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velvet drive 71c question

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briandarf View Drop Down
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    Posted: February-23-2020 at 7:01pm
Hi All.. So I've rebuilt this trans,, new clutch plates, orings, seals, ect. And now i'm trying to bolt it back on the engine. I noticed that the videos on line show the trans input shaft turning when the mechanic spins the output shaft.. My trans is behaving like its in neutral.= output and input shafts disconnected.- when I use the shift lever, nothing changes.- forward, neutral,,drive= no difference..
Is this because theres no fluid pressure to 'engage' anything?? Or should the in and out shafts be engaged and shifting normally at this point of my rebuild?? I was trying to spin input shaft in order to align shaft to the damper by spinning the output shaft-(like in the videos) but my doesnt behave like theirs.
Hope this makes sense.. Thank you for any help you can offer..
-Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2020 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by briandarf briandarf wrote:


Is this because theres no fluid pressure to 'engage' anything??
-Brian

Correct


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote briandarf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2020 at 6:13am
Thanks.
Im still confused,. In this video at the 11;00 mark.- the mechanic is spinning the front input shaft by turning the reat output shaft . obviously the trans in the video cant be ingagued with hydrolic pressure since its not running, and It seems to be in gear. -Can you explain hhow his trans is in gear? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6fdvDgFqMM&t=1079s
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2020 at 7:23am
They turn together likely due to fluid sheer forces and sticktion within the forward clutch pack. It's not in gear, they slip as soon as there is enough torque difference.
Maybe your forward pack is on the loose side.
You did shim it, yes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2020 at 7:24am
Originally posted by briandarf briandarf wrote:

Thanks.
Im still confused,. In this video at the 11;00 mark.- the mechanic is spinning the front input shaft by turning the reat output shaft . obviously the trans in the video cant be ingagued with hydrolic pressure since its not running, and It seems to be in gear. -Can you explain hhow his trans is in gear? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6fdvDgFqMM&t=1079s


Just like in the video of the Hurth transmission that you linked, you can turn the output shaft and have the input shaft turn..................sometimes.

You can even do it with the transmission in Neutral,

If the transmission has a good oil film between the clutch plates and the oil is cold, you'll get some movement due to the oil's viscosity causing a little drag between the plates and the input will move as you saw in the video.

It takes very little force to stop the movement since there is no pressure holding the plates together, just a little drag from the oil. The male splines touching the female splines is enough to prevent the rotation. One hand will easily stop any rotation too

Since you just assembled this and it hasn't been run, your oil film may or may not be there

If you soaked the plates or otherwise covered them with oil on assembly then the shaft may turn as shown ( or if you spun it to check that it built pressure and went into fwd and neutral, you'll have an oil film.}

If yours doesn't turn at all, you can turn the engine a little using the harmonic damper bolt to get them splines lined up better.

Sometimes it's just a little tough getting that male shaft in the female hole if you're not going straight in and you may have to jiggle things around a little while trying to insert it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote briandarf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2020 at 5:34pm
uh oh.. shims???? I just put in new what ever I took out. I id see somewhere that youre supposed to measure the play between the big basket and its monster 'C'clip, but measuring that gap is so arbitrary and clumsy,- It seemed like nonsense.- you could read many different measurements, + or- .2 " at different points- so I didnt bother going down that rabbit hole.
The fluid shear force is good news to me- I was hoping for an answer like that.

So- why would you need to shim, if all the plates are new?- wouldnt 'shimming' only be necessary when adjusting old clutch plates because of wear reducing the plates thickness?

Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2020 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by briandarf briandarf wrote:

uh oh.. shims????
So- why would you need to shim, if all the plates are new?- ?
Thanks again.

Thickness tolerance of new plates.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2020 at 9:11pm
It seems the shims are due to the forward piston only has so much throw, and can run out of usefull throw while you still have friction material available.
Depending how the stack adds up and plate type used, can be right on, or leave excess play.

I don't think at all your build will frag, but maybe you will get 10 or 15 seasons instead of 20+, just being arbitrary

The procedure is in the manual in the reference section






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-24-2020 at 10:06pm
Might even be in here- link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2020 at 11:25am
Well, it seems like you're now maybe wondering if this thing was put together right or if there's too much clearance in the forward clutch pack.

Way too many unknowns and too little info for somebody to tell you that

By the way, that manual in the reference section for earlier 71C's doesn't show the snap ring for shimming the clutch pack in the exploded view or list it in the parts list or give any shimming instructions.

Later on in the production of the 71C this snap ring showed up along with manuals that cover the measuring of the clearance. Most all 71C's didn't have or need that snap ring

Maybe you used a later manual that has that section and skipped over it.

By 1989 that tag on your transmission probably says 10-17-004 as a guess and not AS1-71C

If you had an extra snap ring left over, it might be time to worry, but if you didn't and that snap ring wasn't there to begin with you're probably OK if the clutch plate material was the same.

If you're worried you could bench test it to see that it engages and shifts from neutral to forward and reverse but that wouldn't tell you much about slipping under load.

If you're replacing the damper plate, the old splined female center section welded to a pulley driven by a belt and a gas engine or electric motor works good for this as long as you spin the transmission in the right direction.

I know one slightly deranged individual who uses his riding mower with a horizontal shaft engine and a bracket to hold the transmission to do this   

Some people say they do it with a 1/2 inch drill, but it's a good way to smoke that drill unless it's a big beefy boy drill.

And..............if you're not replacing the damper plate, somebody is bound to ask why, since this is the perfect time.

In the link below to a PCM engine manual from the CCF reference section the back section deals with the transmission and has the shimming info

link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote woodyelc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2020 at 12:31pm
The snap ring that they are talking about was only used in the 72c gears
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2020 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by woodyelc woodyelc wrote:

The snap ring that they are talking about was only used in the 72c gears


Then I guess you can explain the link below, see page 275,276

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2020 at 4:51pm
Darf

Today I said to myself "should I do something useful or screw around with a Borg Warner transmission. It was an easy decision.

I checked the stuff below on a couple of fully functional transmissions on the workbench and also on a disassembled transmission that I could put together enough to see how things interacted.

Here are some observations

Unless you have too much drag in the forward clutches, rotating the output coupling will always make the input shaft turn, but it can be stopped with a little force like holding the input shaft. It has nothing to do with oil film on the forward clutches. It has to do with the planetary gears interaction with the drive gear. (Planetary gears are funny things)

Now from the other direction, if you rotate the input shaft and have that cold oil film on the clutches providing a little drag, the output shaft will rotate but it will be able to be easily stopped. In this direction oil drag on the clutches does play a part.

If the clutch plates are too tight you can rotate the front shaft and the output shaft will turn and be tough to stop from rotating and may even feel like they're hooked together

So a question or a few 'cause I'm thinking you may have an issue with the transmission and you might as well find out now instead of after it's in the boat all hooked up

Does the input shaft rotate fairly easily with one hand turning on the splines?

When you rotate the input shaft, does the output shaft turn?

If it does turn can you stop it from rotating with the other hand?

It might be tough to digest this without a good visual image from having a partially assembled transmission in front of you, but if you can answer those 3 questions, it would be helpful.

It was a fun couple of hours looking at all this though

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2020 at 8:10pm
Ok so thick metal end plate drops in the forward drum first then you stack your 5 frictions and 4 steel plates for a 71c or 10-17.. if it’s a 72c or a 10-18 then it’s 7 friction and 6 steel after that you drop the other thick metal end plate and use the thicker of the 2 snap rings to hold the clutch pack. Assy your forward piston and press it into the forward clutch drum then use the remaining snap ring to hold forward piston into drum

72c is snap ring first the thick end plate then clutch stack up followed by thick end plate then snap ring, forward piston the final snap ring
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2020 at 6:03am
So do you just slap it together and never check the clutch pack clearances like the later manuals talk about?

Why does B/W they make specific thicknesses of snap rings, some specifically for the 71C/10-17 and others for the 72C/10-18 ? And have a process in the later manuals to check clearance ?

Since all friction plates aren't the same thickness, how are you compensating for that?

I have some Alto friction plates that are .060 inches and some old cellulose B/W plates that are .067 inches, so with 5 of the Alto plates the stack is .035 looser than with the B/W plates on a 71c/10-17. Should it just get whipped together and not worry about the clearances?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-28-2020 at 9:20pm
I use only Genuine B/W bronze friction plate which are .060 thick and genuine B/W steels which are .068.. and I always use new pressure plates...if the clearance isn’t correct I have assortments of different thickness steel plates to achieve the proper clearance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-29-2020 at 5:41am
Originally posted by FFImarine FFImarine wrote:

I use only Genuine B/W bronze friction plate which are .060 thick and genuine B/W steels which are .068.. and I always use new pressure plates...if the clearance isn’t correct I have assortments of different thickness steel plates to achieve the proper clearance


So you're shimming it if necessary , but they must be "non genuine" since you say all genuine B/W steel plates are .068 inches.

Same end result as the way the manual describes, just a different way of getting there. it seems

Don't I remember you mentioning that you sell some aftermarket friction plates in a previous thread? Alto Red eagle maybe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-29-2020 at 11:55am
If I have to shim I do use alto steels and yes you are correct I use alto red eagle friction plates but only as an upgrade for engines over 400hp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-29-2020 at 7:03pm
Just so nobody gets confused, the Alto steel and metallic friction plates that come in their overhaul kits are the same thickness as their B/W metallic counterparts and the Alto steels you substitute are not the same ones as in the kits, but different thickness ones that you can get from Alto I assume..

Since most of the DIY people on CCF use Alto stuff, what's the price difference between Alto and the same parts from Velvet Drive these days?

No need to be specific on prices, just words like Velvet Drive prices are triple, double, the same or whatever        Questions, and more questions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-01-2020 at 12:06pm
Alto overhaul kits will have the same thickness friction plates and steel plates as B/W as for prices alto is around 30% less then B/W but in the B/W clutch kit you get new end pressure plates which makes the B/W in my mind a better deal since the entire clutch stack is brand new
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-01-2020 at 7:05pm
So if a guy wanted genuine Velvet Drive parts, since they're not real easy to find, he could probably call you to buy some ?

Don't anybody get excited, stay calm, this isn't advertising, It's just one forum guy asking another a question
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-01-2020 at 8:03pm
yes I can get genuine velvet drive clutch kits, seal and gasket kits, oil pumps , most internal parts new...

and I have just about anything in stock like cases planetary gears input shafts but they will all be good used parts

Also have tons of PCM parts in stock in good used condition besides clutch drums
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