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Replacement engine for 1993 SNCB?

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KENO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2019 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Lower grade stainless is magnetic. Always has been but it does resist rust better than standard stamped steel and it is tougher.
The OEM gasket you show is a perforated core gasket this is the cheapest way to manufacture a head gasket and uses less metal in the core of the gasket.
The Fel Pro gasket is solid core.
Should you overheat the solid core will resist crush better than a perforated core gasket.
They also resist pound out in detonation far better than a perforated core gasket.
All Performance gaskets are solid core.   
In the picture shown it looks like the OEM gasket failed between all cylinders.
Was this an overheated engine or bad tune induced?


The gasket was out of a perfectly good running engine that got some GT40P heads and a new manifold, cam etc Normal compression no failures

It was sealed rather well and was hard to peel off if you really must know

Just pointing out the same "cheap" SS used in the FelPro gasket as the Ford gasket.

How many times in this thread has it been said already that lower grade SS is magnetic?

Why don't you be useful and ask your FelPro connections why their 300 series is magnetic ?

The Ford gasket lasted plenty of years and hours with no issues and I imagine the FelPro will too.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2019 at 5:23pm
Here are a couple of links you can look at Mark

link

link

Maybe it's generic advertising about 300 series SS being used.

I'm sure you can find out for everybody
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2019 at 5:43pm
There are about 16 grades of Stainless within the 300 series. Some are magnetic and some are not. The ingrediants vary in each grade to achieve the compound requested.
Some are harder some are softer. Some are brittle and some are flexible. Each application has its own needs and cost always comes into the fray.
In your picture of the OEM head gasket it shows black between the cylinders if the photo actually shows it accurately. The only thing that turns that black is combustion blowing between cylinders. That only happens after an overheat or in severe detonation. Those areas should match the rest of your gasket. If your engine was still running great I will put it down to a bad picture.
I have seen gaskets go from looking like yours to burned right through in the same areas yours is black.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2019 at 8:38pm
This gasket is out of a Chevy 400 Small Block. these are known to run hot between the center cylinders. This one has more than 30,000 miles since rebuild and it was raced many times,   30,000 miles is what in a boat? I suspect at least 4-600 hours.
Look at the Fire Rings, the silver circles around each cylinder. The Fire rings in this gasket are stock so standard steel wrapped fire rings, not stainless which would be better for this use.
Notice how they are silver all the way around even at the area where the cylinders are side by side.   The side by side are the hottest in a Chevy, the center two cylinders exhaust valves are side by side at this spot and they run extra hot in this area. This gasket has no sign of blowby or combustion leakage between cylinders or signs of heat.
This is what you should see on a good engine tear down.
I tried to take one picture from a similar angle to the pictures you posted so you can compare.
Any time a fire ring is black it is compromised. Combustion fire is blowing over the surface.
In a car when the head gasket fails it can cause the radiator to over pressurize.
In a open cooling system boat it goes unnoticed until something else fails or you start fouling plugs.
Edit: for some reason the 3rd picture is not showing?

IMG]uploads/14769/IMG_1110.jpg[/IMG]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2019 at 10:44pm
we'll just call it a bad picture of the Ford gasket, the silver shows all the way around in real life and like I said, it ran fine, compression was fine. I'd guess the silver gasket material color has something to do with what it appears to show as leakage between all cylinders

I tried to talk the owner into leaving it alone but he wanted some more oomph

It was in his family since day 1 and never overheated, and well maintained with about 2500 fairly tough hours on it.

So since you're into explaining thingslet's hear why the top and bottom of a FelPro 17060 are different in the sealing areas between fire rings.

Just color me curious

The 2 pictures should be self explanatory



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2019 at 10:59pm
By the way, I've been having fun today with my magnet on things like SS kitchen sinks and dishwashers and refrigerators and nuts and bolts at that place that Pete works at.

There's some pretty magnetic SS out there even in the 304 typically non magnetic series, so I'm going with the thought that they're using kitchen sink material in Marine head gaskets no matter what company we're talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2019 at 1:12am
We are so far off topic for the original post, I want to apologize but his post did start this so it is his fault!     
On your question about the gasket difference what you are seeing is a reinforcement.
You will see that if a certain area of a gasket is exposed to more heat or pounding.
It is reinforced in that area to help the gasket live longer.
Some engines have areas that are known to be failure areas so Fel-Pro will beef up those areas or change materials trying to help out.
The 351W uses a nice pattern of intake exhaust for the valve layout which should help cool the head evenly but in my experience they won't add reinforcement just for practice, it is to offset some known problems based on feedback from the customers.
In normal operation at full throttle the head can lift slightly from the combustion pressure. Wide open throttle pressure is about 600 PSI in the chamber. If the head design allows some areas to move more than others it can induce what they call pound out. Failure due to the head jumping up and down, it is like pounding with a ball pen hammer on steel, The first whack does not do much but if you do it 10,000 times it can start pounding the gasket out.
The Toyota 22R 4 cyl was famous for this failure, the Fel-Pro design gave extended life in that engine using a reinforcement like the one in the picture you posted.
Some designs do not need help, others like the 351W do evidently.
The amount of movement due to combustion is minimal, maybe less than .001 per explosion but it is the long term effect that can cause failures.
If you get detonation going on due to too much timing or a lean burn conditon the combustion pressure can jump up to 3,500 PSI or more, the amount the head moves can jump up over .003. That is when you really see some pound out quickly along with gasket failure and maybe piston/piston ring failure.
New engines like the new GM LS engines, 4,8L, 5.3L 6.0L, 6.2L and just about any other new manufacturers engine is casted so light today that they see movement of .002 to .003 in normal operation. That is why they all use the new Multi Layer Steel head gaskets.
Each layer of a Multi Layer Steel gasket (MLS) offers about .001 protection against movement.    3 or 4 layer gasket would offer .003 or .004 protection against head lift.
The engines will not run long at all wthout this type gasket protection but you see these same engines running MLS go 300,000 miles without a failure so the new tech is working.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2019 at 6:47am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

    
On your question about the gasket difference what you are seeing is a reinforcement.


I guess they decided to make a weaker gasket then, since the Ford gasket has the "reinforcement" between each cylinder on one side   

And why's it only "reinforced" on one side of the gasket?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2019 at 12:42pm
I'm curious is the original topic for this issue has been resolved. I know of a 1993 RR Ski Nautique that is on my local lake (Lake Stevens, WA). It is fun to look at and compare to my 1993 standard rotation 1:23 boat. The RR boat is a true "bare bones" ski machine. No rear seats, no side pads, etc. It's like my boat, but stripped down to just what you need to ski.
Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2019 at 3:46pm
I remember the bare bones Nautiques being sold, they were trying to get close to the lower priced Malibu, Centurian, Sanger and other newer entries back then.

Ken, you do know that Ford does not make gaskets. That gasket either came from Victor or McCord, McCord is owned by Federal-Mogul who also owns Fel-Pro and Victor is now Victor Reinz and German owned. Those two have the high volume production machines that can kick out the volume needed by OEM demands. If you like the design check out the Victor offering, it may match. McCord only provides to OEM no aftermarket and it has not been under the McCord name since about 2002.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2019 at 4:59pm
One thing I do know is that you're avoiding the question about the "reinforcement"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2019 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

One thing I do know is that you're avoiding the question about the "reinforcement"


You can't do that top and bottom on the same cylinder and still manufacture it, and I don't see why it would matter if it was on the top or bottom ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-04-2019 at 5:40pm
Well when you get right down to it the question was about the "reinforcement" or really the lack of. reinforcement between the 2 middle cylinders on the FelPro gaskets like you can see in the pictures.

The Ford marine gasket has reinforcement between all the cylinders
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 93 Ski Nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2019 at 12:00am
Well, I ordered the ATK motor today guys. I'll be pulling the bolt-on parts off mine soon. They said 7 - 10 days on the delivery.

On the base boat, if you look in the 1993 Waterski magazine buyers guide I think they tested the "base" boat and the regular boat. My boat has no padding on the engine cover or down the sides. Thanks for all the help, wish me luck:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aupatking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-05-2019 at 12:56am
My ski partner just repowered his 93. He was goin* to make the old ProTec a GT40, but ended up finding a full GT40 bobtail. A little while back he was looking to sell a full GT40 fuel injection system setup. As I understand it, it was everything you need to make it a GT40 except the heads and cam. I’ll say his stripped down 93 with 310hp is a racehorse!
I can check to see if he still wants to sell, pretty sure he does.
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