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351W will not rev past 4000rpm - ideas?

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    Posted: June-02-2019 at 9:19pm
'68 Mustang with a mid-70s wintage 351W. Holley 4160 carb and MSD blaster coil/wires.

Finally got a working tach installed today. Boat pulls strong until 4000rpm and then stumbles/will not rev higher. This equates to 41mph on GPS.

Diagnostic plans for next weekend:
1. New inline fuel filter. Tank definitely has some rust in it.
2. Get boat warmed up and then unplug auto choke. Choke is wired in with the 12v supply to the coil. Coil does have a resistor.
3. Maybe new dist cap/rotor? I have no maintenance history on these. Can anyone identify my distributor?

Anything else I should tackle? The boat is on a lake 2.5hr away, so I need to order parts ahead of time and bring them with me.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimsport93 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-02-2019 at 9:42pm
What prop are you spinning ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-02-2019 at 9:42pm
Chris,
Describe the "stumble". Does the engine seem to falter/miss or will it just not get past the 4000 rpm? You got the boat in October so have you had it out on the water much or is this the first time? I ask since if it is the first time and the engine just won't get past the 4000, I wonder how it's propped. What prop is on it?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-02-2019 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by zwoobah zwoobah wrote:

'68 Mustang with a mid-70s wintage 351W. Holley 4160 carb and MSD blaster coil/wires.

Finally got a working tach installed today. Boat pulls strong until 4000rpm and then stumbles/will not rev higher. This equates to 41mph on GPS.

Diagnostic plans for next weekend:
1. New inline fuel filter. Tank definitely has some rust in it.
2. Get boat warmed up and then unplug auto choke. Choke is wired in with the 12v supply to the coil. Coil does have a resistor.
3. Maybe new dist cap/rotor? I have no maintenance history on these. Can anyone identify my distributor?

Anything else I should tackle? The boat is on a lake 2.5hr away, so I need to order parts ahead of time and bring them with me.








Unplugging the choke will be the wrong thing to do because without 12 ish volts going to it, it will want to go shut and the engine will run like crap to put it in plain easy to understand english. It's normal to be wired with the 12 volt supply to the coil.

The distributor is a Prestolite with the clip down cap and the 2 wires coming out of it tells me that you have an electronic module under the cap

In no particular order I'd be figuring out what the prop dimensions are, checking the timing at idle and seeing that it advances with RPM and seeing what your total advance is.

Commander has that distributor advance spec at 6 degrees BTDC at idle of 600 -650 rpm or so and that will probably give you a total advance around 30 or so.

If you bump the initial up to 10 to 12 degrees that'll add 4 to 6 degrees to the total and improve things. Around 34 is good for total advance, 36 if you want to push it and use good gas.

Check the springs/flyweights under the advance mechanism to be sure they're not rusted and/or stuck or broken and limiting your advance.

You could also verify that the secondaries open. You have to do this under load on the water.Here's a link below that will tell you how to easily check the opening and it'll also tell you that they won't fully open with a 600 Holley on a 351

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-02-2019 at 10:41pm
You could also post the list number on the air horn on the carburetor or better yet post a picture to figure out just what you have there.

Here's a picture to show where the list number is.

Somebody's bound to ask if it's a marine carburetor and the list number will tell if it is.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-02-2019 at 11:02pm
Jim/Pete/Ken - great suggestions, thanks.

I think the prop is stock. I’ll check for markings next weekend.

I’ll bring my timing light up to the lake next week and will fiddle with the timing a bit. I always run 93 octane in my toys as most of them require it. I’ll also order a new cap/rotor.

I’ll also have a passenger check my secondaries and will get the carb numbers. The carb was rebuilt last summer by a friend of the previous owner, so hopefully it just needs a bit of adjustment.

Pete - you are right, I’ve only owned the boat a short time. I’ve put seven hours of run time on it so far, mostly this spring. Currently it sputters at 4000rpm and will not go any further while under load. This feels like an engine issue more than a top speed/prop issue. It comes out of the hole OK but doesn’t slam me back in the seat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 5:00am
A couple more things to ponder. Are the 4 barrel secondaries opening?
How old is the gas in that boat, with all the sitting you may be trying to run it on 2 year old gas.
When you hook up the timing light verify that your timing does advance as it is supposed to. Set your timing at idle as already instructed and then increase RPM slowly while watching your timing marks, you should see the timing advance smoothly as you increase the RPM. It will stop advancing somewhere between 3,000 and 3,600 most likely but if you do this record what you see.   A dial back timing light would allow you to know exactly how much advance you have.
A little rust can really mess up your distributor advance mechanism but is easy to fix.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 7:48am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

A couple more things to ponder. Are the 4 barrel secondaries opening?
How old is the gas in that boat, with all the sitting you may be trying to run it on 2 year old gas.
When you hook up the timing light verify that your timing does advance as it is supposed to. Set your timing at idle as already instructed and then increase RPM slowly while watching your timing marks, you should see the timing advance smoothly as you increase the RPM. It will stop advancing somewhere between 3,000 and 3,600 most likely but if you do this record what you see.   A dial back timing light would allow you to know exactly how much advance you have.
A little rust can really mess up your distributor advance mechanism but is easy to fix.


You really should read the whole thread before giving him some more things to ponder, which have already been mentioned
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 3:40pm
Follow up: If the secondaries are not opening, what do I adjust?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 5:10pm
If the boat stumbles as mentioned at the beginning at 4,000 RPM or so it is not the 4bbl not opening.   You can run it on 2 barrells and it will run perfect at all speeds, it will just be down on power at high RPM.
Maybe as much as 25-30%.   You would not notice till you try to accelerate real hard.

You asked how to check to see if the 4bbl is opening.
If you are on the lake, lift the engine cover and have the passenger watch the 4 bbl as you accelerate. You should hear and see the secondary open.
A vacuum pot will pull up on the secondary at wide open throttle. It must be under load for this to happen.   If it does not open you can turn it open manually while accelerating on the lake to see if your power picks up like normal.

Starting to run bad at 4,000 RPM indicates other issues.
I would still start by confirming the distributor is working correctly and the advance is giving you proper timing maxing out as stated already in this forum to be 34, safe 36 on the max side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

A couple more things to ponder. Are the 4 barrel secondaries opening?
How old is the gas in that boat, with all the sitting you may be trying to run it on 2 year old gas.
When you hook up the timing light verify that your timing does advance as it is supposed to. Set your timing at idle as already instructed and then increase RPM slowly while watching your timing marks, you should see the timing advance smoothly as you increase the RPM. It will stop advancing somewhere between 3,000 and 3,600 most likely but if you do this record what you see.   A dial back timing light would allow you to know exactly how much advance you have.
A little rust can really mess up your distributor advance mechanism but is easy to fix.


You really should read the whole thread before giving him some more things to ponder, which have already been mentioned


I'm with Ken x2! And he didn't ask how to see if secondaries are opening, he asked what to do if they don't!

I'm putting my 14 cent bet on distributor advance hanging up after partially advancing. Follow all the great advice above and I don't believe this will be a hard one to get straightened out. And then I'll be anxious to hear how the 16' boat is responding to the 351!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by 63 Skier 63 Skier wrote:

   I'll be anxious to hear how the 16' boat is responding to the 351!

Me too!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by zwoobah zwoobah wrote:

Follow up: If the secondaries are not opening, what do I adjust?


One thing you could do is look at the instructions in the link below and pay special attention to the part about restricting orifice / ball check valve. Some have the orifice, some have the ball check. Sometimes people unknowingly lose the ball when they take it apart Page 13 and 14 talk about vacuum secondaries and their disassembly /reassembly. There's a little cork gasket that can get squashed and block the sensing passage or get left out and affect the vacuum signal to the diaphragm

link

But ...............also what you should really do is get one of the dozen or so Holly Carb Tuning Books that are available.. Click on the link below to see some of them

You'll learn a lot from any of them. Plenty of pictures and good explanations and exploded views

Should probably mention also that the diaphragm can be torn/cracked

link

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2019 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


If you are on the lake, lift the engine cover and have the passenger watch the 4 bbl as you accelerate. You should hear and see the secondary open.
A vacuum pot will pull up on the secondary at wide open throttle. It must be under load for this to happen.


Chris,
Unless I missed something, you haven't mentioned how you checked to see if the secondary is opening. As Mark mentions, the engine needs to be under load.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 1:06am
Thanks everyone.

Here’s my plan:
1. Replace inline fuel filter
2. Check that secondary diaphragm is intact
3. Check idle and 3600rpm timing, adjust to 10btdc at idle
4. Check advance mechanism/springs and cap/rotor
5. Check that choke plate opens fully after key is switched on for a bit
6. Use the zip tie method that Ken posted to see if secondaries are opening under load

Hopefully this will get her straightened out. She starts and runs sweet.

What is the recommended redline on this motor? Just a bit over 5000rpm? Supppsedly it was installed in the mid-70s after the original 289 froze and cracked during winter. I have no details on cam or valve springs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 1:41am
My 78 Nautique 351W had a max RPM listed on the valve cover of 4,600 if my memory is correct.
With a set of performance heads I ran that engine many times up to 5,300+.
With a 13x14 prop MPH was above 50, almost 55.   The rest of this engine was stock.
I sold it with 1,500 hours on it still running very strong. Put the new heads on at 900 Hours.
A good running 351W should give your boat a lot of pop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 8:10am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


If you are on the lake, lift the engine cover and have the passenger watch the 4 bbl as you accelerate. You should hear and see the secondary open.
A vacuum pot will pull up on the secondary at wide open throttle. It must be under load for this to happen.


Chris,
Unless I missed something, you haven't mentioned how you checked to see if the secondary is opening. As Mark mentions, the engine needs to be under load.


Well Pete, you did miss something since he hasn't checked yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 9:21am
#1 is a good idea if condition is unknown.

So is checking the initial and final timing. Set initial to dial in the final... 34 or so being ideal. 10-14 on the initial will usually runnpretty good... but depending on how much advance you’re getting, you may need to compromise on those numbers. Just don’t exceed 36 total.

On the secondaries, all those checks are fine I guess, but the first 2 things I’d do would be to check and see if the butterflies are stuck (and how they feel when moved if not) - this can be done engine off. If all seems fine then go for a ride and see if they’re getting pulled in by inspecting. This requires a helper and reasonably calm water. Operate them manually if they aren’t working or weak (not pulling in all the way). This will tell you what to focus on for the fix.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 11:08am
Thanks Mark. I’ll keep her under 5000 until I feel her out.

Ken/Pete - my boat is 2.5hr north, wont be able to check anything until this weekend :)

Tim - good point, I’ll move the secondaries by hand first. I’m not crazy about the idea of going down the lake at 35mph with my engine cover open. It sits up pretty high and will catch a ton of wind. Gonna try the zip tie method first, if that doesn’t give clear results I’ll remove the engine cover and get eyes on the secondaries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 11:23am
Removing the engine cover solves the wind issue, and makes all this diagnosis really easy.

If you don't mind my asking, where do you keep the boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 12:03pm
Boat is in Wakefield NH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 2:31pm
My 78 was a Ski Nautique and the cover may be a little smaller than your cover.
I did run it several times with the cover up as I worked out problems with a Holley 4bbl.   Finally got it dialed in with the 4bbl opening on time as needed and never had to do it again.   My lake is only 10 minutes away so taking it out for a test run was not a big deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by zwoobah zwoobah wrote:

I’m not crazy about the idea of going down the lake at 35mph with my engine cover open.

To each his own, standard practice for troubleshooting a problem like that here. Have done it many, many times. One quick ride gets you pointed in the right direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 5:03pm
I thought I'd stay out of the engine cover discussion and ask if you know how to check that the secondaries will open by hand when the engine is OFF?

I'd tell you how but you may already know. And besides 2 more people would give you the same answer right after I did that.

I'll save my breath for now.

And no need to ask anything like "why won't my engine hit 5300 rpm" like MrMcD's obviously super powerful 351 that was turning a 13X14 prop at that speed and going 50 to almost 55 mph. That tells me he had some terrible prop efficiency with 22% slip at best..

The run of the mill 240 HP 351w from PCM, Indmar etc has a max of 4400 rpm but a little higher isn'r gonna hurt it. Your engine will be happy at 4500 rpm.if it's stock

Maybe his tach read high

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 5:38pm
Keno, my 78 did run great, the heads bumped compression quite a bit with small chambers but they were professionally ported with big valves, came off a friends race motor, it needed premium fuel but it ran great. Pinged like crazy on regular.
I did not have GPS in 1982 and who knows if the tach or speedo was accurate
The owner of West Coast Correct Craft ran a Nautique with a 454 back then and I walked him more than once crossing Folsom Lake in the evenings after work.
He tried more than once and never outran me. His was a 1981, I think it had the same exact hull as my 78.
We would ski or barefoot till dark and then make the fast dash accross the lake to the dock.
His was stronger pulling barefooters although my 351 easily pulled my buddy who liked to one foot at 43 mph. His new at the time 1982 351 powered 351W stock could not do that.
The older hull rides like a brick but they are lighter and faster than the newer hulls a 13x13 ran the RPM too high for me so I used the 13x14 and liked it a lot. We ran at 500-1500 elevation most times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2019 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


I did not have GPS in 1982 and who knows if the tach or speedo was accurate
.


This says quite a bit

Not doubting that it ran good, the numbers just don't work out

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-06-2019 at 1:07am
Interesting thread. My '87 Martinique w/ PCM 351 W has this exact problem, except mine stumbles a bit on initial acceleration, and not at 4000 rpm. I need to check my acceleration pump.

When I give it full throttle, it tops out at 4000 rpm with Acme 542 prop. I "assumed" my secondaries were opening, but, this thread is making me rethink that. The engine runs perfectly other than this. As Mr. McD says, these engines will run perfectly on 2 bbls, and even accelerates real good for a bigger boat.

I really don't get on it that often to even need the four bbl. I'm running at around 2500-3000 rpm most of the time just skiing or cruising. But, if it's broke, I still want to fix it.

What have you guys found that are the top reason or two the secondaries don't open?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2019 at 11:58am
Did some tinkering this weekend.

Changed the fuel filter, checked and oiled the advance mechanism, checked the secondaries.

Good news - the boat now revs to 4,700rpm smoothly. This equates to 43mph. The secondaries open about 70%. I have the Pertronix ignition module - seems to be working fine.

Bad news - I have no idea what fixed it.

My timing light crapped out after two flashes so I wasn't able to check or adjust timing. Will get a new one and try again next weekend.

Prop is a 13x13 and the carb numbers are in the photo below.

There's a vacuum line coming off the carb that isn't attached to anything. Where is this supposed to go?









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2019 at 12:16pm
43 with a 351w in that hull? You’re missing at least 5mph... I’d start with the prop but don’t see any mention of timing numbers? Also check if that carb is marine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-10-2019 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

43 with a 351w in that hull? You’re missing at least 5mph... I’d start with the prop but don’t see any mention of timing numbers? Also check if that carb is marine.


What he said

Or I could tell you that the carburetor is a 600 cfm Holley Street Warrior carburetor.

And you probably know there are no streets on the water

It'll work OK, it just doesn't have marine leakage protection (and certification) which could lead to a fire/explosion
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