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Burning oil after re-jetting 454

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    Posted: October-02-2019 at 5:30pm
I started to have an issue burning oil on my 454, I noticed blue smoke at idle after stepping up two jet sizes to 74 primary 89 secondary. The smoke smells gassy and not like the typical burning oil smell.

The jets in there before were 72/87, and the plug electrodes were white with no color after a few hours of use. The 74/89 started to give the plugs a golden brown color after an hour, but now all the plug electrodes are black. I also replaced the pcv valve to see if that would help.

One weird thing is that it doesn’t always smoke it seems to be intermittent. Could stepping up the main jets to much cause fuel to wash oil off the cylinder walls and burn at idle or maybe a high float?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 5:35pm
Main jets aren’t in play at idle. Something else is buggered, perhaps when you disassembled/reassembled.

Why were you rejetting? Sounds like you are too rich now. I wouldn’t expect to see much coloration with modern fuels when the mixture is proper. Just watch out for splotches of aluminum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Main jets aren’t in play at idle. Something else is buggered, perhaps when you disassembled/reassembled.

Why were you rejetting?


The plug electrodes were still white/new looking after several hours of
run time so I figured it was to lean, It’s running better now to, but smoking at idle.
Using aimsoil 10w40 marine oil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Main jets aren’t in play at idle. Something else is buggered, perhaps when you disassembled/reassembled.

Why were you rejetting? Sounds like you are too rich now. I wouldn’t expect to see much coloration with modern fuels when the mixture is proper. Just watch out for splotches of aluminum.


Splotches of aluminum in the oil?

I did also go from a 6.5 powervalve to a 4.5
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 6:15pm
Go back to the 6.5. Also, the gasket for the PV is very easy to install incorrectly. That leaking will make it rich all around but most notably at idle. Check that and circle back. A spray paint cap works great under the lower bowl screw to drain most of the fuel out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

Go back to the 6.5. Also, the gasket for the PV is very easy to install incorrectly. That leaking will make it rich all around but most notably at idle. Check that and circle back. A spray paint cap works great under the lower bowl screw to drain most of the fuel out.


I’ll give that a shot. Is it usually a richness related problem when the burning oil smoke has a fuel smell to it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 7:01pm
Not sure why you are saying “oil smoke” if it’s dark smoke that smells like fuel. That’s just overly rich.

Splotches of aluminum on the plugs = too lean. Clean plugs = happy plugs. I would go back to the old jetting when you have your carb apart again. Agree with zach on the PV too (I’d be going higher, not lower- but 6.5 is fine).

What size and model carb is this anyways? Seems like a pretty large difference front to back. Hopefully it’s a holley 800cfm 4150 as those appear to match your original numbers... the 800 and 850 have pretty large spreads. For ref, some stock jetting numbers:
QF M750 = 75/83
QF M800 = 78/86
QF M850 = 82/94
Holley marine 4150 750 = 73/81
Holley marine 4150 800 = 72/87
Holley marine 4150 850 = 88/96

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Not sure why you are saying “oil smoke” if it’s dark smoke that smells like fuel. That’s just overly rich.

Splotches of aluminum on the plugs = too lean. Clean plugs = happy plugs. I would go back to the old jetting when you have your carb apart again. Agree with zach on the PV too (I’d be going higher, not lower- but 6.5 is fine).


I say oil smoke since it’s blue smoke and burning oil, but it smells like fuel and not like the typical burning oil smell, if that makes sense

I’ll try putting it back to stock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 7:14pm
Any oil burning would be unrelated to carb tuning but rich black smoke might look similar. How are you determining oil burn and have you been monitoring it closely since you bought it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 7:24pm
Huh

Yeah, best put it back just the way you found it, and exine the pv gasket type

I find both the methods used and reason to change jets, invalid frankly

What exactly were you trying to cure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Any oil burning would be unrelated to carb tuning but rich black smoke might look similar. How are you determining oil burn and have you been monitoring it closely since you bought it?


I do have the Holley 4150 800 marine.

It wasn’t burning oil when I got it or smoking blue, I kept an eye on oil level and I’ve put maybe 10 hours on it. I added about 4oz after 1.5 hours of run time to get it back to the same level on the dipstick.

Here’s a start video from today after I did the pcv valve you can see it smoking

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IIX8Ltme1X1yHO-kK8zVbuAj6Sh7svSv/view?usp=drivesdk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Huh

Yeah, best put it back just the way you found it, and exine the pv gasket type

I find both the methods used and reason to change jets, invalid frankly

What exactly were you trying to cure?


Here’s a pic of what I was trying to fix. Spark plugs still looked new after a couple hours of running. I wanted to put some color on the plugs to make sure it wasn’t lean.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TC25gtOpBFEl_eKO6cmAmtiZK7_qixkH/view?usp=drivesdk

Also PV gasket is a paper one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 7:43pm
All I see is a platform that needs oiling real bad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 8:40pm
Well I can't see the picture , maybe something is amiss there

But a white insulator is not reason to adjust 3 circuits at once, nor at all.

Take a plug out of s fuel injected engine, it will have a white insulator
One looks elsewhere on the plug to determine jetting, an has to be done methodically

Plugs self clean when at the right temp

If you jet to make the plug look a Briggs or Tecumseh, it's the wrong way and loose performance and efficiency

I really don't think you will have to go down that road with that carb, if your only symptom was a white insulator
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Well I can't see the picture , maybe something is amiss there

But a white insulator is not reason to adjust 3 circuits at once, nor at all.

Take a plug out of s fuel injected engine, it will have a white insulator
One looks elsewhere on the plug to determine jetting, an has to be done methodically

Plugs self clean when at the right temp

If you jet to make the plug look a Briggs or Tecumseh, it's the wrong way and loose performance and efficiency

I really don't think you will have to go down that road with that carb, if your only symptom was a white insulator


Yeah that picture was just showing the plug with the white insulator, I’ll put it all back to stock and see what happens.

Another guess on the smoke, I switched to aimsoil from conventional, maybe it started leaking past the valve seals?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Crmaverick Crmaverick wrote:

I switched to aimsoil from conventional, maybe it started leaking past the valve seals?

Why did you go with the bling oil?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 9:59pm
It’s not related to anything else and it’s not oil smoke. It smells like fuel and you messed with fuel = it’s rich and it’s likely because the PV gasket is off centered on the PV and leaking raw fuel into the intake. Examine what you did before everyone gets you going in other directions. I agree the jet change wasn’t necessary on a stock engine but, as Tim said, that’s not the source of your Smokey idle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2019 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by phatsat67 phatsat67 wrote:

It’s not related to anything else and it’s not oil smoke. It smells like fuel and you messed with fuel = it’s rich and it’s likely because the PV gasket is off centered on the PV and leaking raw fuel into the intake. Examine what you did before everyone gets you going in other directions. I agree the jet change wasn’t necessary on a stock engine but, as Tim said, that’s not the source of your Smokey idle.


Makes sense, if I put back to stock and still getting the smoke what else should I check/troubleshoot?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Crmaverick Crmaverick wrote:

It’s running better now to, but smoking at idle.


Does this mean better with the richer jets in it?

It must be time for a quick or maybe not so quick recap of how the boat's running these days and what changes were made to things

If you're looking at the power valve gasket, look at the O rings on both ends of the accelerator pump transfer tube right above the power valve. They'll cause the same richness issues that are most noticeable at low engine speed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by Crmaverick Crmaverick wrote:

It’s running better now to, but smoking at idle.


Does this mean better with the richer jets in it?

It must be time for a quick or maybe not so quick recap of how the boat's running these days and what changes were made to things

If you're looking at the power valve gasket, look at the O rings on both ends of the accelerator pump transfer tube right above the power valve. They'll cause the same richness issues that are most noticeable at low engine speed


The boat starts easier now and feels like it has more power. It also idles better. This could all be from an orfice that was plugged on the metering block that I cleared at the same time the changes were made. The thermostat was also replaced, with a 170. The old 140 in there was giving me water temps between 110 and 120.

The boat overall runs better than ever, except for the burning oil about 4oz every 1.5-2 hours.

Here’s a cool running video from last weekend: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R2xyUL8jhjhyKOoncAI-IXj6kGiBlVI9/view?usp=drivesdk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:09pm
Hm.. what's the timeline on the oil burn and the tstat?

increasing the operating temp just opened the bores a scunch.

If that are coincidental, consider putting the old tstat in and give it a romp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Hm.. what's the timeline on the oil burn and the tstat?

increasing the operating temp just opened the bores a scunch.

If that are coincidental, consider putting the old tstat in and give it a romp


Hotter temp is gonna use more oil like said above. Put a brand new 140 tstat in just to make sure it’s not sticking open
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Hm.. what's the timeline on the oil burn and the tstat?

increasing the operating temp just opened the bores a scunch.

If that are coincidental, consider putting the old tstat in and give it a romp


The oil burning started with the old 140 t-stat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by tryathlete tryathlete wrote:

Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Hm.. what's the timeline on the oil burn and the tstat?

increasing the operating temp just opened the bores a scunch.

If that are coincidental, consider putting the old tstat in and give it a romp


Hotter temp is gonna use more oil like said above. Put a brand new 140 tstat in just to make sure it’s not sticking open


I couldn’t find a new 140 to order, PCM discontinued them and new replacement is 170. The 140 was running to cool my water temps were 110-120ish
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:30pm
I don’t know if Amsoil is ester based but if it is, and it’s a slightly lower viscosity in particular, this could be a factor in oil consumption. Ester based synthetics like the original M1 formula were known to swell some of the seals and the valve stem seals could be allowing some oil to leak into the combustion chamber and give you the small consumption you’re seeing. Maybe switch back to 15W40 conventional as an experiment while you are replacing the carb gasket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:32pm
You just have to look in the right place

Nautique Parts 140 thermostat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:41pm
That’s the ford/universal stat, which isn’t technically recommended for the older Pcm 454 housing. I’m not even sure the 170deg version of that special stat is widely available.

I can say that I’ve run a “normal” 140 stat like the Pcm ford in the older Chevy housing and it has worked alright. It may have run a little cool though, IIRC. Personally, I’d experiment with a few different stats before paying for the $100+ specialty one of the higher temp than ideal. I went in a different direction with a newer stat housing instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crmaverick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2019 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by tryathlete tryathlete wrote:

You just have to look in the right place

Nautique Parts 140 thermostat


That’s a ford one mines a Chevy 454, does anyone know where to find a GM one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kat Daddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-26-2019 at 11:57pm
is that a left rotation prop?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kat Daddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-27-2019 at 12:05am
Is it better to change oil before or after a winterization, Im was looking into the oil you stated, the conventional, but would synthetic be an ok choice? Im not sure how much the pcm big block even takes.
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