to make some more rpm available as it runs out of steam very early.

For this season.. stage 1 ...
First install these 4 parts i have had in hand and had gotten at a steal a long time ago when i first considered attacking the noisy valvetrain.
the hyd flat cam above with the rhodes lifters, Roller chain and oil pump.
So that just costs me some gaskets.
Inspect and gauge the mains while its open.
This '82 351 has as-expected cylinder ridge but no bad jugs or slugs.
recall this is a LH engine
Regarding 'budget' heads, I had considered the tri-state large-valved GT40P, and TS Flo-Tek 180 203505 with 1.94 Intake valves, the edelbrock e-street, and lastly TF twisted wedge 170.
For both low weight and decade+ durability chose the TW 170 with 58cc chambers vs 61 cc. for a modest amount more than the others, it has the longevity of good guides, valves and can be setup for roller cam someday with just new springs plus has 2.02 intake valves.
Appears with this < .500 lift cam, i wont have issues with clearance to these stock pistons.
Looks like my pistons are heavily dished, flycut, and also look to be put on a lathe and another circle cut out of the them even deeper than the dish, so appears to be 18cc or more is gone, hence choosing the 58cc chambers vs 61.
1.6:1 Scorpion rockers
Edelbrock performer or weiland stealth,
std pcm manifolds.
net about 85-90 pounds gone from intake, heads, and rockers.
and get this sorted out by spring.

Stage two will be another season or three away, but utilize the top end above except the intake, which i should find a new home for easily.
This will go upon a 331 stroker shortblock with the appropiate TW pistons for clearance, and dished to keep the 9.3 cr.
Now the system can go roller cam inexpensively and go .550 lift.
With the lower deck height, i can go to a taller duel-plane intake like an air-gap.
Aluminum front cover and convert the sherwood pump with a new flange to work like a crank-driven Johnson like indmar does. Save 70# on the shortblock, and another 20# on the iron front cover and pump bracket. 180# or more total is gone at this point.
This step will be to maintain the improved power while finally loosing the combined weight of one grownazz man from the boat.

well thats my secret evil plan right now
heh, I know, , you'll shoot my eye out kid..
Any inputs on if i should set the Cam straight up or +/- any degrees off?
and of course any other considerations would be welcome to complete the thought experiment before engaging

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 9:49am
Sounds like a good plan.

Be aware that the stealth is the performance (and height) equivalent of the performer RPM so if you’re looking to save height, the standard performer is the way to go at 1” shorter.

I wouldn’t be afraid to go a little higher on CR when the time comes... haven’t found an issue running in excess of 10:1 with 93 and reasonable timing. 9.5 ballpark still ran fine on 89.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 1:47pm
Good to hear Tim

I see, yeah i'd like to keep the 4-hole spacer in use if possible, so lower is better else i run out of height

Ok, I'll keep that cr in mind!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 3:56pm
If more power is needed why not jump to a 351W block.   As they say there is no substitute for cubic inches if you want more power. A built 351W will out run a built 331 every time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 4:39pm
I think something is lost in the translation Mark,he says he has a 351 now, later stage 2 will be a 331??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-11-2019 at 6:34pm
Yeah, thats correct, a weirdo huh?

Situation is I'm not pulling multi footers nor have a hull that i trust at sustained very high speed, just want enough to have some fun, maintain and lighten the slalom tug, and pull a single footer 38-40 if desired, and that would be fairly infrequent

By step 1 ill have the power bump i desire, just want to keep it about 20hp window when going to a fresh shortblock., and drop weight further. I think the modern roller cam help negate the 1/4" less stroke and make it sort of a wash.

Numbers seem consistent that the 302/331 is about 70# off a 351

You see my boat is right at the cusp of eliminating side spray that can be a nuisance shortline with a skiable headwind. I've noticed when extra lightly loaded, its very much reduced. Soooo i get thinking. its been over a decade, time to do something
Wake is great, even for my ladies at 28-30mph, but, even greater is even greater.
Its hobbying at this point

but that given love to hear further what you gent say .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-12-2019 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Oh my, I hadn't considered that it was incorrect from a repair long before i got it

I'll take some closeup pictures, for posterity. Plus its fall, what else we going to discuss

Remarkably little wear on the rocker, but it feels as if the original profile is slightly worn.

May be a day or so


Where are those pictures for posterity?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-13-2019 at 10:35am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:


You have to be careful letting new parts into your engine, they are like shots of Tequila, once you let in one new part next thing he sneaking friends in pretty soon you have aluminum heads, a cam, and an intake on a perfectly good engine. Better just to never open the parts book up.

Well said Joe, Believe me, my 'head ' is spinning, GT40P, Flo-Tek, AFR, P38,...

Yes, you do need to be careful with your thinking as Joe mentioned. Pretty soon he'll have you thinking towards something like this:





I like Pete's long-term view for horse power upgrade. You may need to re-do the engine cover, though.,,,

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