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PCM 351W fresh water cooling (FWC)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 10:51am
Wilhelm,
Getting back to the high temp issue, if your bucket test proves the RWP is doing the job AND if your manifolds are running cool, I'd see if a raw water restriction to the manifolds will do anything. The restriction may put more raw water through the heat exchanger to make a difference.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 10:28am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by Wilhelm Hertzog Wilhelm Hertzog wrote:



I’d like to see how the cooling passages line up on those risers. Never seen that style before, though they are handsome. Manifolds look like normal PCM.

Gasket for reference:
https://www.skidim.com/images/RM0002.jpg


No, neither the risers nor the manifolds are the standard PCM Ford ones. Off a GM motor IIRC, with a bit of adaptation to fit them to the Ford block, and custom cut gaskets. I have had this setup since buying the boat - seemingly no issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Wilhelm Hertzog Wilhelm Hertzog wrote:



I’d like to see how the cooling passages line up on those risers. Never seen that style before, though they are handsome. Manifolds look like normal PCM.

Gasket for reference:
https://www.skidim.com/images/RM0002.jpg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 9:33am
Originally posted by Wilhelm Hertzog Wilhelm Hertzog wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

It seems to me that the manifolds and risers are raw water cooled.

Instead of the raw water going in the front of the manifold, it goes in the rear and up through the riser and out the back of the boat.



Correct.


That would be a FWC half system or a closed cooling half system

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 9:24am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

As far as the distributor, it more a matter of spark protection.

Where the advance mechanism goes through the distributor there's an opening that gas fumes can pass through and get into the distributor if you have a fuel leak.

The fumes meet the spark in the distributor and you have an explosion that is not contained in the distributor because of that open unprotected path.

The marine version has no vacuum advance and the opening is blocked off but there are a couple of vent holes in the body of a DUI HEI marine distributor that have brass screens in them which keep the explosion contained inside the distributor.

The gas fumes can still get in if you have a leak but like mentioned above the screens prevent the internal explosion from getting outside the distributor so it keeps the fumes in the engine compartment from exploding. The distributor may be damaged internally, but you won't be in an exploding boat.

It works on the same principle as an old miners lamp

Here's a link down below to a thread by somebody who "converted" his Chinese distributor.

In his mind it meets USCG requirements   

The typical factory job has 2 layers of screen per vent hole, not 1 like he did. I think there's a reason for that

Lots of people have survived for a long time without USCG approved stuff on their boat, but it just takes that one bad day to change all that.

link

Some later marine certified distrihbutors are well sealed with no openings for fumes to get into the distributor.

By the way, is your engine normal automotive rotation or if it's reverse rotation, did you have some machine work done to adapt a reverse rotation gear to that distributor?


Reverse rotation. I can't recall if the PO installed the distributor or if it was done by the guys who rebuilt the motor for me. I suspect there was some machine work involved, yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 9:21am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

It seems to me that the manifolds and risers are raw water cooled.

Instead of the raw water going in the front of the manifold, it goes in the rear and up through the riser and out the back of the boat.



Correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 9:09am
It seems to me that the manifolds and risers are raw water cooled.

Instead of the raw water going in the front of the manifold, it goes in the rear and up through the riser and out the back of the boat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 9:00am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Last picture shows the the heat exchanger at the top of the picture.The 1" hose coming down in the middle of the picture with the T is the feed to the manifolds, the green striped hoses are going to the rear of each exhaust manifold. The only differences to PCM's setup is that their heat exchanger is usually mounted along side of the block right behind the raw water pump and the manifolds look more like Crusaders.

Just 1 connection, rather than in/out? Risers are dry?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 8:05am
As far as the distributor, it more a matter of spark protection.

Where the advance mechanism goes through the distributor there's an opening that gas fumes can pass through and get into the distributor if you have a fuel leak.

The fumes meet the spark in the distributor and you have an explosion that is not contained in the distributor because of that open unprotected path.

The marine version has no vacuum advance and the opening is blocked off but there are a couple of vent holes in the body of a DUI HEI marine distributor that have brass screens in them which keep the explosion contained inside the distributor.

The gas fumes can still get in if you have a leak but like mentioned above the screens prevent the internal explosion from getting outside the distributor so it keeps the fumes in the engine compartment from exploding. The distributor may be damaged internally, but you won't be in an exploding boat.

It works on the same principle as an old miners lamp

Here's a link down below to a thread by somebody who "converted" his Chinese distributor.

In his mind it meets USCG requirements   

The typical factory job has 2 layers of screen per vent hole, not 1 like he did. I think there's a reason for that

Lots of people have survived for a long time without USCG approved stuff on their boat, but it just takes that one bad day to change all that.

link

Some later marine certified distrihbutors are well sealed with no openings for fumes to get into the distributor.

By the way, is your engine normal automotive rotation or if it's reverse rotation, did you have some machine work done to adapt a reverse rotation gear to that distributor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-20-2019 at 5:23am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

The things that people notice when you put pictures up

Maybe somebody will notice the Chinese HEI distributor with the vacuum advance canister peeking out and say something about it. Or they may question whether the carburetor is marine or automotive.

Just tell them that you're in South Africa and USCG regs don't apply to you, even if it's a good safety thing.

Sparks and explosions/fires don't really know any borders though, so I tend to think an African spark and an American spark can have the same end result in a fuel leak situation.


Points taken, thanks!

It is indeed an automotive carb, but it has been fitted with J shaped float bowl vents. Not always simple/cost effective to get OEM marine parts for old engines in South Africa...

As to the distributor: does that unconnected vacuum advance canister potentially cause ignition timing issues?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 11:33pm
Wilhelm where does is hose that feeds the T come from?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 8:10pm
Last picture shows the the heat exchanger at the top of the picture.The 1" hose coming down in the middle of the picture with the T is the feed to the manifolds, the green striped hoses are going to the rear of each exhaust manifold. The only differences to PCM's setup is that their heat exchanger is usually mounted along side of the block right behind the raw water pump and the manifolds look more like Crusaders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 7:02pm
How is the exhaust cooled?

Dry risers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 6:48pm
The things that people notice when you put pictures up

Maybe somebody will notice the Chinese HEI distributor with the vacuum advance canister peeking out and say something about it. Or they may question whether the carburetor is marine or automotive.

Just tell them that you're in South Africa and USCG regs don't apply to you, even if it's a good safety thing.

Sparks and explosions/fires don't really know any borders though, so I tend to think an African spark and an American spark can have the same end result in a fuel leak situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by outerbanked outerbanked wrote:

Pics of your engine would help.
I would want to know if they included your exhaust risers (the stock system did not).
Have you done the bucket test with the raw water pump to ensure you are getting correct flow? Have you verified the temps with a infrared temp gun? Checked for kinks? Made sure the hoses are not collapsing under load? Coolant is at proper level?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 4:42pm
Exactly the same as your one on the left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sport1999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 1:52pm
May be wrong, but I believe the GT40 is a double pass. Where as, the 351w would be a single pass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 7:25pm
I happen to have in my stash 2 new heat exchangers,1 for a regular PCM engine and 1 for a GT40. They both measure approx 2" in diameter and 2' long but have different inlets and outlets. The GT 40 one looks to have more tubes inside it. Curious if yours has the same dimensions?

GT40 on the right-





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 5:26pm
Here's a link to a thread on the bucket test

It's testing if the RWP is doing it's job.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Wilhelm,
Is the exchanger used or new? If used, has it been cleaned? They will "plate" ( a build up of impurities on the heat transfer surfaces) out over time loosing their efficiency.


Brand new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 4:55pm
Wilhelm,
Is the exchanger used or new? If used, has it been cleaned? They will "plate" ( a build up of impurities on the heat transfer surfaces) out over time loosing their efficiency.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by outerbanked outerbanked wrote:

Pics of your engine would help.
I would want to know if they included your exhaust risers (the stock system did not).
Have you done the bucket test with the raw water pump to ensure you are getting correct flow? Have you verified the temps with a infrared temp gun? Checked for kinks? Made sure the hoses are not collapsing under load? Coolant is at proper level?


None of the above explicitly, no. I'm reasonably confident the hoses aren't collapsing, and I haven't noticed kinks, but I'll double-check. We replaced the heat exchanger inlet hose with a transparent hose, and there appears to be a good flow of water into the heat exchanger, but I haven't checked the actual flow rate. How does one do the bucket test?

And no, my exhaust risers aren't included - it's just the stock FWC system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Do you have the actual instructions or just the parts list? I obviously cannot speak for them but if you follow their instructions they want you to remove the risers from the manifolds to move the water inlets from the front to the back. You then need to change the gaskets. PCV valve hose needs to be longer and I suspect the valve it's self may be one with a 90 degree bend built in. Either way you would think they should be included but who knows....
If you need the instructions I have them but have no scanner,maybe I could take a picture of them and post if you need them.


Gary—if you replaced your iPhone since it took a drink on Deep Lake, there’s a built in scan feature in the camera function. Might be worth a look see. You are really helpful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote outerbanked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 1:33pm
Pics of your engine would help.
I would want to know if they included your exhaust risers (the stock system did not).
Have you done the bucket test with the raw water pump to ensure you are getting correct flow? Have you verified the temps with a infrared temp gun? Checked for kinks? Made sure the hoses are not collapsing under load? Coolant is at proper level?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 11:33am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Wilhelm,
How hot is "too hot"?

Regarding the size of the heat exchanger, you can't go totally by physical size. It's all about internal surface area and fluid flow rates.


Touching 220 degrees Fahrenheit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 11:30am
Wilhelm,
How hot is "too hot"?

Regarding the size of the heat exchanger, you can't go totally by physical size. It's all about internal surface area and fluid flow rates.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 11:21am
So I eventually got all the parts together except the rear heat exchanger bracket (R090038). Also, the part number that I needed to order for the upper thermostat housing assembly (RB025009) was changed to RA025009. Something to do with the separate seal on the RB025009 (part number R047011) having given problems, so the design changed to incorporate a seal in the housing itself, which negates the need for R047011. Be that as it may, I had a rear bracket fabricated to fit the heat exchanger, and my motor is now FWC.

However, the guys who did the installation work for me commented that the size of the heat exchanger is surprisingly small. They are more used to working on Mercruiser motors, where heat exchangers for smaller capacity motors than mine are apparently typically about 50% larger. And subsequent to the FWC conversion, I am now having issues with the motor getting too hot after running at high RPM for a while and then pulling back to idle.

Has anyone else had similar issues? I'm thinking that I may need a larger heat exchanger...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 91nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-19-2019 at 11:31pm
Wilhelm,
I have a few of parts that you need, they are located in Western Australia,$300 US for everything in the pics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 6:16pm
Is that the upper (RB025009) or lower (R025004) thermostat housing that you have available?
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