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Chucky’s 1966 Mustang rebuild

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2019 at 2:56pm
These are full round seals on this application. I have not seen any full round seals that use a Helix on the Crankshaft which will help avoid leaks on a reverse rotation engine.
The Factory type rear main seal should do a good job sealing this application on a reverse rotation engine. They are point contact seals and most of the sealing is at the point, A spring is used to keep pressure on that point. In a boat that type seal should last a very long time. If it was standard rotation the Teflon is a no brainer decision.
Fel Pro BS40620
National # 3909
SKF or Victor Rientz also manufactures these parts.
The factory seal will have wick lines that are intended to help oil flow away from the seal surface but these are secondary help. The V shape seal with the spring putting pressure on it is the primary sealing surface.
It can't hurt to see what the Marine builder is using, they have to warranty work so I am sure they are careful choosing the part used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2019 at 6:16pm
Let's see, yesterday you told him to put in a teflon seal backwards, now you're telling him to use a Normal rotation seal in his reverse rotation engine and things will be OK.

Here's a quote from you from a year ago that agrees with what the rest of the world has been saying and experiencing..

Something just doesn't seem to be quite right with one statement or the other

I have my hip waders on because that stinky brown stuff is getting kinda deep around here   

For years and years the Fords have had wick lines either in the crank or the seal specifically for oil control and now you're telling him it's OK , a normal rotation one piece seal will work in his reverse rotation engine.

I guess all these companies have been wasting their time making seals for reverse rotation applications and in some cases, charging some outrageous prices too.

And yes, there is some genuine "snarkasm" here

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

The wicker lines are know as the Helix, at least that is what the Crankshaft grinders I knew called them. They are designed to use the rotation to wick the oil back away from the seal and into the engine oil pan. Some cranks use the Helix, most to not.
Some seals have similar lines built into the seal face for the same reason and makes them one directional. If used in reverse they actually help oil pass and leak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2019 at 11:45pm
Hey Kimo Sabe with the sharp tongue. I mean Keno.

Two cranks available, one is 2 piece seal, these can have the Helix or not have the helix.
The later blocks used the Full Round Seal, those do not have the helix or I have never seen a one piece crank with a helix on the crankshaft.

2 Piece Crankshaft with Helix, the Helix must be slanted in the proper direction to help wick oil back inside the engine. If your 2 piece seal crank does not have a helix it can be used in either direction.

On the install the seal backwards comment, my joke, I tried to help sharing that a threaded seal surface will help the seal leak on a reverse rotation engine and the response was they were going to try it anyway.   In my opinion that would be a foolish thing to do, same as putting the seal in backwards. Nobody would do that if thinking rationally.

Helix on the crankshaft surface is very important and needs to be respected, The lines will move oil in the direction of the helix based on rotation. Again, this is only for a 2 piece seal crankshaft.

The OP has a One piece seal crankshaft so it will not have a helix.
An OEM one piece seal may have a wick lines on the seal itself but that seal uses a sealing surface that is V shaped and all the pressure is on the point of the V with a spring in the middle of the V applying pressure on the point. That will seal an application on a smooth crankshaft.
The same V trying to seal on Helix that is machined into his crank surface would leak badly but like already discussed a One Piece Crankshaft seal surface will not have the Helix lines so he should be good.
He would be better off if the One piece seal had wick lines going the right direction for a reverse rotation but I don't think the wick lines on the seal would be a fatal error and he would most likely seal up just fine if they can't find a true reverse rotation seal which I am not sure anyone is making at this point in time.

So, Lines on the Crankshaft are not negotiable, they must match your engine rotation.
Wick lInes on the Seal itself are not as important because you still have the Point Contact V seal putting 360* pressure on your crankshaft surface to seal the engine but those wick lines certainly help over the life of an engine to reduce the amount of oil that reaches the seal making its job easier. Older one piece seal designs may or may not have the wick lines along with a V shaped point contact seal so they are not mandatory for this type seal to work on a smooth surface.
Threaded lines on a teflon seal surface are very important, the threads are the sealing function with no back up, they can move oil out of a reverse rotation engine but keep oil from leaking in a standard rotation engine but Teflon seals are only available as an upgrade in One Piece seal engines.
ALL diesel engines use Teflon rear main seals and have for over 20 years now but diesel engine life expectancy is more than double that of gasoline engines so manufacturers spend the money to reduce failures on diesel engines.

I think I explained and hope it does not add to confusion.
So a Helix on the Crankshaft is much more important than the wick lines on the seal itself.

Threaded lines on a seal are one directional

You are correct Kimo Sabe, I did not make that differentiation correctly the in the first post.

One more thing that might help with this Helix issue. Seals have a range where they can work properly, If the seal fits too tight they will burn up and fail, if they are too loose they leak.   There is a range of function with each seal type. They may have enough flex built into them so you could have a crankshaft shop remove the helix on a directional 2 piece seal crank so you could use it in a reverse rotation engine, they could also weld it up and grind it back to standard size to remove the Helix. That is exactly how they fix a journal if you have a bearing failure.   It used to be about $100 to weld one journal on top of a crank grind charge.
Have a good weekend,   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2019 at 6:41am
Time to sit down now Mark.

You must be really really dizzy from going around and around and around in circles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2019 at 11:24am
So I spent some time talkin to seal manufacturers back a half dozen years ago when 302 reverse rotation rear mains became unobtainable and the suggested.one of.the softer flat seals.authorities lines they sold.as.a solution. This seems to be similar technology - I never tried it though as someone a tad smarter than me followed up to felpro with the correct question which was -how many do I have to buy to get to get what I want.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2019 at 2:23pm
Ken, in most cases you bring very accurate information helping every member on this forum, I have been amazed many times by the time and effort you put in to helping people we will never meet.

The other side of your posts is the immense pleasure you seem to get out of trying to show that your expertise and command of Google searches exceeds that of all others. You may be correct and it is important to relay fact accurately, I understand that, corrections or clarifications at times are needed but there is no need to try and embarrass people who are part of your peer group and who like you are just trying to help some person fix a problem.
Probably why the Snarky comment section was created in your honor, encouraging you to dial it down a little or to play nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2019 at 7:21pm
Well Mark, I'm not sure why you think I'm such a good "Googler", it seems that you and some others here think I can find anything.

With a little time and effort anybody can do it. I'm a good example of a relative computer dummy who learned by asking questions and practicing.

My Google skills are easily topped by about any 12 year old with a smart phone.

Now as far as relaying facts accurately, if you do that and can back up those facts with something other than an opinion or a foggy story from 30 years ago then there's no need to question you or post some search results quoting what you've said previously.

I don't mind someone questioning something I've said but I can back up that info without relying on opinion or getting worked up because somebody questions me.

When I'm wrong I don't mind saying so since the last I checked, we're all human and we all make mistakes.

If you feel embarrassed 'cause I'm pointing out contradictions in what you've said, give it a sanity check before you hit that "Post Reply" button and be ready to explain if questioned.

I don't think I've ever told anybody on here that they were wrong with 4 or 5 exclamation points after it. Plenty of times I've said " I don't think you're quite right" with an explanation why and usually a link to the info to explain why If you can't handle that, well that's not my fault

I usually use multiple exclamation points to point out that somebodies key is sticky and needs cleaning.

If I post something, I'm ready to have a discussion about it with a little humor, shark or whatever mixed in and anybody else should do the same   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2019 at 1:55pm
Thinking about the Reverse rotation and Teflon rear seals I was reminded that we sold lots of Detroit Diesel Engine Kits for Standard and Reverse Rotation engines. The Detroit is a two stroke design and can run in either CW or CCW rotation. Before this post I never really thought about the crankshaft seals in those engines but I know they have been teflon for over 20 years. These old 2 stroke Detroits power many off shore boats so there is lots of volume for LH and RH engines.
I opened the catalog this morning and for this engine, FP Diesel a Federal Mogul company sells both RH and LH rear main and front crankshaft seals for the Detroit 2 stroke engine in Teflon or PTFE.   Unique parts are made for each rotation use, they are not interchangeable.
FP Diesel uses National seals, another FM company to manufacture these.

I only share this to support that a teflon seal is directional, a clockwise teflon seal like the 5277 will not work in the reverse rotation engine. I would rather know this in advance than change out a rear main seal later due to a leak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2019 at 7:58pm
I woke up this morning and felt like doing a little yard work, but I had to many other things to do, so I put it off till afternoon.

That was a little backyard hackery I was planning on

I turned on the TV, put on a recording of Roadkill for some inspiration, took a National 3909 seal with the LH helix or wick lines in the seal and set out to see if I could make it non directional.

I took the spring off the lip, grabbed some 600 grit sandpaper and daintily sanded off the lines without affecting the V shaped single point sealing surface.

Now I had myself a goes both ways 1 piece seal.

Will it work in a RR 302? Beats me and I don't have a RR302 to try it in, but I'd sure as hell try it before putting a LH helix 3909 seal into a RR engine

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why it'll be a leaker, but you don't know till you try, so Chucky, if you're out there and you want to try it on your engine running on the stand, send me a PM with your address and it'll be on the way to Minnesota, no charge.

You can try it, you can trash it or whatever.

I suppose a short run on a test stand won't tell you a whole bunch, unless it's shooting oil out like a firehose.

Maybe you made a phone call or 2 and found something and you don't have to worry about it.

Maybe Joe in NY or somebody else will get you in touch with that smart guy that had a bunch of RR 302 1 piece seals made a number of years ago. Quite a few people on here know him and could probably help you get in touch with him

Maybe you think I've totally lost my marbles....................maybe I have   

Here's a picture a little while before I was done.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2019 at 9:54pm
Ken, if you were able to do that job without scratching the point of the seal you created a good reverse rotation option.   Once again, above and beyond what most would attempt.
Nice work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-18-2019 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why it'll be a leaker, but you don't know till you try, so Chucky, if you're out there and you want to try it on your engine running on the stand, send me a PM with your address and it'll be on the way to Minnesota, no charge.

You can try it, you can trash it or whatever.


And Chucky, Ken will guarantee the seal or he will fly out to do a complete rebuild, also no charge.   

I'm impressed you were able to clean that up without any gouging of the seal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-19-2019 at 7:32am
Way to much credit being given here without a test of the seal

I'd try it in a heartbeat if nothing else could be found, but I think Joe's "smart friend" who had some made and seeing what First Mate uses would be my first 2 choices.

Helped a friend put a teflon seal in a land based 302 last week and he wouldn't let me tear things apart to try this seal this week 'cause he driving it around..

The nerve of that guy   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-19-2019 at 7:53am
Keno, Your worried about your seal? Don't you remember cutting rope seals back in the day??? And the tool to pull them in with without dropping the crank
Keep it as original as YOU want it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-20-2019 at 8:33pm
Chucky

I just couldn't stand the suspense, so I e mailed First Mate engines asking about the seal they use and if it could be bought from them.

Basically you can buy it, but there's a long block hooked to it, so that makes it kinda expensive

They don't sell individual parts to the public and their part doesn't cross reference to anything made by FelPro they said. If you have one of their engines and the seal leaks, they'll send you one under warranty, but that doesn't help you either.

It sounds like they had a special order with someone for these seals.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2019 at 9:53am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

I
Maybe Joe in NY or somebody else will get you in touch with that smart guy that had a bunch of RR 302 1 piece seals made a number of years ago. Quite a few people on here know him and could probably help you get in touch with him



Yep a man with a real need and medium deep pockets could likely send me a PM and get contact info for a guy who still has a few special order reverse rotation rear seals.   But they aren’t mine to sell so I won’t just post the info.   As for the more fun types of seals, those not produced specifically for the way one wants to used them I think the more sealing surface the better certainly you don't want wick lines going in the wrong way that's super bad. But a seal without wick lines that flattens out a bit should have a good shot of at least not pumping out oil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2019 at 4:50pm
Those must be like cargo pants pockets

I think the homegrown smoothie is worth a shot, I really expected a bunch of comments saying "that'll never work" but I guess you really don't know till you try it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chucky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2019 at 7:14pm
Thanks all for the input. I’ll post more as things progress and I have some photos to go along with the progress.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chucky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2019 at 10:11pm
Swapped out the 140 stat for a 160 “Super” stat. 140 didn’t feel right to me and the boat is only ever going to be in fresh water. I still have the 140, just in case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chucky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2019 at 10:21pm
I guess I’m running the manifold. I removed the wedge, as I don’t think it will be needed. Water pump installed and now it’s very close to getting a proper paint job. 1995 called and said “nice valve covers”. They will get paint over their anodizing, after some scuffing, to look a bit more vintage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwoobah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2019 at 8:22am
I run a set of these finned aluminum valve covers from ebay. They're surprisingly nice, given the price. You may need longer bolts as they are thicker than your stamped steel covers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SBF-Ford-289-302-351W-Finned-Aluminum-Valve-Covers-With-Holes-Fits-Mustang/143413259309?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item216418ac2d:g:Rn8AAOxygo9Q8YeQ&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qWSL01n9WQE9cInkSOyB6Z9bRWe7LrEAy%2FkWgMTC2J9Efaz%2FA3tnlgIm4ULFOyKT%2FtPPcmXaF9LDJW9vETEm0g0lqUG8X1e1gmsljWppRuQsQUMsU5uYXzWiIcaFYYCIyx8vQh2Kf8BmHzuHM70RtuVNO8BPEWShnI3kcfX4YKOCtjc0hrIbIBqaDhV4M6jCjPF0YvZh8Nlj5N3qmHemUzTe%2Fa9ZFiuxgGbuWynr0mS%2BRLB%2FXpylldVBbjI4hjWOm0Fs7ZmPSG0YHlsN%2BRN0XOt9JrljEd%2F94gwfKWfhlelmYm7dSceL4BWNUNJ38dSrmKul784M2x4jHn5eDXxIpCaiibd2Vs3m7PEj%2B11b2udsYhcjKAXJIbyRYdxexe%2BcxJKvgYFc%2BGCqXYMJLfjdGCcz6L%2FsUtTcmyfrWryMFE9Dzc%2FgaWB2wDXPex5727TYHC5DabdY12jBgrqGXT%2BJfmuYSBlwIzR3rBnWZ0TWKJlAdNNAu0HV4z73mGLhKeLAVddLVW03apBooWr2qZTnOVlz%2FlfY%2B%2F7dKh4XujKhjw6DVTU35SXVnmiF1h2ltNyfqEHzbX%2B7Ms26l4ct6hIJz1DXqxU%2FDcBfrV0NZrLehpD9%2FtYmCY5073dI4S10urvvcZVdNDiJdI6hFvZKlwaIVlNVxG4aAO7D2%2BxZJn44aKcEluFy%2Fx8ovsqmfhZCKE2F%2F%2F0Bx8EGVRFhrnmc7vYwJBZjC2CNTBEUK76mmPVQwZ16Q%3D%3D&checksum=1434132593099fd2022ae5ed45ad8dde588dc53b5566
1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2019 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

   As for the more fun types of seals, those not produced specifically for the way one wants to used them I think the more sealing surface the better But a seal without wick lines that flattens out a bit should have a good shot of at least not pumping out oil.

I'm certainly not an expert in seal design but I wonder if more sealing surface is better? More surface means less PSI on the actual sealing surface. There's a reason some seals are V'd on the seal area plus many have the springs to maintain/ increase the PSI. Maybe Mark can shed some light on the subject?


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Keep it original, Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2019 at 6:09pm
I think you nailed it Pete.
Modern seal technology outside of the teflon we discussed depends on the pressure on that point to make the seal. That is why the seal is sharp and has the spring adding continuous pressure on that point.
In the old days Leather seals were used but for the most part those sealed grease.
Grease is much easier to seal than oil, pressurized hot oil is hard to seal up so leather grease seals were obsoleted for the most part.
The only downside to the V seal is limited life. Eventually after very high miles the seal will dig a groove in the shaft. Eventually that groove will get deep enough and the seal will start leaking.   They sell Speedi Sleeves to allow you to have a new shaft surface for a new seal install.
For those of us with a few years under our belt think back to what parking spaces and driveways looked like in the 50's and 60's compared to what we see today.
Most cars do not leak oil any longer but they sure did back then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2019 at 7:17pm
Inquisitive minds might wonder why the helix lines on the V seal are outboard of the V on the air side of the seal and not on the oil side.

Or why a 2 piece seal has the lip riding right in the middle of the helix lines on the crank?

This would specifically be for a SBF engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chucky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2019 at 7:51pm
As long as this seal topic drags on, I will add that the ONLY seal on a typical OHV V8 that has pressure behind it, is the seal on the oil filter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2019 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by Chucky Chucky wrote:

the ONLY seal on a typical OHV V8 that has pressure behind it, is the seal on the oil filter.

So the typical V8 crankcase doesn't need any venting to relieve pressure?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2019 at 9:44pm
"Inquisitive minds might wonder why the helix lines on the V seal are outboard of the V on the air side of the seal and not on the oil side.

Or why a 2 piece seal has the lip riding right in the middle of the helix lines on the crank?"

Good point to ponder on the wick lines on the Air side of the seal. Never thought about the exact purpose or that location till you pointed it out. I can guess that it somehow is used to stiffen the material against the rotational force to help seal over the lifetime.
Before today I assumed it was to help wick oil away but that is silly as there is no oil on the outside.   Could make a call to engineering to ask.
Many seals have a second lip seal on the air side, that is a dirt excluder lip trying to protect the seal itself. Seen on many wheel seal applications.

The second question is more straight forward. The Helix on the crank is very specific in purpose. It is used to pump oil back into the engine away from the sealing surface.
The old Rope seals which in the old days, prior to about 1984 were all Asbestos rope.
That was banned, and for many years many other products have been tried, most agree none of the new materials work or last as well as the old asbestos rope.
Anyhow the Rope seals put pressure on a very wide area hoping to seal the oil inside the engine. Similar to our rope seal on the driveshaft in our boats. With a Helix on the crank the design reduces the amount of oil on the seal by directing oil back into the pan so less is there to leak. The thinking was that a Helix allows the seal to function better but most cranks did not use a Helix so no idea how much it actually helps. We do know if you run a helix in reverse rotation it does make the seal leak. The good thing about the rope seals and the teflon design is the wide contact area does not leave a groove on your crankshaft which helps at rebuild time.
Absolute fact, rope seals did not perform as reliably as the newer Point Contact Seals so they were replaced or superceded.
Go back in time and look at the Driveways and parking lots. There used to be a lot more oil leaking onto the ground than you find with modern seals.
For every guy that says I had a 1968 Chevy and it never leaked a drop, you will find 10 guys that remember the oil mess in the center of every parking spot everywhere you tried to park. At our high school in 1975 it was habbit to never walk through the center of a parking space because you knew you would get oil on your shoes.   Today it is becoming rare to find oil spots under cars. A lot of the credit for the change goes back to the EPA, they forced the manufacturers to clean up their act on oil leaks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-23-2019 at 5:30am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by Chucky Chucky wrote:

the ONLY seal on a typical OHV V8 that has pressure behind it, is the seal on the oil filter.

So the typical V8 crankcase doesn't need any venting to relieve pressure?


Maybe, just maybe Pete, the typical OHV V8 is vented, so there's no pressure behind the seal, just like Chucky is saying.

I don't see Chucky saying that the typical crankcase doesn't need venting., like you seem to somehow be reading into his statement
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-23-2019 at 6:10am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

   Could make a call to engineering to ask.


I think you should make a call to engineering to ask

Here are pictures of both seals in question

First seal is a National Seal sold by FelPro

First picture is a closeup of a LH rotation one piece seal's helix lines outboard of the spring loaded v contact seal and inboard of what some would call the dirt seal or others might call it the outboard seal.

I've been told that the helix lines lay flat on the shaft when the seal is installed and the lines direct leakage past the seal inwards to give some lubrication to the lip where it contacts the shaft otherwise dry rubber on a dry shaft would leak before long.



Second one courtesy of David G a while back shows the 2 piece rubber seal riding directly over the helix lines and I was given the same explanation of lubrication for the seal whether it's rubber or rope



So there must be somebody you can call in Federal Mogul's engineering dept to get their explanation

It made sense to me years ago after lots of thought and still does but that don't mean it's right either

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chucky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-23-2019 at 8:51am
Personally, I think this entire seal debate is driven by a few stories of people who installed an “early” siped or helix cut crank, designed for automotive use, into a RR boat engine. I also think the installation angle of most inboard engines, coupled with a too high of an oil level (because they added the same amount that a car uses) also has played a role. Maybe they ran synthetic oil, which would be a mistake...Maybe they were really crappy mechanics that just didn’t know how to properly install a seal in the first place. Part of me thinks that I could install any seal, and it wouldn’t leak at all. Or at worst, drip like a ‘68 Chevy. It’s “interesting” to have this conversation, nobody said a word when I asked about my transmission.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-23-2019 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Chucky Chucky wrote:

nobody said a word when I asked about my transmission.


Would that be "what's this switch on the side of my transmission" or "where can I find some mount pieces?"

I seem to remember some answers, not nearly as many as this though   

And don't forget, with a little CCF help, your dogs learned to post photos too
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