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Points problem

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norrisdam View Drop Down
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    Posted: May-07-2019 at 11:33pm
I have a 1986 Martinique with a 351 pcm engine. We set the points to proper gauge and 3-4 days later engine starts missing with some backfiring and then boat won’t start. Considering electronic ignition but not sure it’s the best way to go. Any help appreciated. Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 12:00am
I would determine exact cause of failure before making any system changes.

Check the spark strength, could be coil. Timing? Or ballast resistor. Or carb . . .

You could start by checking voltage at + side of coil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 12:40am
Has this been going on since 2013 ?

Here's a link to your thread from back then

link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norrisdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 1:10am
Yes. Same problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 9:12am
Are you missing the ballast resistor? is it there but bypassed? Is the coil stock replacement or something else?

Too low impedance in the system will pull too much current than points can handle for long.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norrisdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 9:45am
No. Ballast resistor not bypassed. Coil is stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 9:52am
Originally posted by norrisdam norrisdam wrote:

I have a 1986 Martinique with a 351 pcm engine. We set the points to proper gauge and 3-4 days later engine starts missing with some backfiring and then boat won’t start. Considering electronic ignition but not sure it’s the best way to go. Any help appreciated. Thanks.


So what do you have to do to get it running again?

Just reset the gap, clean the points, replace the points ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norrisdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 10:02am
Yes. It will run fine for a few days and then it starts acting up. Coil was replaced 12 years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 10:05am
Originally posted by norrisdam norrisdam wrote:

Yes. It will run fine for a few days and then it starts acting up. Coil was replaced 12 years ago.


The question you didn't answer though is What do you do to get it running good again?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norrisdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 10:07am
Also, new ballast resistor in 2013
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norrisdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 10:10am
To get it running good we usually replace plugs, points, cap, rotor and condenser,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 10:33am
Originally posted by norrisdam norrisdam wrote:

To get it running good we usually replace plugs, points, cap, rotor and condenser,


That's a lot to replace every 3 or 4 days of use

What shape are the plugs, points. cap and rotor in when you decide to replace them?

Do you have a brand and part number for the new coil you put in a number of years ago?

You'll probably get all the same opinions you did back in 2013 when you asked about electronic ignition,

What made you decide to stay with points?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norrisdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 11:35am
Points are almost always the problem.
We don’t change everything every 3-4 days..
Not sure on part # for coil.
I stayed with the points because there seems to be a lot of negative vibe on the site about going with electronic ignition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 11:53am
Originally posted by norrisdam norrisdam wrote:


I stayed with the points because there seems to be a lot of negative vibe on the site about going with electronic ignition.


Only from some people

You should be able to get it running good with either points or electronic, but that's your choice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by norrisdam norrisdam wrote:

Points are almost always the problem.
We don’t change everything every 3-4 days..
.

Greg,
How long does the engine sit idle when you get the no start? Have you tried to clean the contact faces of the points when it doesn't start?
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by dockedwages1 dockedwages1 wrote:

I didn’t see corrosion on the breaker points. To be thorough I will clean the points first thing when I get back and then check for spark.

You can't see the corrosion on the point contact faces. It's like looking at stainless steel. You can't see it but the corrosion is there. It's an oxide film that protects stainless from further corrosion.

A quick cleanup by pulling some fine abrasive paper (like 800) through the points may be the answer?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 6:03pm
An emery board nail file is excellent for cleaning points. Just the right size and grit, with the right stiffness to apply a bit of pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by zwoobah zwoobah wrote:

An emery board nail file is excellent for cleaning points. Just the right size and grit, with the right stiffness to apply a bit of pressure.

Emery board grits:
"80 grit – sharp and very rough, used for removing outer gel or acrylic overlays. It’s too rough for natural nails.
180 grit – medium sharp and medium rough, used for preparing nail plate before applying gel or acryl and for shaping artificial nails.
240 grit – not so sharp and rough, for final filing artificial nails. This grit can be used for filing natural nails."
All too coarse of a grit in my opinion. You what to remove the oxide that forms on the contact faces and not the Silver Cadmium plating. It's rumored that with the manufacturing done in China that the plating isn't what it used to be!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2019 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Greg,
I need to ask why? There are problems with them especially with certain brands to the point where some even carry a spare in their boat. If it goes, you are dead in the water. If a point set goes, you can clean them up to get you back home or to the ramp. I went over 20 years on my point set in my 312 Y block without even looking at them. Also, there are no performance gains.


Pete

i think you need to share with the rest of the world your secrets about point systems that let you go 20 plus years without looking under the cap   

Your quote is from norrisdam's thread about his ignition problems in 2013



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 7:01am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:



Pete

i think you need to share with the rest of the world your secrets about point systems that let you go 20 plus years without looking under the cap   

Your quote is from norrisdam's thread about his ignition problems in 2013




Ken,
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

It's rumored with the manufacturing done in China that the plating isn't what it used to be!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 9:35am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:



Pete

i think you need to share with the rest of the world your secrets about point systems that let you go 20 plus years without looking under the cap   

Your quote is from norrisdam's thread about his ignition problems in 2013




Ken,
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

It's rumored with the manufacturing done in China that the plating isn't what it used to be!


Now that's one pretty lame answer Pete.

I guess your "maintenance practices" leave something to be desired
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 10:00am
Back to the problem, electronic ignition will certainly eliminate points failure, so why not?

Sounds like the OP has already spent more money replacing ignition parts than the EI would cost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 10:26am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:



Pete

i think you need to share with the rest of the world your secrets about point systems that let you go 20 plus years without looking under the cap   

Your quote is from norrisdam's thread about his ignition problems in 2013




Ken,
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

It's rumored with the manufacturing done in China that the plating isn't what it used to be!


Now that's one pretty lame answer Pete.

I guess your "maintenance practices" leave something to be desired


I am holding onto my NOS points set in my 85 for dear life. It came in a std rotation screw down Prestolite I bought on ebay in 2007. (I think the guy still has some). Put my reverse rotation gear on and the rest is history. It's got somewhere north of 1200 hours on the points now.

My brothers boat presumably has factory points (they are very very thin). It runs like a top so I have no intention of replacing them until failure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 12:34pm
I guess you're saying you won't be looking under the cap either Zach.

That'll put you in the same "maintenance practices" category as Pete.

Do you think there's been any wear on the rubbing block or pitting on the rotor and cap contacts. You won't know till you look.

What would you call that? I'd call it preventive maintenance

By the way those AC Delco points sets that somebody sent you a few years ago were born before you were.

You should be holding on to them for dear life too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 1:09pm
They are in a very safe place Ken ha.

Look under the cap every year. Dizzy maintinance includes lube on the center pivot and advance mechanism every year or 100 hours. Graphite lube on the points cam too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

They are in a very safe place Ken ha.

Look under the cap every year. Dizzy maintinance includes lube on the center pivot and advance mechanism every year or 100 hours. Graphite lube on the points cam too.


That look under the cap every year is the part that Pete didn't do for 20 or so years.

We won't have to call you L'il Pete now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 3:34pm
Well, getting back to our regularly scheduled programming again

For norrisdam, when's the last time the condenser was changed. If it's not working correctly you can have a weak spark and the points will also get pitted quickly and need cleaning at best and replacing if bad enough.

If the condenser fails completely, you will have no spark at all no matter what you do with the points.

They're cheap, easy to replace and often get ignored when somebody has a points issue.

You could test it and think it's good till some current actually goes through it.

It may cure your issue, it may not but if you're gonna stick with points you should change it if you haven't lately
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


Ken,
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

It's rumored with the manufacturing done in China that the plating isn't what it used to be!

Now that's one pretty lame answer Pete.
[/QUOTE]
Gary,
Sorry to hear you too have lame answers:
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I wonder why so many people lately are having trouble with them? It's not just here or in boats either. Troubles with points are quality of the replacements have slipped.

Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I heard long ago that the quality of today's points and condensers are just not there anymore,.

Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Jeff. I am on my 2nd set of points in 20+ years.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 7:35pm
Let's try just plain old English here Pete

It's not a question of whether point quality has gotten worse over the years, it a question of
what kind of fool goes 20 years without even looking at the points.

With a little attention maybe they would have lasted you a while longer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-09-2019 at 8:16pm


PETE I'M TELLING YOU, IF YOU HAVE POINTS YOU HAVE TO CHECK UNDER THE CAP!!!!!
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   I'm with you Paul !!    This is just too perfect
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