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New Project boat. 74 Mustang 17

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    Posted: August-07-2019 at 10:42am
Hey everyone. I wanted to share my new project boat. I consider myself an amateur boat restorer and I love finding old hulls worth bringing back to life. Typically I've worked on SeaCrafts and one bass boat (that was not worth restoration, but was still fun) so this boat is totally different to me.

I bought this boat knowing that all the wood is rotten and the engine was "seized". I'm quite familiar with stringer and floor replacement and this boat looks fairly simple in that regard except for some careful geometry to ensure engine alignment. I have a plan for that.

The hull is in great original shape with all it's parts and pieces. The gelcoat is really nasty on the bottom so I'll be doing a full gel job. I did not anticipate how destroyed the motor would be. Hopefully the crank is OK. In the oilpan I found 3-1/2 connecting rods. Parts of 3 shattered pistons. A pile of bearings and other miscellaneous engine components that should be attached to things. Somehow, things did not get too banged up in there so I am hopeful. I think if the crank is bad, I'll probably switch to standard rotation due to parts availability and cost.

On to the pics! Some of you may have seen in on the FB group while I was waiting activation here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Basketcase Basketcase wrote:

I think if the crank is bad, I'll probably switch to standard rotation due to parts availability and cost.

Adam,
Welcome to restoration world! Keep us informed as you start the tear down. I hope you've found some of the great threads here that will help you through the process. If not, read and or ask.

I encourage you to think hard about changing the rotation. When you get into the engine, take a close look at what components could still be used to keep it s RR.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basketcase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:46am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:


I encourage you to think hard about changing the rotation. When you get into the engine, take a close look at what components could still be used to keep it s RR.


Thank you for the welcome. Looking forward to getting this on the water. (it will be a while)

What is the benefit of keeping the RR? Reading through the threads it seems like parts can be a bear to source. For instance, if my crank is bad, finding one means most likely finding another RR 302 motor, yes? A 5.0 mustang motor can be had almost free around me. That was my thinking anyway. Is there a significant advantage to the RR?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:08pm
Crank is the least of your worries, only main differences between a rr and a lr are the wick lines at the seal area. More a concern is the rear main seal. If it’s a 2 piece seal block you might have to have it machined to a one piece type seal, 2 piece rr seals are difficult to find. Just have to wait and see what you have left
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:11pm
A 5.0 block would be a option but you can’t mix some rotating parts due to the fact early engines use a 28oz imbalance and the 5.0’s use 50oz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Basketcase Basketcase wrote:



What is the benefit of keeping the RR?


Handling.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:27pm
Hmm....
A srd rotation five oh from a Craigslist or junkyard explorer, and a power plus 1.23 gearbox would get you going cheap, fast, and keep the rotation correct...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 1:04pm
Except for the fact that the 1.23 box is a $2k item. RH parts are a lot cheaper.

The smaller cc’s I’ve driven that were repowered with LH powertrain a (spinning LH props) have some very poor, borderline dangerous handling characteristics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basketcase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Except for the fact that the 1.23 box is a $2k item. RH parts are a lot cheaper.

The smaller cc’s I’ve driven that were repowered with LH powertrain a (spinning LH props) have some very poor, borderline dangerous handling characteristics.


Really? Wow. That is good to know. That is what I need to know. If it is worth the extra effort to keep it RR then perhaps I will. I wonder what it is about the rotation that makes it so different. The rest of the boat is symmetrical. What makes it handle poorly, any ideas?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Except for the fact that the 1.23 box is a $2k item. RH parts are a lot cheaper.


Wish I knew someone who would pay that much for one! Are you sure it's not the reverse handling that you can't get past?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:03pm
Sanger handles decent, so do the MC I drive. Malibu leans more than I care for but tolerable. Vintage cc with lefty = dangerous. Serious chine locker. Too narrow to overcome the Stbd lean I guess. I don’t care much which way the boat backs up, seems pretty inconsequential... though it makes sense to mount the boom opposite your prop rotation.

$500 for a good used transmission with reasonable hours seems in the ballpark but I can’t find one. They’re $2k new for the improved version including damper and cooler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Basketcase Basketcase wrote:

The rest of the boat is symmetrical.

Not really. Take a look at the aft end of the hull bottom. You may find more hook on one side near the transom..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Sanger handles decent, so do the MC I drive. Malibu leans more than I care for but tolerable. Vintage cc with lefty = dangerous. Serious chine locker. Too narrow to overcome the Stbd lean I guess. I don’t care much which way the boat backs up, seems pretty inconsequential... though it makes sense to mount the boom opposite your prop rotation.

$500 for a good used transmission with reasonable hours seems in the ballpark but I can’t find one. They’re $2k new for the improved version including damper and cooler.


Pulling right in reverse is actually better when you are by yourself and if your the type that doesn't ever allow your boat to touch a dock. UT's boat is the only LH old boat I've driven and I did not open it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:30pm
Agree to disagree on the docking. Either can be done smoothly with practice but I’d rather have the stern pulling away from the dock than towards it... if soft/touchless docking is your preference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkhallpass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Agree to disagree on the docking. Either can be done smoothly with practice but I’d rather have the stern pulling away from the dock than towards it... if soft/touchless docking is your preference.


Yep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:35pm
I drove the RRs for the first 22 years of my inboard boat driving, then LHs for the next 18 years, until we owned both. Only challenge now is to remember what boat I'm in. Malibus do lean hard to the right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Agree to disagree on the docking. Either can be done smoothly with practice but I’d rather have the stern pulling away from the dock than towards it... if soft/touchless docking is your preference.


I guess none of you guys ever spent any time in South Florida They all drive open fishing boats so they can run all the way to the front to keep from crashing into the dock. Many bows have battle scars from when they don't move fast enough. My Shamrock walks to the right which is perfect for docking in our canal since I tie up on the starboard side. Something to do with that keel makes it walk straight over when bumping to from forward to reverse several times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 4:45pm
Having driven RR all my life, it was a weird feeling/learning curve the first time I docked a friends MC!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Agree to disagree on the docking. Either can be done smoothly with practice but I’d rather have the stern pulling away from the dock than towards it... if soft/touchless docking is your preference.


I guess none of you guys ever spent any time in South Florida They all drive open fishing boats so they can run all the way to the front to keep from crashing into the dock. Many bows have battle scars from when they don't move fast enough. My Shamrock walks to the right which is perfect for docking in our canal since I tie up on the starboard side. Something to do with that keel makes it walk straight over when bumping to from forward to reverse several times.


Nothing like the voice of experience
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-07-2019 at 7:30pm
If looking for some quick HP gains, know where you can get some new stickers for that engine!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basketcase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 11:49am
Originally posted by quinner quinner wrote:

If looking for some quick HP gains, know where you can get some new stickers for that engine!!


I do like to keep things as original looking as possible so I would probably be interested in a decal set for the motor.

So upon further investigation, The block is junk. The casting on the bottom of two of the cylinders is actually broken off from all of the trauma. I've got some gouges on the crank as well. Not sure how deep they can be before it is not repairable. At the least I'm looking at a new block, possibly block/crank. Camshaft looks like it was spared.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 12:08pm
Wow! Yup, that engine had a major. Maybe these guys worked on it!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basketcase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Wow! Yup, that engine had a major. Maybe these guys worked on it!


That video looks like a lot of fun!

These aren't even the ugliest pictures. Just the ones that show the damage to block and crank.

I think it went like this. "Oh crap, The engine is making some awful clanging noises, we better get back to the dock FAST". BOOM. clang bang....all noise stops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 1:10pm
That was me and Pete starring in that video

He's the excitable one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basketcase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 2:44pm
Since I know we all love carnage, here is the contents of the oil pan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 2:51pm
If it were me I'd look for a 97-01 5.0 explorer engine or if not easily available a 5.0 out of a '93 and down Mustang or '91 and down Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Use your manifold,flywheel,harmonic balancer,distributor,oil pan etc and have at it. With all those parts flying around you might not be able to use the original cam either but RR cams can still be sourced. Might be wise with that mixture of parts to have it balanced as well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 3:09pm
Beware the old dampener and flywheel would be wrong imbalance, but that is solvable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basketcase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

If it were me I'd look for a 97-01 5.0 explorer engine or if not easily available a 5.0 out of a '93 and down Mustang or '91 and down Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Use your manifold,flywheel,harmonic balancer,distributor,oil pan etc and have at it. With all those parts flying around you might not be able to use the original cam either but RR cams can still be sourced. Might be wise with that mixture of parts to have it balanced as well


What about the crank? Don't I need an RR crankshaft?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:01pm
That works out for you,one piece seal cranks have no wick lines- you just need a reverse rotation main seal. You can tell your machinist that the engine is RR they can polish the crank for that direction. Like stated before though he needs to know that it needs to be balanced to 28 oz imbalance rather than a late model 5.0's 50 oz imbalance. Your doing that because you need to use the original flywheel off your old engine to get starter match up. Might as well use the original dampner too since it's 28 oz imbalance and then the timing marks are correct and any pulley's match as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basketcase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

That works out for you,one piece seal cranks have no wick lines- you just need a reverse rotation main seal. You can tell your machinist that the engine is RR they can polish the crank for that direction. Like stated before though he needs to know that it needs to be balanced to 28 oz imbalance rather than a late model 5.0's 50 oz imbalance.


Ah. That's the piece I was missing. You read so many threads on the subject and its hard to decipher some of them. Sooooooooo. Then what about this. Locally to me there is a 351 with GT40 heads from a fuel injected nautique. Is that worth pursuing or am I over complicating things? He wan'ts 500 bucks. It is a long block with the heads off and it needs an exhaust valve. (small chip). I know I'd need new intake manifold but what about the rest?

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