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PCM 351W fresh water cooling (FWC)

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Wilhelm Hertzog View Drop Down
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    Posted: April-14-2019 at 6:40pm
Hi there. I have a 1982 Ski Nautique with the PCM Ford 351W motor. I use the boat in a variety of fresh/brackish/salt water locations. I am in the process of an engine rebuild (including getting a new block - original one bored out to its limits), and am considering converting to fresh water cooling while I'm at it. Can anyone offer some advice/guidance?

I take it that since PCM ceased production of the OEM FWC kit in 2016, it is a matter of building a custom setup? Has anyone attempted to fit the Indmar kit (http://catalog.orcamarine.com/item/marine-cooling-system-kits/conventional-marine-cooling-system-kits/400800) to this motor? I saw some reference to that kit in the forums in the context of converting a PCM 351.

Thanks for any help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-14-2019 at 7:04pm
Wilhelm,
There are several companies that make generic fresh water cooling kits so check what's available in your area. I'm sure some fabrication of bracketry would be needed as well as some custom hose/plumbing work.

The alternate that many do here is add a means of flushing with fresh water after each outing. Is that possible as I have heard that there is a major water shortage in your area. Is the shortage still a concern?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-14-2019 at 7:07pm
I realize your overseas but a call to PCM might be worth your time,they might just have a few limited parts on hand. You need R024002 the Y fitting, RB025009 upper thermostat cover,R025004 lower thermostat cover. Surge tank RA147009 and heat exchanger RA147008 could be sourced from other vendors. Front heat exchanger bracket R090039 and rear bracket R090038 and surge tank bracket R090040 would be nice but if not available you could fabricate your own. Everything else in the kit are hoses clamps and bolts which you could get on your own.
Keep in mind that the PCM kit only cools the block,what ever water your in goes through te manifolds and risers. In saltwater they roughly last about 5 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-14-2019 at 7:42pm
I have installed flushing connections, so I do flush after salt water trips, but my boat may sometimes be moored in salt water for e.g. a week or two in places where flushing on the water is difficult.

And yes, we did have some severe water restrictions in place, which made flushing a bit tricky, but our water situation is much better currently, so flushing is less of a problem from that point of view currently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-14-2019 at 7:47pm
Thanks a lot Gary, that parts list is hugely helpful. As you say, the heat exchanger and surge tank I can get from generic suppliers - I guess it's the first three parts that you mention that are mission critical for my application. I'll get in touch with PCM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rosconole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-14-2019 at 7:52pm
Might check if crusader has something similar...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 5:16am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I realize your overseas but a call to PCM might be worth your time,they might just have a few limited parts on hand. You need R024002 the Y fitting, RB025009 upper thermostat cover,R025004 lower thermostat cover. Surge tank RA147009 and heat exchanger RA147008 could be sourced from other vendors. Front heat exchanger bracket R090039 and rear bracket R090038 and surge tank bracket R090040 would be nice but if not available you could fabricate your own. Everything else in the kit are hoses clamps and bolts which you could get on your own.
Keep in mind that the PCM kit only cools the block,what ever water your in goes through te manifolds and risers. In saltwater they roughly last about 5 years.


I tracked down an installation manual with parts list for the FWC kit. Any idea why the parts with Reference Number 'N.I.' at the bottom are included in the list? Other than R045029A (overflow hose for the surge tank) it looks to me like these parts have nothing to do with the cooling system?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 11:40am
Do you have the actual instructions or just the parts list? I obviously cannot speak for them but if you follow their instructions they want you to remove the risers from the manifolds to move the water inlets from the front to the back. You then need to change the gaskets. PCV valve hose needs to be longer and I suspect the valve it's self may be one with a 90 degree bend built in. Either way you would think they should be included but who knows....
If you need the instructions I have them but have no scanner,maybe I could take a picture of them and post if you need them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 12:00pm
I just want to add don’t sweat the small stuff, get the Y and the thermostat upper and lower those will be the hard to find items. The expansion tank and heat exchanger will be available from other sources, but if PCM has them get them but the system will revolve around those first 3 parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I just want to add don’t sweat the small stuff, get the Y and the thermostat upper and lower those will be the hard to find items. The expansion tank and heat exchanger will be available from other sources, but if PCM has them get them but the system will revolve around those first 3 parts.


Thanks Gary. I do have the full instruction manual, and upon paying closer attention I realised why they include the riser gaskets, pcv hose, etc. in the kit - as you explained. I also found the full PCM parts manual here, which is very helpful: https://www.marinepartsguys.com/product-tag/pcm-marine-engines/ .

I contacted PCM as you suggested. They referred me to Trans Pacific Distributors (www.transpacificdist.com or www.marinegate.com). These guys seem to have almost all of the parts in the FWC kit parts list available, except for what looks like a few generic pieces of hose. Not sure why PCM discontinued the conversion kit if all the components are still available. Be that as it may, I also enquired from Marine Parts Guys (www.marinepartsguys.com) about the six parts you mentioned in your first post, and they informed me that they are all available. So it looks like I'll get the parts I need from one of those two sources. Thanks again for the help!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 1:42pm
I know marine parts guys do not stock those parts they are dropped shipped from PCM, I suspect the others are the same. Nautique Parts seems to be cheaper on normal parts than them plus you can get 10% off by using planet Nautique as a discount. Might be worth your time to contact them and see if they will ship overseas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 5:58pm
I actually have new old stock R025002 the Y pipe. it is a NLA part.
And I have the thermostat housing that is NLA part also New.
I also have a complete 351 with fresh water on it for sale. not going to seperate it but if one wants a fresh water set up one can get a complete running engine package.[URL= https://panamacity.craigslist.org/bpo/d/panama-city-marine-ford-351-and/6857320127.html
i see you are in South Africa could be a stretch with any parts..
Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-17-2019 at 6:16pm
Is that the upper (RB025009) or lower (R025004) thermostat housing that you have available?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 91nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-19-2019 at 11:31pm
Wilhelm,
I have a few of parts that you need, they are located in Western Australia,$300 US for everything in the pics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 11:21am
So I eventually got all the parts together except the rear heat exchanger bracket (R090038). Also, the part number that I needed to order for the upper thermostat housing assembly (RB025009) was changed to RA025009. Something to do with the separate seal on the RB025009 (part number R047011) having given problems, so the design changed to incorporate a seal in the housing itself, which negates the need for R047011. Be that as it may, I had a rear bracket fabricated to fit the heat exchanger, and my motor is now FWC.

However, the guys who did the installation work for me commented that the size of the heat exchanger is surprisingly small. They are more used to working on Mercruiser motors, where heat exchangers for smaller capacity motors than mine are apparently typically about 50% larger. And subsequent to the FWC conversion, I am now having issues with the motor getting too hot after running at high RPM for a while and then pulling back to idle.

Has anyone else had similar issues? I'm thinking that I may need a larger heat exchanger...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 11:30am
Wilhelm,
How hot is "too hot"?

Regarding the size of the heat exchanger, you can't go totally by physical size. It's all about internal surface area and fluid flow rates.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 11:33am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Wilhelm,
How hot is "too hot"?

Regarding the size of the heat exchanger, you can't go totally by physical size. It's all about internal surface area and fluid flow rates.


Touching 220 degrees Fahrenheit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote outerbanked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 1:33pm
Pics of your engine would help.
I would want to know if they included your exhaust risers (the stock system did not).
Have you done the bucket test with the raw water pump to ensure you are getting correct flow? Have you verified the temps with a infrared temp gun? Checked for kinks? Made sure the hoses are not collapsing under load? Coolant is at proper level?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Do you have the actual instructions or just the parts list? I obviously cannot speak for them but if you follow their instructions they want you to remove the risers from the manifolds to move the water inlets from the front to the back. You then need to change the gaskets. PCV valve hose needs to be longer and I suspect the valve it's self may be one with a 90 degree bend built in. Either way you would think they should be included but who knows....
If you need the instructions I have them but have no scanner,maybe I could take a picture of them and post if you need them.


Gary—if you replaced your iPhone since it took a drink on Deep Lake, there’s a built in scan feature in the camera function. Might be worth a look see. You are really helpful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by outerbanked outerbanked wrote:

Pics of your engine would help.
I would want to know if they included your exhaust risers (the stock system did not).
Have you done the bucket test with the raw water pump to ensure you are getting correct flow? Have you verified the temps with a infrared temp gun? Checked for kinks? Made sure the hoses are not collapsing under load? Coolant is at proper level?


None of the above explicitly, no. I'm reasonably confident the hoses aren't collapsing, and I haven't noticed kinks, but I'll double-check. We replaced the heat exchanger inlet hose with a transparent hose, and there appears to be a good flow of water into the heat exchanger, but I haven't checked the actual flow rate. How does one do the bucket test?

And no, my exhaust risers aren't included - it's just the stock FWC system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 4:55pm
Wilhelm,
Is the exchanger used or new? If used, has it been cleaned? They will "plate" ( a build up of impurities on the heat transfer surfaces) out over time loosing their efficiency.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Wilhelm,
Is the exchanger used or new? If used, has it been cleaned? They will "plate" ( a build up of impurities on the heat transfer surfaces) out over time loosing their efficiency.


Brand new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 5:26pm
Here's a link to a thread on the bucket test

It's testing if the RWP is doing it's job.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-18-2019 at 7:25pm
I happen to have in my stash 2 new heat exchangers,1 for a regular PCM engine and 1 for a GT40. They both measure approx 2" in diameter and 2' long but have different inlets and outlets. The GT 40 one looks to have more tubes inside it. Curious if yours has the same dimensions?

GT40 on the right-





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sport1999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 1:52pm
May be wrong, but I believe the GT40 is a double pass. Where as, the 351w would be a single pass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 4:42pm
Exactly the same as your one on the left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by outerbanked outerbanked wrote:

Pics of your engine would help.
I would want to know if they included your exhaust risers (the stock system did not).
Have you done the bucket test with the raw water pump to ensure you are getting correct flow? Have you verified the temps with a infrared temp gun? Checked for kinks? Made sure the hoses are not collapsing under load? Coolant is at proper level?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 6:48pm
The things that people notice when you put pictures up

Maybe somebody will notice the Chinese HEI distributor with the vacuum advance canister peeking out and say something about it. Or they may question whether the carburetor is marine or automotive.

Just tell them that you're in South Africa and USCG regs don't apply to you, even if it's a good safety thing.

Sparks and explosions/fires don't really know any borders though, so I tend to think an African spark and an American spark can have the same end result in a fuel leak situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 7:02pm
How is the exhaust cooled?

Dry risers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-19-2019 at 8:10pm
Last picture shows the the heat exchanger at the top of the picture.The 1" hose coming down in the middle of the picture with the T is the feed to the manifolds, the green striped hoses are going to the rear of each exhaust manifold. The only differences to PCM's setup is that their heat exchanger is usually mounted along side of the block right behind the raw water pump and the manifolds look more like Crusaders.
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