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What would you do?

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poecs13 View Drop Down
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    Posted: May-11-2019 at 1:26pm
I purchased my first Nautique, a 2005 Ski 206, two years ago. In other posts you will see that in the time I've owned it we've been taking care of engine issues since we got it. Appears that the boat has not been in the best care over the course of it's life. At any rate, we got all of the engine issues ironed out and were really excited to replace the vinyl, stereo etc this year and finally have a boat that we could just maintain. Or so we thought...

I have had it out multiple times and have skied several times already this year with no issues. I took it into the dealer to have them give the boat a once over before the heavy summer season. They called me to tell me that the engine had a knock that they suspected to be a bent rod and that the whole engine would either need to be rebuilt or replaced altogether.

Lots of things on my mind...did I miss the knock through the first few months of the year? Is it plausible that it just magically occurred under their care?

I am thinking of taking it for a second opinion to confirm their diagnosis, but if it turns out to be true, my wife wants to get rid of this boat and trade for a newer single-owner boat where we have a more precise idea of the boat's history and how well it's been cared for. (She actually said the words that every man dreams of: "Honey, I think we need to get a new boat.")

The way I see it we have a few options:

A) Rebuild/Replace the engine and keep the boat, knowing that after replacing the entire engine we're not likely to run into many more unexpected issues due to lack of care/maintenance of the engine by previous owners.

B) Sell the boat "as is" and let someone else deal with deciding on how they want to repair it.

C) Repair and sell. And if this option, will rebuilding or replacing the engine get better resale value?

Is there anything else that I'm missing/not thinking of? I have a basic working knowledge of engines but I know there is far greater expertise among the members of this site. Any insight is greatly appreciated!

Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2019 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by poecs13 poecs13 wrote:


I am thinking of taking it for a second opinion to confirm their diagnosis,
Charlie

Charlie,
I feel this is in order. If you do, report back.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-11-2019 at 6:20pm
Charlie

Me and that guy Pete in the other reply to your post usually find ways to disagree on things but not in this case.

From a previous post, it seems that you had it at Buxton Marine before and that's maybe where it is again

To start with, I'd be going there and having them run it for me to be able to hear the knock that you didn't hear in your time using it. I'd want to hear it in the water under normal conditions, not on a hose in their lot or repair bay.

Then like Pete said, get a second opinion about the noise if there is one that's new to you and where it's coming from.

Damper plates, transmissions etc can be a source of some funny noises.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 3:48am
You have good advice already. Listen yourself and if there is a strange noise, get the second opinion.
A 2005 would have one of the GM LS style engines I think?
Those are super durable and run a much improved oiling system. A failure would be pretty odd.
Granted, maybe someone ran it out of oil at some point and caused damage but you said you were sking already and it ran great?
If there is no noise or if a new noise showed up while in the shop it might be worth investigating or bringing in the better business bureau.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 7:02am
Yes, second opinion is in order

They can make some clunking first revolutions of the season and still be good to run, maybe the heard that and need the work?

That vintage should have the lt1 based engine I suspect
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 8:40am
Thank you for the replies so far.

Yes, the engine is the PCM 6L ZR6 based on the GM LS series. When I purchased the boat in June 2017 it had 415 hours and it is now up to 485. Way too young to be requiring a rebuild if it was cared for properly all it's life, right?

As I keep thinking about this, another thought has crossed my mind. Last year I posted about a "strange flooding condition". One of the things that the tech told me over the phone last week is that the cause of the bent rod was likely hydrolock, either water or too much gas in one of the cylinders. Last year, when they weren't able to resolve the flooding issue, my service advisor said that the extra flooding wouldn't do any harm to the engine, I would just have to go through the inconvenience of clearing it with the throttle wide open while starting. He said that they would take another look at it in the spring when I brought it in for annual maintenance. I will admit to my negligence here because I probably should have taken it to another shop at that time or followed some of the suggestions provided by CCF members in that post. Because my service advisor didn't make it seem like a major or urgent issue I decided to do what he advised and live with it until this year. Now I'm wondering if the failure to resolve that issue did cause extra fuel in the cylinders and therefore the bent rod?

I have the day off tomorrow so hopefully will be able to spend some time fully understanding what Buxton believes the issue is and pulling it on to a second opinion. I will keep you all posted!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 10:26am
I’m wondering if a bent rod would present itself by showing lower cylinder pressure on a compression test or even better yet with a bore-o-scope examination (piston not reaching TDC due to loss of rod length caused by hydro lock). Is there any way short of pulling the engine and then the oil pan to examine for hydro lock?

Using some form of localized listening device that I’m not familiar with might pay dividends too. Hope it’s a damper plate or something a bit less costly to alleviate!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 10:29am

This kind of bothers me;

“They called me to tell me that the engine had a knock that they suspected to be a bent rod and that the whole engine would either need to be rebuilt or replaced altogether”

If it’s a bent rod and just one cylinder, why not pull that bad rod and replace it? Even replacing all of them, pistons too— not prohibitively expensive..... as long as you get to the root of the hydro lock (if this is really the root).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 1:16pm
Link? Guessing this is the one
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43319&title=strange-flooding-condition

1) What was causing the flooding?
2) There was no mention of it not turning over (cranking) if it hydro locked would it still be able to crank/turn over with the starter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 2:35pm
Flooding, probably a leaking injector can cause hydro lock. That can bend a connecting rod.
If that is the case the head on that side would need to be removed, the oil pan and that one rod could be pulled and replaced.
Have the piston measured, it may have zero damage.
I have seen this issue before and you can see where the piston is tapping on the cyl head.
Most times the bend in the rod is minor and hard to find but you will see the shiny spot where the piston taps the head and that spot may be small so pay attention on tear down.
To pull the pan off the engine will need to be out of the boat most likely.
GM recommends putting the new piston with new rings in WITHOUT honing the cylinder.
Modern rings like a very smooth cylinder and yours should be perfect for the new rings as is.   If your Fuel leak washed the cylinder wall and caused scuffing on the cylinder wall you will need to hone that cylinder and maybe it would have to be bored to a larger oversize piston. I hope that is not the case.
That 6.0 L LS engine is a beast and very durable. 550 hours is nothing if it is taken care of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 2:46pm
I just went back and read the previous post Gun Driver copied.
You had a bad injector and used the boat for many hours in that condition.
Since power soft the injector was either plugged and not giving you enough fuel or stuck open allowing to much fuel in that cylinder, maybe not closing and leaking while parked.
It may have some cylinder damage but the fact it ran great after the repair points to it being in pretty good shape.
You might check compression in they cylinder before tearing anything apart.
It needs to be within 10% of your other cylinders.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GHTILL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-12-2019 at 9:47pm
Curious as to where you first purchased this boat? Was it through Buxton? I have recently had some service work done there and wasn't very impressed. I have delt with these guys for years and have never had any problems up until now. Don't want to bad mouth anyone but......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GHTILL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-13-2019 at 10:36am
Sorry after further research I noted that you had not originally purchased the boat from Buxton. We have a total of 5 boats from them. Most of them used,but maintained by them.
I just think their service dept is getting a little too overwhelmed by the volume they are doing right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-13-2019 at 11:14am
Originally posted by GHTILL GHTILL wrote:

Sorry after further research I noted that you had not originally purchased the boat from Buxton. We have a total of 5 boats from them. Most of them used,but maintained by them.
I just think their service dept is getting a little too overwhelmed by the volume they are doing right now.


It’s got to be tough to hire qualified marine mechanics in this economy! How do you keep them in November-March?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-13-2019 at 6:35pm
Went to Buxton this morning, the knock is indeed there and it most definitely was not there when I dropped it off. I definitely would have noticed it. The tech explained to me that after he swapped out the oil, filter, impeller and trans fluid, he went to fire the engine for the first time and it hydrolocked instantly. When he opened up the cylinder, gas was found. After he cleared it and restarted the knock was there, and bent rod is still the suspect. I did take it for a second opinion from an independent mechanic and he agreed that a bent rod is likely the issue and rebuild would be required.

Is it possible that my flooding issue from last year was the root cause of the excess fuel? I believe the tech I work with at Buxton is fantastic but the service advisor is the one who led me to believe that the flooding wouldn't do any permanent damage to the engine. Am I way off base here in thinking that the two issues are related?

I will also note that I have been amazed at how poor the level of customer service has been at Buxton. I have had to initiate every single contact, and they have made no apology or attempt to resolve the fact that the rod bent under their care. Their one saving grace with my experience has been the tech who spent the longest amount of time with me explaining everything. I have a feeling that selling G-series boats with six-digit price tags is a lot more important to the company than servicing 15 year old ski boats.

So where to from here? My wife is strongly in the camp of selling as-is and getting a new boat altogether. Any other ideas/options I should pursue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-13-2019 at 7:35pm
So yeah the entire fuel system likely needs to be cleaned out - and the injectors replaced along with pulling the engine and dropping in a new rod/piston.   Any chance Buxton has something on the lot you want to buy? Maybe they are willing to work with you and not discount your boat as a trade so much/make a bit less on the sale to keep you from taking too big a hit.   Keeping a boating wife a happy wife has some value.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-13-2019 at 7:41pm
That thought had crossed my mind. Unfortunately, the only ski boats they have are closed bow which is a dealbreaker for us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2019 at 11:17am
If it is a good boat fix the engine and move on.
As mentioned those are great engines and run a long time.
You could have the one rod changed and be back in business.
You don't need a Marine shop to do this.   Every GM and GMC Truck, Suburban and Tahoe run the same type engine. Any good shop can fix the Rod for you.
Since it is hydrolock damage the rest of the engine should be just fine.
The piston in the bad cylinder may be fine also. A machine shop can measure it and tell you.
Why it got damaged? Good Question.   The shop may have had bad luck and just because they were the next one to turn the key they bent the rod.
The injectors are pretty bullet proof normally unless PCM changed away from the OEM injector in these engines.
A boat engine pops out with little drama compared to the same engine in a car so it should not take that many shop hours to repair this engine. My 2 cents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2019 at 5:33pm
What exactly is involved in removing the engine, getting it ready to be re-built by a machine shop and then reinstalling? Buxton said it would be about $6000 to get all of that done. I just spoke to a shop that will do the rebuild for $2000, but I would have to bring them a pulled engine. I am quite handy but have never tackled any sort of major engine work before. What would I need to be able to do in order to remove and reinstall the engine? And how much time involved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2019 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by poecs13 poecs13 wrote:

. What would I need to be able to do in order to remove and reinstall the engine? And how much time involved?

Charles,
It sounds like you are pretty mechanically inclined so pulling the engine yourself may not be a bad idea. The biggest issue for you would have a means of hoisting the engine out of the boat. Some have rented engine hoists or built gantries or even used a big tree to attach a hoist to!! Beyond that, it's a matter of disconnecting electrics and mechanicals. Once you get the engine back, the order is reversed and then you'll need to do an engine alignment to the prop shaft.


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Are there any how-to guides, tutorials or recommended resources? Any special tools required beyond wrenches and socket set? If I'm going to take this on, just want to know what I'm getting into!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2019 at 9:46pm
I think there's a story about what happened at the dealer but unfortunately you'll never hear it and we won't either

You brought it in with no knock and now it has one

The skeptical little voice in my head says there was some human error involved in this happening right after an oil change and maybe the knock is from a spun bearing 'cause somebody forgot to put new oil in till he heard some funky noises, shut it off and by then the damage was done. Then put the new oil in and tell the customer he has a bad knock.

Hopefully the 2000 dollar quote is to tear it down completely and inspect/ rebuild everything or you may be in for a surprise or 2

Hopefully too, I'm all screwed up and totally out to lunch but like the first sentence says, I don't think you'll ever know what really happened.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2019 at 10:29pm
I don't know Buxton, but busy new boat dealers don't really want this kind of work, it ties up a ton of time that can be spent on things they view as more profitable. I'd definitely pull the engine yourself, it is not hard and I'd recommend you get a mechanically inclined friend to lend a hand, that way when putting it back in you'll have "backup" in terms of any doubts you have. A reputable rebuilder will do a good job, I'm guessing you'll spend more than $2,000, maybe it turns into $3,000, but a 206 in good shape is well worth it IMO. And you know from experience what a great engine that is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2019 at 11:34pm
Thinking more about your failure all we know is it hydrolocked. It may have been water and not fuel causing the hydrolock situation.   Exhaust manifold failures have caused water in these engines before. Better have them checked and ruled out as a cause.
How many hours are on this engine? If under 700 I would patch it not rebuild it.
You need a new connecting rod and a gasket set not a rebuild unless there is more to this story.   Has water been found in your oil?
Was this engine overheated at some point?
If the answer is no to these questions just get it fixed.
When they pull the head off, yes one head on the one bad side they will see if it is fuel or water in there and you will know more.
Pulling the engine, if you have a hoist and a good set of tools with basic knowledge.
1-3 hours. Truck it over to a machine shop, have them pull the piston and rod, inspect the parts and put it back together Probably 4-6 hours to put it back in since nothing ever goes back as easy as it comes apart and get back on the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-15-2019 at 11:42pm
Mark, in an above post Charlie said:

"When I purchased the boat in June 2017 it had 415 hours and it is now up to 485. Way too young to be requiring a rebuild if it was cared for properly all it's life, right?"

So he doesn't have the benefit of knowing if it was overheated, or any other past problems. I'm thinking you pull the engine, hand it off to a rebuilder, after partial tear down get their opinion on what they see and decide whether to do a full rebuild then or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smithfamily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2019 at 7:33am
If youre pulling the engine out rebuild right and KNOW what your putting back in. If you sell as-is, you will take a bath. If you fix it and the wife still has doubts, sell it and move on. I bought my 92 with a blown head gasket. Based upon the (Outrageous) dealer repair quote given to the previous owner, I based my purchase price. (Running 92 minus the estimate was established value) I pulled the motor with help, (LOTS of Help HERE!) had it rebuilt ($2,000.00 in 2010) put it back in, and went skiing. Still skiing. You can do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2019 at 8:05am
I would be a fan of handling this rebuild yourself. First reason being, if there was something funky going on at Buxton a reputable machine shop will tell you the rod is A-ok and the bearing was spun or damaged due to lack of oil (would then be their fault).

I would have them document the engine serial number and possibly casting numbers on their work order before you sign it refusing their work.

Most of your external engine parts are very easy to remove/install and could be handled by anyone somewhat mechanical. The more you pull off before going to the machine shop the less money you will spend. You can clean up/prep all of the pieces you keep at home at your leisure. Label all wiring you remove so you remember where it goes.

The only part that will require a special tool would be distributor installation and timing adjustment on this engine. (I forget the procedure now for an EFI 5.7)

When the engine goes back in there are plenty of shaft alignment threads and even a video by Pete himself so that would be easily handled when you understand the concept.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2019 at 8:30am
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:


The only part that will require a special tool would be distributor installation and timing adjustment on this engine. (I forget the procedure now for an EFI 5.7)


Since he has a 6.0 ZR6 engine would that maybe make this statement "not exactly right"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2019 at 8:44am
Whoops, thought I saw 5.7. Even easier then !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samudj01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2019 at 9:44am
Take lots (and then more) pics before teardown and during. You will love them in a few weeks or months. These guys will get you through it. They did us well but there is no substitute for pics of how it was before!
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