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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2019 at 3:45pm
If you are even a little mechanically inclined the R &R of your engine is fairly straightforward - as was said biggest issue may be hoisting it out of the boat. And yes, take lots of pics - before unplugging/ disconnecting and after as well.
I'd certainly remove as much of the interior as possible in & around the work area since it doesn't take much to damage the skins. I'd also cover your carpet with a poly tarp and tape it down as best you can - oil & grease can and will soak right through canvas.

Finally, be sure you get an exact explanation, in writing, of everything the machine shop is actually going to do to the engine. $2k seems really cheap for everything that should be done. Or at least as Ken indicated, they should be tearing it completely down to CHECK for spun bearings and the like. That in and of itself is a lot of labor. My 2 cents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-16-2019 at 7:01pm
485 hours, the inside of that engine should be nearly new if it was well cared for.
The guys are right, you won't know till someone qualified opens if up.
A rookie opening it up may not notice what actually happened in there.

If it is just a bent rod, that is all I would replace but then you need to find what caused it or it will happen again, with a rebuild or not the cause is still in that engine unless Ken is correct and a mechanic made a big boo boo causing this issue.
Tear down will tell you everything.
I have a lot of internal engine experience, If I pulled the oil pan and the bearing was perfect on this bad connecting rod I would not even inspect the others. They will be in the same shape. If that rod did spin a bearing then absolutely you are tearing it all the way down.
When the head comes off the gasket can be examined to see if it had failed letting coolant in to that cylinder. Read the piston head, the carbon build up or lack of carbon build up will tell you how that cylinder was running. When the head comes off all 4 cylinders should look the same. One bent rod that knocks will leave witness marks on the head and piston top where they have been touching.
If that cylinder had fuel leaking or coolant leaking in it will not look the same, it will be much cleaner. Less carbon build up. and may look washed clean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2019 at 7:19pm
Thank you all for the valuable feedback and input. I've done some reading online and have this book on the way from Amazon. I've decided that I'm up for the challenge and am going to tackle the pull and teardown.

On a quick browse of Craigslist today, I happened upon this listing.

Would I be able to do a straight swap and solve my problem? And then part out the stuff that isn't broken on what I have? Or is that just asking for trouble?

Heading into Memorial Day weekend without a working boat is just about killing me and I want to get back on the water ASAP! If I were able to swap these parts in, that would eliminate time spent in the shop and I'd be able to teardown and rebuild the same day, right?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2019 at 1:34am
Since you really don't know for sure what's wrong with the engine yet, I think I'd get it out of the boat and figure out what's wrong before buying something like that short block.

If your days in Texas last about 96 hours or so, you may get it done in a day

You'll probably spend most of the first day scratching your head, figuring things out, taking pictures,labeling things and getting the engine out and getting into the disassembly process to figure out what's wrong.

I'd also tell myself the lake or river will be way too crowded on the holiday weekend and it wouldn't be a big deal to miss the boating and get everything right the first time instead of rushing through it and missing something and getting to do it all over again

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2019 at 10:03pm
Been a busy weekend! Built a gantry, pulled the motor, and stripped it down to the long block. Dropping it off at the machine shop tomorrow AM! Thanks all for the words of encouragement, I ran into few issues along the way and documented as the engine came apart. Hoping that reassembly will be just as smooth!

While I was stripping the engine down, I managed to only break one part. I'm not exactly sure what it is though, can someone help identify? It's a small hose that connects the intake manifold to the starboard head near the front end of the engine. Picture shown here:




For your viewing pleasure:

Engine Lifted

Engine Loaded

Engine before:


Stripped to long block:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-22-2019 at 8:44pm
it's been a while, how did this turn out?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2019 at 1:10am
Hey Ken! Thanks for checking in!

I suppose that I should have mentioned that my wife and I like to escape the Texas heat in June and July and have been up in the northeast. When I dropped the engine off before we left I told them I wouldn't be back for it until August. So the project has had a bit of a hiatus. I expect they'll be working it into their queue soon. I will call in at the end of the week to see if they have a diagnosis and cause which I know we are all curious about!

The plan at the moment is to pick up the engine and reassemble it on August 7. Hope to drop it back into the boat that weekend on the 10th and be back in business.

Resurfacing this post reminds me...was anyone able to identify my broken part in the picture above?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2019 at 7:50am
Call early, they probably stuffed it in the back corner somewhere and need a reminder

It seems like our Northeast heat lately has been doing a bit of a Texas imitation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2019 at 8:27am
I think it's a breather tube that's part of the PCV system.

In the link below is a ZR6 parts manual that might be handy to have.

Look at the diagram on page 8, part 50

link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2019 at 10:48am
Okay, yes, that's definitely the part in question. However, it's not the tube itself that's broken, but the plastic elbow that comes off of the manifold, which you can see in my picture. I will need to double check when I get back to Dallas, but looking at the diagram, I am fearful that the elbow itself doesn't exist as a separate part and the entire manifold would require replacement, which I'm assuming is likely to be an expensive part.

If the elbow doesn't exist as a separate part, could it be repaired with some type of adhesive? Is that tube under any sort of major pressure when the engine is on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2019 at 11:03am
It should be relatively easy for your machine shop to replace the elbow in the manifold, either with a press in elbow or by tapping the hole and using a screw in fitting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-30-2019 at 7:54pm
Spoke with the machine shop today, it did end up being a bent rod due to hydrolock. They will be re-assembling Monday next week and I'll be picking up on Wednesday. Should be able to put all of the external parts back on and have it ready to drop back into the boat on Saturday. Any words of wisdom/advice on realigning the engine?

The only thing that remains is to identify the cause of my hydrolock. I'm thinking I need to start with the fuel injectors. How does one go about diagnosing those?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-30-2019 at 8:16pm
In your May 13th post you said that Buxton determined that it was gas in the cylinder, so the injectors seem like the likely starting point.

You must have an outfit locally that can test the injectors and rebuild as necessary or you could buy new injectors. The machine shop should be able to tell you where to go for that.

You know which cylinder and injector caused the problem, but I'd get all 8 tested.

How much are they replacing in the engine just out of curiosity?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-30-2019 at 8:53pm
What machine shop did you use?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 10:23pm
From the shop that worked the injectors today:
"One of them was stuck wide open. The first set of four took four cleanings before they flowed correctly. The second set took three cleanings to flow correctly. They all seem to be flowing within two to three cc's of each other now. That is about normal and none are sticking open."

So it appears that the wide open injector is the cause of this whole mess. One thing that's a little strange is that Buxton allegedly had all of the injectors cleaned (and one fully replaced) last summer. Do I need to look at just replacing all of them? What is the life expectancy of fuel injectors?

Trey, ended up going with Wells Cylinder Heads in Midlothian. Jamie owns the shop and was really patient in explaining the process and answering a ton of newbie questions. Educating the customer goes a long way with me. They did a full rebuild replacing everything except the crankshaft and camshaft.

Cautiously optimistic that I'll be skiing this weekend. Fingers crossed!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 10:30pm
Well at least you know the cause now and it's fixed.

It sounds like the injectors are all good following the cleaning.

I'd verify with the shop that they don't need to be replaced following the cleaning

Get to work on it, it Thursday night
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 10:27am
Sounds like you have a fuel quality issue with wherever you get it? Injectors don't really fail all that often. I would consider a swap of where the fuel comes from or an additive every few tanks or so to keep those clean and lubed up.

On my carby boats I try to run one can of Seafoam a season in one tank just to keep them clean. I haven't really ever had issues but the only thing I have seen keep a snowmobile carb clean was Seafoam.

I would look at an additive that had some type of lubricity for the fuel system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 11:16am
Fuel quality is an interesting thought...

The PCM manual makes a pretty big deal about ethanol free gasoline. How mission critical is that? Frankly, the only place I was able to find that has ethanol free gas may not have the newest tanks and plumbing.

Fortunately a Sam's Club has recently started supplying ethanol free gasoline so I will definitely switch over to picking up from there.

Is staying ethanol-free important for these motors?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 11:27am
If they say so I would assume the seals and such aren't ethanol compatible.

I don't run it in my Carb boats now but I never had issues with it degrading things but they have all been updated to newer fuel lines/carb gaskets and seals etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 11:28am
Originally posted by poecs13 poecs13 wrote:

Fuel quality is an interesting thought...

Is staying ethanol-free important for these motors?

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by tryathlete tryathlete wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by tryathlete tryathlete wrote:

I ran only ethanol free premium always because I don’t like what happens to ethanol over the winter even with stabil. Why risk it? Ethanol is junk.

I've run ethanol in everything since it's inception and haven't had one problem. It's great stuff.


Hope you’re not serious. Maybe just run straight ethanol then Pete. Great stuff!

Peter,
I'm very serious. Again, I've used it since it's inception and NO problems.


You know I hate to agree with you Pete (Brainard), it really pains me at times

But I'm feelin' real pained right now since I completely agree with your ethanol experiences all year round. And I'm being serious.

I'm talking about today's gas with 10% ethanol No issues





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 11:46am
Pete, pure gasoline is better than any hybrid mixed with biofuels and the reasoning for blended ethanol fuels makes no economic or environmental sense except to farmers who grow corn for ethanol.

I think you should consider supporting your passion for biofuels by running E-85. Its 105 octane and you could run insane compression ratios!

In all seriousness, I have never had a fuel problem with an automobile. It’s just our boats and small engines that may have fuel sitting in them for days (and months in winter) and ethanol fuels are less stable than pure gasoline. It’s probably better to drain and use than to store E-10 over our northern winters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 11:56am
Originally posted by poecs13 poecs13 wrote:



The PCM manual makes a pretty big deal about ethanol free gasoline. How mission critical is that?   


PCM has a history of putting that stuff in their manuals. It’s their lawyers covering their backs. In the late 80’s they told you not to use unleaded gasoline when it already had been fazed out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 3:24pm
Glad you are makng progress. I add a quart of Tranny Fluid, standard ATF to a full tank of gas at the beginning of every year. It helps clean and lubricate injectors.   It is not recommended because it is not EPA approved. Talk to any old diesel mechanic and they will tell you it has been used for years for this purpose.
I first heard of this in the 1980's, something was changed in diesel fuel and they started having injector issues everywhere. Adding the ATF lubricated and protected the injectors against these failures.
On my fuel injected vehicles if they get an odd idle issue I first add the ATF to the gas tank and many times the idle issue goes away for good. You need to run the tank of gas through the engine to see results.
If you doubt the effectiveness of ATF, next time your hands are really greasy pour a little ATF on them, it will break down the grease as fast as a good hand cleaner but it also has lubricating ability. Don't actually do this as the AFT can will tell you it is bad for your health to have ATF on your skin but it does a nice job cleaning and lubricating injectors.
It is good preventative maintenance for a fuel injected engine. You will never detect any smoke out the exhaust or any other effect from running the ATF.   I have used this on our BMW's, Chevy's, Fords, my son's Audi.   Just once a year or so for preventative maintenance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Faceplant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 11:28pm
I do the ATF jingle in my Detroit diesel as well .
Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2019 at 8:19pm
I can hardly believe it, but I had a VERY smooth install and we had it back on the water yesterday. Thanks to all for the words of encouragement and support, I saved several thousand dollars in shop labor by tackling the bulk of this project myself. Couldn't have done it without the wisdom of CCF!

The only issue that remains to tackle is that it is still exhibiting the exact same flooding problem that occurred prior to the bent rod. Would REALLY like to get this resolved so I don't have to repeat this project. As a reminder: the engine will start perfectly on a cold start. If restarting the motor after being off for ten to fifteen minutes, it will crank and crank but will not start until the throttle is moved to WOT, which means that we are flooding somewhere.

I pulled the boat home to Dallas last night intending to do some testing today in the drive way. Oddly enough, I could not re-create the problem today in the drive way. I would run the engine, stop it for 15 minutes, and then it would start perfectly again. Granted, I only idled it in the driveway, it was not under any sort of load or increased RPMs. The only other thing that has changed since yesterday is that I re-filled the gas tank on my way home from the lake. It only had about a quarter tank left.

I did get a fuel pressure gauge and did a leak down test. Results were consistent three separate times and are as follows:

62PSI with engine on @ idle
56PSI, 0 minutes after engine off
50PSI, 2.5 minutes after engine off
44PSI, 5 minutes after engine off
38PSI, 10 minutes after engine off
34PSI, 15minutes after engine off

I was not able to find any specific info regarding what to expect from the ZR6 fuel pressure. Are these specs available anywhere? Does this seem like a normal reduction in pressure following the engine turning off?

My plan for tomorrow is to try to re-create the problem again on a lake. If it shows, I will probably pull the injectors and have them re-tested again to see if one of them has failed again already. If everything is good tomorrow, chock it up to old gas that has been crying in the tank all summer wishing it were being used? Any other ideas on what could be creating the flood?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Treybizttu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2019 at 1:02pm
Any progress?

I'm out of town this week but local to you if you need a hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2019 at 1:20pm
I hate to spend other peoples money - but I would not put one more penny into those injectors pick up new set and go skiing. Often times there are aftermarket alternatives that are cheaper than the automotive oem. Certainly don't pay PCM prices but get you some new crispy crisp injectulators.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2019 at 1:24pm
Agree with Joe, the only way an EFI engine can flood while off would be injectors. May also be possible to leak pressure out of the fuel pressure regulator if it uses manifold vacuum as the signal. Otherwise that's about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2019 at 2:27pm
+2 And if one is known to have started acting up you don’t want it to lean out and melt a new piston either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poecs13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2019 at 10:21pm
The injectors were tested again on Tuesday and #1 had failed entirely, stuck wide open, so that's the culprit.

I spent the rest of the day trying to track down the automotive equivalent to no avail. I called three separate PCM dealers and no one could tell me how to cross-reference the part. The closest thing I was able to find in an auto parts store looked identical, except that it had two holes in the bottom vs my injectors having four. If anyone can fill me in on how to properly cross-reference the part, I would be grateful! From what I can tell, the 2005 ZR6 is based on GM's LQ4 model of the LS series. There are no identifying marks or model numbers on the injectors themselves. I've been searching by trying to find fuel injectors for a 2003-2005 Chevy 2500HD pickup. Any other ideas?

So I have a brand new PCM injector on the way from Miami Nautique to the tune of $200. I love the idea of replacing the other seven, but the $1400 price tag for that is a bit tough to swallow. How important is it that the other seven are replaced?

I will get back to town Saturday morning, install the new injector, and hopefully close the books on this one.
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