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88-93 351W rebuild kit

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Lens93SNOB View Drop Down
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    Posted: September-23-2019 at 11:50am
Hi all,

I'm doing some research on a which engine rebuild kit to get for my 351W reverse rotation engine. Its a 1993. I know that the block clearances slightly changed after 88 and also I believe it went to a one piece seal. There are sssssoooooo many kits out there and on the off chance that I order the wrong one I thought I would reach out here to see if anyone has a good resource or specific rebuild kit to recommend for that era of block? I'm only doing the bottom end at this point.
Am I better off to simply have my current camshaft shaved and re-use it?
Also, can anyone tell me why none of these kits seem to come with the piston connecting rods?

Sorry for all of the questions!!

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 12:16pm
Len , Oh i see its a 1:1 boat...

Consider rods don't wear out

But what symptom is requiring such invasive measures?
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

River Rat to Mole
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 12:47pm
Whatever "kit" you decide to buy, there's about a 99 44/100ths percent chance that it'll come with a rear main seal for a normal rotation engine.

Since they're a one piece seal, a Reverse Rotation one piece rear main seal is kinda hard to find.

Somebody might sell you a PCM one for a hundred bucks or so or you could click on the link below to find a reasonably priced one

link.

What clearances changed after 88?

Are you gonna update the wiring harness thread? There are other diagrams if you need them, like one for the older starter that you might have a need for.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lens93SNOB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 1:23pm
GottaSki: The motor had a bottom end knock and we are unable to determine exactly what the cause is. The motor needs to come apart anyways to fix it, so I may as well freshen it up. It has 1500 hours on it at this point.

KENO: Thanks for the link to that part! Very helpful! As for the clearances, I'm not sure of the specifics but I was looking for a donor block and my research was telling me that I could not use a pre-88 block for a swap. Apparently there were some slight modifications.
As for the wiring harness, I purchased a new one off of Skidim, I am hoping that this will be a plug and play solution.
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Gary S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 2:31pm
Here is my take- have the block you already have looked at by a machinist, unless you have freeze damage it can be machined back to as good as new. You are not going to find an pristine block anyway. My '10 truck with 95k has over 2500 hours,your has only 1500. The older you go the more molested it can be as well. As to a kit talk to the person doing the machining. IMHO let him get the pistons,he has to have them to fit them to the block.. He might be real competitive price wise anyway. Rods can be rebuilt as well. Go get one or both of these books-How to rebuild your Ford small block by Tom Monroe or How to rebuild the small block Ford by George Reid
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 3:40pm
First, a lower end knock in a Nautique, did you rule out the flywheel damper?
These make a lot of noise on failure and they fail often. At 1,500 hours yours is suspect.
The engine may be just fine.

If your machine shop orders the parts he is responsible for any returns of parts that do not fit. When you machine your crank it may be clean at std size or it may need to be turned down to a new surface, that may be .010, .020 or more undersize and can end up different for crank and rod size.   Same for pistons, you may not need a bore or it may need to be bored .020 30 or 40 oversize. Pistons and rings need to match.   Machine work has to be done before buying any parts.   Most parts are available to the machine shop in 1 day so it is not an issue for them.   Even if parts are $150 more it may be worth it.
You can tell them what parts you choose to run if you are sensitive to brand names.

Most connecting rods can be reused but not always. Many need to be re sized.
If you spun a rod bearing this is absolutely the case. Once a bearing is spun a new rod bearing will not work to fix the problem, the rod needs to be repaired or replaced.
Re sizing rods is about $10 per rod, new eagle rods are about $260 for a set.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lens93SNOB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 4:44pm
MrMcD:

The engine will not fire and it is clunking during the turnover. I don't think the flywheel would be spreading when its not running yet. There seems to be a bigger issue with it.
The other factor is that we have no way of knowing the history of the motor and what has all happened with it so I'm at the point where I'd feel better simply starting with a fresh build. It looks as if it may have badly overheated at one point and they blew the frost plugs out of it last year. There has been a little too much trauma to the motor.
As the for the parts, thanks for the advice. I think you are right. It's best to just get them to order them so its right the first time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 5:51pm
I was in a Machine shop and 2 owners showed up at the same time to pick up their engines.
Both were rebuilding Ford 302 engines. One had the shop do everything, his was assembled all tin bolted on, Oil Pan, Timing Cover, Valve Cover gaskets and fully painted ready for install.
The other engine was machined and the guy was picking up all parts to assemble the freshly machined engine.
The assembled engine came with a 1 year warranty.   The non assembled engine had no warranty.
Both guys saw how much the other bill was since they showed up at the same time.
The two bills were only about $100 difference. The one guy was upset.
The shop owner said sorry but you told me you wanted to assemble the engine and wanted me to provide all parts. I gave you a quote and you bought it.

Sometimes a package is cheaper.
Good Luck
Mark

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lens93SNOB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 6:18pm
I can appreciate the sentiment on that one for sure! I wish that would be the case cuz I'd be completely happy to let the machine shop do it.
However, I've been quoted $ 3,500 to $6,000 from local shops on a rebuild and that is not a price I am willing to pay. I've been told that the labor for a rebuild is 70% of the cost in a shop.
The parts that I need are about $ 1,000 barring any type of catastrophic issue, The heads are in great shape so I'm not touching them unless absolutely necessary. My main concern is the bottom end which I should be able to tackle on my own if I take my time and do my homework! And besides that, I like the thought of knowing the motor and what's in it and taking some pride in doing the work when I'm showing it off down the road!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Lens93SNOB Lens93SNOB wrote:

Hi all,

I'm doing some research on a which engine rebuild kit to get for my 351W reverse rotation engine. Its a 1993. I know that the block clearances slightly changed after 88 and also I believe it went to a one piece seal. There are sssssoooooo many kits out there and on the off chance that I order the wrong one I thought I would reach out here to see if anyone has a good resource or specific rebuild kit to recommend for that era of block? I'm only doing the bottom end at this point.
Am I better off to simply have my current camshaft shaved and re-use it?
Also, can anyone tell me why none of these kits seem to come with the piston connecting rods?

Sorry for all of the questions!!

Thanks!


I think the difference you'll find in the kits over the years is the pistons and not block clearances.

There were some small changes in pistons and compression ratios

Different year kits had different intake manifold gaskets too depending on what type of manifold it had for different fuel systems.

The rear main seal change was in 1983

I'd check over the cam and maybe reuse it as-is making sure the lifters are reused on the same lobes.

No fair mixing up the lifters

An ice cube tray works pretty good for keeping the lifters in the right order. A 16 cube tray is pretty common and easy to find

Since those freeze/casting/core/frost plugs popped, I'd check the block real carefully like Gary said to be sure there aren't any internal cracks too.
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Gary S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 8:59pm
Don't see how for 100 or say even 200 more they could assemble and paint. I have been blasting and painting it seems like all summer! I am using better paint I'm sure and a GT 40 has alot more parts it seems.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 11:30pm
Production shops have ovens and Jet Washers, if they plan to do any machining to a block they first run it in the Jet washer so it is clean ready to work on. Some use the ovens which bake the grease and oil so it falls off the block.
They can assemble a small block ford in about an hour and a half or less. With all parts cleaned it does not take long to paint and they do it every day so they have systems that get things done.
I have been out of this business for 15 years now so my cost estimates may be obsolete but I bet if you add 20% to my numbers you would be reallly close.
When I clean parts in my garage for an engine build I know it takes me 5 hours or more to get them ready for install. If I only had a Jet washer in the garage it would save most of that time. My son tried to get me to install a dishwasher in the garage just for this purpose.
It would work but not large enough for a block cleaning.
Crank Grind   $85   I had one done last year
Cylinder Bore and hone $25 per hole, 8 cyl = $200
Cam Brg Install $55 including bearings
Valve Job complete with surfacing $ 450 If your heads have 1500 hours on them this is a no brainer, do it.
Cleaning/Mag check of the block and heads $ 150
Gasket Set and New Rod and Main Bearings Look prices up on Summit.

If your block spun rod bearings you will need the rods or single rod reconditioned. $10 each.
If you have a failed main bearing you will need the main bearing bore line bored back to blue print. $200.
They will offer to deck the block but in reality most blocks are fine and this may not be needed. $100   If you are blueprinting they should square deck the block to get close to blueprint. Makes all 8 pistons have the same deck height which makes for a better engine with all 8 holes having equal compression all else being equal. They may charge as much as $250 for square decking because it will be labor intensive.
Balancing if you choose to balance the engine, add $250. Factory engines were not balanced and most rebuilds are not balanced but if you want it perfect?

With all this said, I always build my engines at home. Silly yes, because I give up the warranty and it takes me much longer than it takes them and I take on all risk of failure but I enjoy the job and enjoy it when they work well. You just need to accept if you have a failure it can mean a total rebuild again because of your mistake.
I think you need a new shop the prices they are asking are high for a bone stock rebuild.

I will also share that there are discounts associated with volume purchasing.
A shop that builds 10 engines per year will pay 35% more for parts than a shop that builds 100 engines per month. So a production shop may offer you the same rebuild at a pretty good discount over the smaller shop.   Reality as it its, sorry if it does not seem right.
This is the same thing that has taken all the corner auto parts stores away and converted them to the big box stores. Larger buys better and eventually the small are getting pushed out.
The government stopped enforcing the pricing laws that are still on the books in the USA about 30 years ago and look what has happened since then to all the Mom and Pop businesses. The law says a vendor is supposed to sell at the same price to all customers but that is not and never will be enforced because the large stores have clout be it a machine shop, liquor store, grocery store or phamacy.
All these businesses used to be family owned, now with rare exception they are corporate owned and part of a very large buying group.
Do some shopping with your eyes wide open before deciding what to do.
Some large rebuilders offer very competitive rebuilt engines with warranty.
Jasper Engine is Nationwide, ATK is nationwide, S&J in Spokane covers the Western States.
AER in Texas is a huge rebuilder, Liberty Engines in New York.   There more out there you just have to look.   All of these would get you a fully rebuilt engine for less than your quotes.

I have toured Jasper Engines and AER both are very serious rebuilders that do thousands of engines per month.
Your mention of cleaning. At Jasper in Indiana they dip your engine and parts in Molten Salt, the hot salt strips everything off the engine parts in a couple minutes, grease, oil, paint, antifreeze all gone and the parts go down the line for rebuild 100% clean.   Things are faster in large shops and that saves you money.   Just an example of how a job can take you 5 hours and them very little time.
Rusted drain plugs that can take you or I a long time to get out they heat with a blow torch and hit it with wax and they come right out with an impact. No delay.
The large automated Boring and Honing machines now can grab your block and take it off the floor and bore and hone it automatically freeing up the shop labor for other work.
A friend shop now has a CNC machine that can take the engine, Bore Hone, deck and Line bore if needed automatically. For race engines it even can bore the lifter bores and finish by printing his shop logo on the block so everyone who sees it knows it is his engine.
Most large shops also run the engine on a SIM machine before shipping it to you. This machine connects to the crankshaft and spins the engine 400 RPM. While on the SIM test they check compression and Oil Pressure in a simulated running situation.   Since they have tested thousands and thousands of these engines the AMPs necessary to spin the engine are all recorded. If your engine takes more AMPs to turn it the engine is rejected for tear down to find out why.   These things help the shop know they are shipping a good product.
The SIM machine is the best thing next to an actual dyno run. Sim tests are included in the price and are next to free.   A Dyno run might be $250 more if desired.

All shops are not equal you need to do some shopping to see what is available.

Hope this at least helps you know what to ask when you start shopping.
Mark



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-24-2019 at 4:39am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:


Valve Job complete with surfacing $ 450 If your heads have 1500 hours on them this is a no brainer, do it.


Len

Buried in that loooong post above is this statement quoted from MrMcD

If you're even thinking about 450 bucks worth of head work on your engine you should do yourself a favor and see what the present heads are before putting any money into them

Most likely you don't have gt40 heads on it and they're a run of the mill set of Ford 302/351 heads like E7TE as an example.

For very little more than the $450 above you can get a refurbished set of gt40P heads, with brass freeze plugs and drilled to 17/32inch for the 1/2 inch head bolts on a 351W from many of the big production shops.

You'll magically have 30 or 40 more horsepower and better spark plug access

And of course all the prices mentioned are US bucks not your Canadian bucks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-24-2019 at 2:14pm
Sorry, I could not find a way to share the notes with less words.
I know that industry and it seemed important to share for a guy that has never had to navigate that world. Good Point on the P heads Ken.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArtCozier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2019 at 4:08pm
I thought I'd chime in even though uninvited! Have you guys considered the easy way out and order in a remanufactured base engine from Jasper or one of their competitors? When I was working for SECC we used a number of them, and no problems. Last I heard, less than a year ago, they would still supply a reverse-rotation. The hassle comes if you want to replace the distributor gear; the reverse one is hard to find, but recently I heard that Mallory has them. The "base" comes without any tin or accessories. You can get the hollow plugs for the EGR ports from PCM. Some folks use bolts, but that takes away your lifting rings. You don't get an intake manifold or oil pan.
One downside is that Jasper won't take a marine engine as a core.   I don't know about the others.
"Art"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2019 at 4:19pm
MrMcD mentioned it in the looong post a little while back on 9/23 but Len hasn't been back
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lens93SNOB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2019 at 4:54pm
Hi guys,

The support on this forum is awesome! Thanks for all your feedback!

I have extensively looked into buying a new short block from Jasper, ATK, etc. However, with the dollar exchange, it is still quite a pricey purchase. Just the short block would be $ 1,800 converted to CDN. The long block from either company is upwards of $ 2,400 so it kind of takes it out of the budget realm.
I have also called over 10 shops locally for a bottom end build, and half of them won't do it and the other half quoted me $ 1,800 just for the short block. No dice on that one, I'm not that desperate............yet. : )
The dollar exchange is a real challenge for this entire project because most of the parts are coming from the US and we pay $ 1.30 for every $1.00 US dollar. That adds up really fast. Most of the parts that I find locally aren't that budget friendly either as we don't have the selection that you can find US wide. I found a set of GT-40 heads locally for $ 500 but they need to be completely re-done yet. So I'd be into those for $ 1,000 minimum. Yikes! Maybe a future upgrade....


I have started the tear down of the motor and for the most part, everything looks good on the top end so I'm fairly jacked about that. I found a donor block locally if mine has any issues for $125 which has already been dipped and is ready to go.

The rebuild kit is $ 490 which includes everything I need for the bottom end so I'm going to give this thing a shot on my own and hopefully it goes good.

I've gotten a ton of good advice on here, so thank you all for your input on my project, I really appreciate it! I will post some pictures as I get into it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2019 at 5:36pm
Well............I like your plan

It sounds like you thought about all the choices and costs associated with them and came up with what works for you.
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