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176 Rudder Story - again

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 176 Rudder Story - again
    Posted: March-31-2020 at 3:37pm
I mentioned on the splash thread, I might revisit the 176 rudder story in a new thread, so here goes.

I had heard, as many had, of the legend of the crappy 176 stainless rudder being there because CC wanted to detune the boat so it wouldnt perform as well as the 196.

Since I now had one, I decided to try to unravel the story a bit more. Still seem to be a few gaps in the story, but this is what I gathered.

Jody seemed to have the best answers, which he shared on mulitple sites, this one is from BOS.



I asked Jody if the boat was originally produced with an 11A but I never got an answer back. Maybe as the test prototype, maybe into production, who knows.

Then as the story unfolded, ends up there were 2 rudders on the 176 once it went into production.

The Bronze one:





and the stainless one.



No one seemed to know which of those came first.

This post suggests that the bronze one came first, then replaced by the stainless one, not because the bronze one was great, but because it was bad at low speeds, reverse? maybe turning too? I dont know.



I believe Zach told me he has driven one with the bronze rudder and that it was bad, and mine, with the stainless, was much better.

In my research, I stumbled on this old post from Craig Warner at NECC.



His post suggests the stainless was to detune the "brass" one. Which brass one? The small one pictured above or an 11A, tho I have never seen anything that suggests a boat left the factory with an 11A. So Craig's story about detuning conflicts with the post above about improving from the small bronze to the stainless.

A couple months ago, I called NECC to talk to Craig about it to see what his recollections were. Unfortunately, he was tied up at the time but the guy who answered the phone had been around forever and remembered some of the story. He said nothing was ever swapped to detune the 176. That CC wants all their boat to perform optimally, why would they degrade performance, and that the 176 was not in competition with the 196, they were two different boats, two different markets. He said the swaps they did at NECC were to replace the crappy bronze one with the better (performing) stainless one.

So there you have it. Still clear as mud.

Here are a couple other comparison photos I dug up.





So I am generally content with the stainless one. Turns as well as I need at the ends of the course and to my very amateur/novice standards tracks well enough through the course, tho admittedly I am neither a certified driver, nor a 41 off/36 mph skier.

If I get really bored some winter, I may rip the back end out of the boat and install the 11A, but until then, Im good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2020 at 6:01pm
You know Larry if Ken had one he'd get one of each rudder and switch them out and give us full test results. You know what you have to do.......
Next step is a GT40 swap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2020 at 6:07pm
And he'd have it done by tonight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2020 at 6:32pm
IIRC, Boziel's boat is running the brass rudder. I drove it on Quinner's lake and it seemed to handle perfectly fine like yours does.

The other one I drove did weird stuff getting up to plane and coming off of plane. Like 180 degree steering wheel correction to keep it going straight when transitioning.

Long and short is, it's not at all like CC to not use what's already in the parts bin (11A) and port. No reason not to have used the rudder they literally used in every single boat they were producing at that time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2020 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

You know Larry if Ken had one he'd get one of each rudder and switch them out and give us full test results. You know what you have to do.......
Next step is a GT40 swap


We'll just test rudders on your boat Larry

I've come up with a test plan, I'm gonna bounce it off Pete for a sanity check though

Maybe he'll come along and help me out with the testing

I think that to establish a good baseline the initial testing should be done with no rudder installed.............don't worry though, we'll put some kind of plug in the rudder port so it won't sink.

Then I figure for the next test I can sit on the platform steering with a paddle while Pete drives

Then assuming we're still in one piece, we'll just randomly pick from the 3 rudders to continue the testing.

You should come along too Gary to record all of this for posterity
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-31-2020 at 10:10pm
The governor says I have to remain in place
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 8:50am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


Then I figure for the next test I can sit on the platform steering with a paddle while Pete drives


Originally posted by DVskier DVskier wrote:

I skied behind a 176 in Winter Haven in 97 that had a got 40 engine, what a beast! It had the strongest hole shot I ever experienced. .

Ken,
There's a very tempting scenario here.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 9:42am
I'm ready Pete

I would of course tie myself rather firmly to that ring on the transom and the challenge would be on.

We'd probably violate every warning/danger sticker on the transom simultaneously .

By the way, I tie lousy knots, so I'd be betting on you   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 10:28am
I drive Frankenotters 176 all the time. As Zach said he is running a brass rudder.. I am a certified driver, and while it is no where near a modern boat (yeah driving those boats is a dream, I have been wrecked...), I find it a little more difficult to keep a line through the course then my Sport Nautique, and maybe slightly better than Dad's gen 1. (but it has been a long time since I drove that boat through the course). Chris is replacing the steering cable so that will likely improve its performance. Still a great little boat - way better to drive then my buddy's 80's malibu or the couple of 90's mastercrafts I have driven.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 10:38am
[QUOTE=KENO] I'm ready Pete
I would of course tie myself rather firmly to that ring on the transom and the challenge would be on. /QUOTE]

Come on Ken, use proper nautical terminology when referring to items on the boat.
You know it is called the TOW RING
Keep it as original as YOU want it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 11:40am
Ken- you would need a mask for the exhaust fumes & that would be working against the Covid problem, so maybe look for another way . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


Then I figure for the next test I can sit on the platform steering with a paddle while Pete drives


Originally posted by DVskier DVskier wrote:

I skied behind a 176 in Winter Haven in 97 that had a got 40 engine, what a beast! It had the strongest hole shot I ever experienced. .

Ken,
There's a very tempting scenario here.


Don't forget the tools
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

Ken- you would need a mask for the exhaust fumes & that would be working against the Covid problem, so maybe look for another way . . .


CO comes up in one of the stickers I mentioned

I hope that you mean I'd need a forced air supply and not one of the filter type masks   

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


We'd probably violate every warning/danger sticker on the transom simultaneously .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 1:02pm
Zach said he drove Chris's boat and it was OK. Steve said he drove Chris's boat and said it was bad. Both said they they thought Chris's boat had the brass rudder (assuming they meant the original small one from the factory.)

However, this photo of Chris's boat from his 2013 thread indicates his boat has the stainless rudder. Was it ever swapped out? If so to and from what?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 1:33pm
Disclaimer, I have not pulled a slalom skier in a course with a 17'6", Just putzin around the lake they both felt normal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by 75 Tique 75 Tique wrote:

.... Steve said he drove Chris's boat and said it was bad. Both said they they thought Chris's boat had the brass rudder (assuming they meant the original small one from the factory.)



DISCLAIMER - I Don't think I said "bad" unless you are comparing it to a 2019 Ski Nautique, yes then it is horrendous . Compared to other boats of that era, it is fine - normal. The sport being 2 to 4 feet longer and about 1000 lbs heavier maybe tracks a little better - but that could also have been due to the steering cable which now has been replaced.

I swear I remember him swapping out the rudder, I don't know when, and I know I have seen another rudder in his garage or at the lake house. The last time I drove it through the course was last year, and the boat was already in the water, so I guess, I don't know what rudder was on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 3:18pm
So the story about the detuned home made rudder is an urban myth?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 3:20pm
I don't think its a myth. There was no reason for CC to come up with a completely different rudder than every other boat in their line was using and also going as far to make said rudder require a different shaft size thus preventing an easy swap to an 11A.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 3:24pm
Well Larry

With all the conflicting information floating around out there, there's only one course of action to take.............................you have to do the swap yourself and quit listening to anybody

Once you do it, it's kinda hard to undo it since some people say that the hole in the bottom for the rudder port needs to be a little bigger and others say the hole is the same size.

I'd give you my opinion on who to listen to but that would only be another opinion like all those I'm saying you should ignore



Just go for it

Ought to

Do it

Yourself

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75 Tique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 4:09pm
On top of the inconsistencies in the story, there are also gaps. I too am inclined to believe Jody, since he was there. But when was the decision made? During testing at the factory before release? I have never heard of a 176 with a factory 11A out in the wild.

But if you believe Craig Warner's account, NECC got them and switched the rudder out, but to the small brass one or to the stainless one. If the detune was to the stainless one, when did the small brass one figure into it?

According to the one post above, a boat was received with the small brass one and "fixed" with the stainless one.

And yes, the hole size is inconsistent. Scott Monahan told me they put the 11A in his dad's 176 and it was a direct change, no hole enlarging needed (tho no report on whether the port was changed or not, I would assume so) So there are still holes in the story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 6:16pm
Ok, here is my 2 cents on the brass vs. stainless rudder.

If it were actually a game time decision, It would have been much easier to use the weld shop (or a local weld/machine shop) to whip up a fabricated rudder rather than design and get a casting run of brass made.

We had 10-15 NOS brass rudders at N3 while I was there. I assume these came later and were swapped on and also kept in stock as replacement parts. If it was the other way around they would have been stocking the stainless rudders as replacement pieces.

Someone probably already made the smaller rudder port as normal stocking inventory so that wasn't a big issue, or instead of machining the hole larger the casting MFG just drilled the hole out smaller (would make sense if the rudder port swap is truly bolt in without hole mods).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 8:56pm
Here's a whole different viewpoint to consider on the 11A vs SS rudder

An 11A rudder is a manganese bronze casting around a shaft of weaker material like brass

If you hit something hard enough with your 11A rudder they mostly all tend to break in the same spot........right flush with the bottom of the boat like the picture below.. No hull damage for the most part. Looks like there's a built in weak point

Just unhook the tiller arm and let the broken shaft fall out the bottom, slap a new one in along with whatever else you destroyed



Now take that welded SS rudder and hit the same thing, is it gonna break in the same fashion or is it gonna tear apart a bunch of fiberglass instead as it's taking the hit.

Is there a built in weak point? Or is the hull the weak point in this case?

Beats me   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-01-2020 at 9:30pm
Still an interesting subject, even having read some discussion before. Larry, great research as always. I don't know how you can go with a story other than Jody's, like someone said he was there for a lot of design decisions, another case in point was the very interesting thread on development of the Sport hulls.

On the CC decision that they didn't want 176's competing favorably with SN's, I can't say it makes sense to me, you sell a boat, you sell a boat, more interest in more models can't be bad. Then again I don't know jack $%@& about marketing so they may have had their reasons.

My guess is, if anyone ever had the interest, a better rudder could be figured out by testing with different shapes of steel welded to a shaft. Once optimized it could be replicated out of stainless. I'm sure there is a shape/depth/amount of sail aft that would improve tracking and slow speed turning. Would it be worth the effort? Hard to say. I know my Sport doesn't turn well compared to a SN, though tracking is quite good. Would a different rudder make a difference? Probably.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyclone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2020 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Here's a whole different viewpoint to consider on the 11A vs SS rudder

An 11A rudder is a manganese bronze casting around a shaft of weaker material like brass

If you hit something hard enough with your 11A rudder they mostly all tend to break in the same spot........right flush with the bottom of the boat like the picture below.. No hull damage for the most part. Looks like there's a built in weak point

Just unhook the tiller arm and let the broken shaft fall out the bottom, slap a new one in along with whatever else you destroyed



Now take that welded SS rudder and hit the same thing, is it gonna break in the same fashion or is it gonna tear apart a bunch of fiberglass instead as it's taking the hit.

Is there a built in weak point? Or is the hull the weak point in this case?

Beats me   


I've never heard of this built in weak spot. What about the bronze dudders with a ss shaftwill they break at the hull or do hull damage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2020 at 3:37pm
I don't know if the "weak spot" is by design or just a result of the materials they chose, but Ken is right, you won't see a rudder broken in half, it will snap at the shaft and the entry point to the hull makes a nice leverage point to snap at. Anything stainless will likely stay together long enough to damage whatever it's attached to. Stainless props are another good example, if you have an outboard or I/O and think you will hit stuff, stay with aluminum and the prop will be a sacrificial piece. If you go with stainless for better performance you will damage the lower end before you tear an ear off the prop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:10pm
Is the 11A rudder shaft meant to be straight, or does it have a slight bend to it? I picked one up a few years ago as a spare should it ever be needed that had a slight bend to it. No damage to rudder whatseover though. Would the water pressure cause it to bend back like that, or was that factory? I figure it should work on the old Martinique regardless.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:20pm
Dave,
I think it's bent. Any indication on the leading edge of the rudder that's it was hit at one time?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:45pm
Pete....No damage at all. Looks like the day it left the foundry. I just can't figure how it got bent back like that. I wouldn't think water pressure would do that, even over a long time.

So, do you think it would be okay to use on a big old lumbering Martinique crusing at 20 mph most of the time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2020 at 5:55pm
Dave,
I'd use it as is but, they typically can be straightened. Northside Prop should be able to do it or anyone with a press.

I doubt the water bent it but, they do bend pretty easy. Even dragging on a trailer cross member would do it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-02-2020 at 6:02pm
Have to ask Joe. If it could be bent with water pressure he'd be the guy who'd know
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