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GT40P Head Replacement

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    Posted: March-04-2020 at 8:01pm
The replacement heads just arrived this afternoon....I purchased some GT40P heads as recommended by this group from a separate thread (Water in Transmission)!

I'm going to attempt to tackle this project over the next month or two with a little help from some friends. I'll do the appropriate research on existing threads, but am always open to any new advice so I don't have to learn the hard way!

Just wanted to drop a quick note to thank this group as I work to get our 'new' '95 SN ready this summer for the kids.

FYI- Cost was $450 + $80 (S&H Chicago-Tx)

Thanks again!

Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2020 at 9:31pm
How do they look? Any pictures? I’m assuming you got them from windy city engineering?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRKOUT1K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2020 at 9:48pm
I did pick them up from Windy City....I'll try to upload a couple pictures again.

They look great and their customer service has been great!

Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2020 at 10:01pm
Hey, look at that, you only had to break out about 1/2 K As a reminder, In your other thread I mentioned making sure that the FRONT lettering on the head gaskets is in the front

And speaking of gaskets, for one stop shopping, you can buy a FelPro gasket set that includes the exhaust manifold gaskets, intake manfold gaskets, valve cover gaskets and marine head gaskets, along with some valve stem seals that you won't need .

If you have cast aluminum valve covers, the part number is 17261

If you have stamped steel valve covers, the part number is 17260

The only difference in the 2 sets is the valve cover gaskets.

Many times people wonder which side of the exhaust gasket faces which way.

The Felpro instructions will tell you that the shiny, silver metallic side faces the exhaust manifold   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRKOUT1K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2020 at 10:10pm
You guys are awesome!!!!

THX AGAIN...Appreciate the one stop shopping advice and will get on it ASAP!

Still having trouble to uploading the images for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2020 at 9:13am
And ....................continuing on   

If you get looking for torque values you'll find numbers like

exhaust manifolds to heads 18 to 24 ft lbs

Intake manifold to heads 23 to 25 ft lbs

valve cover to heads 3 to 5 ft lbs

Heads to the block You'll find all kinds of disagreeing numbers for this depending on where you look, ranging from 90 ft lbs to 112 ft lbs. as the final value

If it's a popularity contest, the most common number in Ford and PCM literature seems to be torquing in 3 steps to 112 ft lbs.

In the CCF reference section in PCM and Ford literature you'll see 3 steps starting at 90 then 100 then 112 ft lbs

I'd snug them up in the right sequence before starting the 3 step torquing process.

But..............Just to add to the confusion you can also find PCM literature with 100 as the final value   





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRKOUT1K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2020 at 11:16am
Thanks all! Hadn't gotten that far yet so I appreciate your continued wisdom and timely guidance. With your skills, I probably would have already had this done weeks ago....I think i'm procrastinating a little as this job is a little more than I tend to tackle when it comes to repairs. Of course, a recent water leak from my upstairs bathroom has me side-tracked a little. The boat doesn't rank quite as high on my wife's list of priorities:)    

Based on Keno's recommendation I'm going with this set...
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=felpro+17260&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

Planning to purchase new head bolts unless that is not necessary???

Anything else I'm missing before I call upon the friends and lure them over here for some 'free beer'...

Thx again,
Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2020 at 11:26am
351 Bolts are very stout, and are not TTL design, meaning unless they were overtorqued or abused, you can save the money for something else and reuse what you have

Do your bolts have separate washers or are they flanged?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2020 at 11:40am
I agree with GottaSki about reusing the head bolts. They're not torque to yield and you can reuse them

That gasket set you linked works for stamped steel valve covers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRKOUT1K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2020 at 2:03pm


Head bolts are flange type, but not sure about valve cover yet...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2020 at 3:33pm
huh, bolt holes look small, don't look opened up yet.
are they?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2020 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

huh, bolt holes look small, don't look opened up yet.
are they?


Originally posted by BRKOUT1K BRKOUT1K wrote:

Found a pair of GT40P heads for $535 (includes shipping from Chicago)...1/2 holes w/ Brass plugs. Anything else I need to be on the lookout as far as compatibility is concerned?


Hopefully just an eyeball calibration issue Gotta Ski. The above was from a post in his transmission thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 12:12am
I never recommend reusing cylinder head bolts as the act of torquing physically stretches the bolt and it will never achieve the same or proper spec if reused. Just buy a set of ARP head bolts and use there moly lubricant and torque them to ARP spec.

You spent however much on new cylinder heads and gaskets so is it really worth not buying a set of $90 head bolts to know the job is done right?

If reusing head bolts is ok you might as well reuse the head gasket
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 2:16am
Originally posted by FFImarine FFImarine wrote:

I never recommend reusing cylinder head bolts as the act of torquing physically stretches the bolt and it will never achieve the same or proper spec if reused. Just buy a set of ARP head bolts and use there moly lubricant and torque them to ARP spec.

You spent however much on new cylinder heads and gaskets so is it really worth not buying a set of $90 head bolts to know the job is done right?

If reusing head bolts is ok you might as well reuse the head gasket


As stated clearly and correctly above small block ford engines did not use bolts that physically stretch during torquing (torque to yield, or tty) bolts and therefore the head bolts are reusable - this is in no way the same as reusing a head gasket.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 8:38am
Hey Joe (in Ohio)

Can you send me all your old 351w head bolts especially any ARP ones that you might be throwing out since they were torqued once?

Just send them to Keno's Home for Wayward bolts

Luckily there aren't many bolts to replace in a transmission
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 11:22am
Same here Ken. Those were getting hard to come by for a while. Better send me all your main cap bolts while you’re at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

small block ford engines did not use bolts that physically stretch during torquing (torque to yield, or tty) bolts

Or TTL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRKOUT1K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 4:18pm
Gents,

Called Windy City this afternoon to confirm they sent me the heads with the 1/2" holes. Either way, they are very helpful and Michelle said they will correct if they aren't. I'm on the road for the next week so I'll have to take a look when I get back home.

Thanks for the comms as I would have started the project assuming I have the correct ones...

Brian


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 4:20pm
Bolts have 2 zones I know of.   Plastic zone and Elastic Zone.

Your 351W engine has Head Bolts that work in the elastic zone, that means they are re useable and you have no worry. Bolts used in the Elastic zone stretch a little as torqued but can be reused unless they are damaged.

As engine blocks were made lighter they became more vulnerable to over torque of the bolts. The last version of the 302 Ford was light casted, If I remember correctly Ford removed 28 pounds of cast iron from the block.   Engine rebuilders soon learned to install torque plates on the heads before they line bored a block.   If they did not the crankshafts could bind up when the heads were torqued.   The center main was found to pull .0015 vertical when the head bolts were properly torqued.   
Other issues found on other engines were cylinders that were round when built would pull out of round when the heads were bolted on causing ring seal issues.
Torque plates became mandatory to simulate head bolt torque as the cylinders were honed.
So they learned light casted blocks move a lot when parts are torqued.

Torque to yield bolts were used to limit how much torque a mechanic could apply to a bolt.   Knowing exactly how much torque was applied the engineers found they could reliably seal up an engine.   

Old engines with the heavy castings were pretty rigid. Head bolt torque could vary quite a bit and the engine would be fine.   New engines don't have that margin of error.

TTY, Torque to Yield bolts work in the Plastic Zone, the plastic zone is when you tighten a bolt till it starts to stretch, then you push it a little further till it starts to actually break.
TTY bolts will have a part of the bolt shaft that is engineered to fail at a certain torque.
You can see how part of the bolt shaft is smaller creating this fracture zone.
You torque a TTY bolt using specific torque specs, they may say torque to 68 ft pounds and then add 90*.   As you turn the last of the 90* you do not feel the bolt getting any tighter because it is now stretching and will fracture if you tighten much more but it will only apply the amount of torque the engineers designed it for.
A TTY bolt might turn 45* while in this fracture or plastic zone before it actually fails but at this point the torque is always at the factory spec till it breaks.   You feel it on your wrench as these hit the plastic zone.   It is a creepy feeling as the person on the wrench if you are used to using traditional bolts in the elastic zone. You are pulling on the torque wrench and suddenly the bolt stops getting tighter even though you are still turning the wrench.
Just follow the install instructions and stop exactly as specified.
But now the engineer knows if he specifies this engine needs 65 ft pounds of torque the bolt will give him 65 foot pounds of torque.   It does not vary if the engine threads are slightly rusty or if the torque wrench is a little off. The bolt limits how much torque so now the block is not distorted by the mechanic.    Actual tests have proven that even TTY bolts survive to be used again about 80% of the time.   80% of the time is not good enough to torque a cylinder head so today if an engine has TTY bolts in it they must be changed for new bolts if you rebuild that engine.   If you install the head, torque it in place and need to pull it off for something you forgot, guess what, you need new head bolts again.   They are a one time use.   There is a tool that can measure the bolts to see if they can be reused but the tool costs $250,000 so even large engine rebuilders replace all TTY bolts with new bolts they don't buy this expensive machine to measure bolts. If a head bolt or connecting rod bolt fails you have engine failure so it is not worth the risk not to change the bolts if they are TTY.

I am rebuilding a Dodge 4.7L V8 right now, that damn engine has TTY bolts on the Cylinder head, Connecting Rod bolts and on the Main Bearing support saddle.
$200 in just bolts to build one of these engines.
I would be happy to reuse my 351W bolts every time and avoid the extra expense!

One last thing, pay attention to what the manufacturer advised for Bolt lube. Some say use motor oil and lubricate the underside of the bolt head/shoulder other instructions may say lubricate the threads with motor oil, some say to use thread sealer or thread lock, instructions will vary.   Use the proper instruction for the engine you are building.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by BRKOUT1K BRKOUT1K wrote:

Gents,

Called Windy City this afternoon to confirm they sent me the heads with the 1/2" holes. Either way, they are very helpful and Michelle said they will correct if they aren't. I'm on the road for the next week so I'll have to take a look when I get back home.

Thanks for the comms as I would have started the project assuming I have the correct ones...

Brian




When you get home, the easiest way to check is to see if a 17/32 drill bit fits in the hole.

That's the size of the hole in a 351W head from the factory

People usually seem to say "drilled out for 1/2 inch bolts"

If you click on the link you'll see a conversation I once had with myself about the bolt holes   

link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 5:42pm
Or Pete's favorite- Auto Zone . He buys all his parts for his backyard Hacker Craft there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 6:09pm
Some of us around here are in the "Twilight Zone" Gary   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 6:14pm
I know the difference between torque to yield and normal head bolts obviously but the fact of the matter is a standard head bolt still stretches and if reused it will not achieve the proper spec ever again. I’m not here to tell people what to do but cutting corners like that to save $80 isn’t right in my book but go ahead and do what you feel is right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FFImarine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 6:24pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uhul4DmWuw

Check the link out... it’s not about head bolts but it proves my point that standard bolts still stretch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 7:10pm
Give it a rest. That new bolt you just put in stretched when you torqued it down. Using stretched bolts are cutting corners! Time for a new bolt. Now the next bolt... wait a minute...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 7:29pm
Send me all your once used bolts that you're throwing out, not just 351w head bolts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 7:48pm
A little light reading from ARP, you should probably read it Joe.

There might be a question about reusing bolts.................and an answer   

Funny thing....................You can have your opinion, I'll have mine and everybody else can have theirs too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 9:24pm
Consider all bolts stretch, that's what proves the clamping forces over all expected temperatures
If the bolt returns to its original dimensions. no yield, no damage, reuse . Else discard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 9:31pm
Stress strain curves. Basic stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2020 at 10:52pm
Better change the wheel lugs with every tire rotation.
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