4000 Max RPM w/ 542?? |
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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Posted: November-05-2019 at 4:08pm |
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I've been fighting this gremlin for a couple of years. '87 Martinique w/ 351 and 542 prop (with a few rough edges....like it's owner ). I can only pull 4000 rpm max. I did the wire tie test on the secondaries. 4 bbl is working, at least part way. Vacuum is good at ~15-17. Timing is set to ~10-11. Points gapped and cleaned. A new spring put in the distributor advance to replace missing one. All systems good to go that I can think of. Just can't seem to get the old girl past 4,000 revs at full throttle.
I got to thinking that the 542 that is on there may have been reworked to different specs...ie...similar to a 540. I would have thought a 542 would easily spin to 4400 rpm. I can't think what else it may be. Just wanted to see what other opinions may be. I typically don't use it beyond 3,000 rpm anyway, so it's not a big deal. Just bugging me to figure it out. A reworked prop is all I can think it may be. I may try new spark plugs next year, but, can't imagine old plugs would cause this when it seems to run so good at slower rpms. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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How do you know the cheap tach in the boat is accurate?
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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^^what Gary said. How fast per the gps?
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zwoobah
Senior Member Joined: September-13-2018 Location: Providence RI Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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What is the timing advance at 3500rpm? Should move up to 30-35 degrees. My advance mechanism was stuck and preventing my 351 from turning over 4k.
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1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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I probably need to further explore the tach question. But, I think it is fairly accurate based on my cheap(er) dwell/tach gauge I use for timing purposes. Will look at this closer next summer.
As it relates to timing, I did need to put a new spring on the advance this summer. It is working, and does get to 30-35 range when revved (based on a chalk mark I put on the 30 deg mark). I probably need to jot down the exact numbers. But, it seems to be working fine. But, I need to continue looking at both these issues before thinking about throwing a new prop at it. Just was curious if the problem could be a poorly reworked prop, or if the "less than perfect" edges may be causing the low rpm situation. Appreciate the replies. |
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zwoobah
Senior Member Joined: September-13-2018 Location: Providence RI Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Warm it up and see if it will spin over 4000rpm while on the trailer or in neutral. If it won't, you don't have a prop issue
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1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Chris, I don't feel this is a good test. Any engine will turn up the revs without any load. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3588 |
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My brother had the 351W in a 1988 Supra, 240 HP if I remember right.
That engine would not spin over 4,200 at 42 MPH and only had a 13x13 prop. The Supra was just heavy and did not move fast in the water. Ran perfect, we checked everything and it was tuned great, he wanted 4,600. The previous owner had a 13x12 prop on it but it was damaged so we did not try it. The boat just had more drag. My Malibu with a 250 HP 350 and the same 13x13 spun up to 4,600 and had almost 5 MPH more speed than the Supra. We never checked for wet foam in the Supra, did not know about that back then. Does the Martinique normally run the same RPM and Prop as a Ski Nautique? |
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zwoobah
Senior Member Joined: September-13-2018 Location: Providence RI Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Pete - if the boat will not exceed 4000rpm while in neutral or on a trailer, he has an issue other than his prop. Trying to keep him from buying a $400 prop without narrowing down his problem.
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1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Chris,
I understand your thought but, it doesn't take much for an engine to rev up over the 4K even if there's something wrong with it. You could pull half of the plug wires on an 8 and without any load get it to spin up over the 4K. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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This is the quickest and easiest sanity check to do. START HERE |
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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The Martinique is a heavier boat, and has a deep vee hull. And, at 32 years old may have a couple of pounds of wet foam in it too. It can use the same prop as a SN, but is usually better with a lower pitch prop. The SN's normally run Acme 540's, or 13x13's. The Southwind's and Martinique's are better off running the 542's (13x12 I think) in my opinion. But, there are guys on here who have forgotten more about props than I will ever know and they may have a different view. I know my prop isn't perfect, and I suspect it is part of the equation of the rpm situation. I just can't find any glaring issues with the engine. I thought the advance spring situation was the culprit. Got it fixed, and no difference. As Tim mentions, I should check it out with the GPS, which I have not done yet. I will add that to the list to things for check for next year. Now I will have to figure out if my cell phone has gps. I'm not the most tech savvy boater on the lake (old). |
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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I have not tried this, but, my thoughts are that it may not be great for the engine to spin it up that high without a load on it, especially for more than just a second. I may be wrong though. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3588 |
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If you brought the speed up slowly and let off slowly 4,500 would not be an issue even running on the trailer but I do not think you would learn any new information.
It would be a waste of time. Your issue is making horsepower and torque that can spin it above 4,000 in the water under full load. If you had a known good spare prop to swap from a boat that is known to spin that prop to a higher RPM you would have a more realistic test and maybe learn something. To verify the carburetor is opening all the way you can take off the air cleaner and open the throttle all the way at your helm and see if the plates in the carb are 100% open on the front two barrels. With a volunteer driver and smooth water you can test vacuum secondary. You can open the motor cover on the water, have the driver run wide open see if the four barrel opens, you can watch the linkage and hear the secondary kick in. You can take one finger and see if you can press up on the diaphragm and get any more throttle from the secondaries. They are either fully open or not. Vacuum operated are hard to test. I had an old Holley that was not opening the secondaries. This test found the issue, A carb repair fixed it. |
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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While I strongly suspect the prop may have been reworked a time or two, and it may no longer be a true 542, I do also think the carb may have issues too. As I mentioned above, I did do the wire cable tie test, and it had moved down on the rod that actuates the secondaries, but, I wondered if it really opened all the way. When I gave it full throttle, I didn't hear the secondary kick in like you would think you would leaving me to believe there may be an issue there too. I need to do this test again with a helper on board and in smoother water.
I have the carb off and have been going through it. So far, about the worst thing I have found is that the base plate looked like it had a some heavy remnants of the old gasket on it, which I have scraped off. Nice and smooth now. So, there may have been a vacuum leak. I have only pulled the primary bowl, and everything looked good. No tears in the accel pump diaphram. I am going to spray some carb cleaner through the various passages as well. Then, I will take the secondary apart and inspect diaphram for the secondaries to see if there may be a pin hole in it. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3588 |
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Our Holley experts will give you good rebuild advice. I will share that my Holley that had issues opening the secondary ended up being a small Oring or gasket where the Vacuum diaphram housing screwed on to the carburetor body. There was a small Oring or Small Gasket, I do not remember which but that part was bad keeping vacuum from getting to my diaphram to open the secondary. Once found it was an easy fix and never troubled us again.
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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Mark....I think this is the O-ring you are talking about. Let me know what you think of this O-ring. It's still there, but, looks like it might not provide the best seal (seems to not stand proud of base/poor seal?). Were you able to find the O-ring by itself without having to buy the whole rebuild kit? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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It’s a cork gasket - go on holleys webbsite and see if it’s available without having to buy the complete kit
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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I'll give that a try Gary. Thanks!
By the way, you still a resident of IL? Based on some recent posts, couldn't tell if you were getting the hell out, I mean, moving out of IL. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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6 months and 1 day in Florida puts you in a better tax bracket. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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No my Spanish is not good enough yet to become a resident...
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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18 bucks from Summit for 20 of them, or if you can verify if the size is the same 2.00 for 2 for Quickfuel ones
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10637 |
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Dave
Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you an envelope with a couple of those gaskets in it for 2 dollars less than the Quickfuel price Gary mentioned above I can probably cover the cost of the stamp too |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10637 |
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Can't quite tell from your pictures if you have the housing with a small orifice in the sensing line of if it has a small ball check that resembles a BB in the sensing line.
It's easy to accidentally lose the little ball when you take the cover off, is why I mentioned it. It's hard to lose the orifice though First picture shows ball check, second picture shows the orifice in place of the ball check. Since you have to take the choke housing off the main body to get the secondary housing off, how's the little gasket between the choke housing and the main body ? That would be in the next picture I could send one of those too |
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1796 |
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Gary doesn’t pay IL taxes on his pension but he does pay big property taxes on the river property. No real push for him to leave Illinois other than to escape property taxes. He’s got a very cool place and it would be hard to replace it. Who wants to live in Florida in the Summer? Yuck! |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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yea my biggest expense is property tax, luckily it still can be deducted on my income tax. You have to do your homework before blindly running from taxes as some locations still have goofy taxes like personal property or high license and transfer fees. For example Illinois just raised the boat registration fee to 60 for 3 years, here in Florida it’s 28 a year and I’d have to pay to have the title changed over as well. If I were to change residency I would loose my homestead exemption on the property I pay the highest on as well.
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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Ken, I really appreciate the gaskets. I just checked secondary housing, and it is definitely the orifice. No BB. Also, the gasket on the choke housing looks okay, but, as long as I am in there, might as well put one in. I will send you a PM. Thanks! |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10637 |
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They'll be on the way soon
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davidg
Grand Poobah Joined: January-07-2008 Location: NW Chicagoland Status: Offline Points: 2239 |
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Thank you sir! No rush. We need to get through 10 months of winter before I need the boat again!
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