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1972 Mustang Electrical

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    Posted: May-25-2020 at 4:29pm
Hello All and Happy Memorial Day and Special Thank You to all who served.

Begrudgingly and with total embarrassment, I have to admit I did the unthinkable, I hooked the battery backwards. I turned the key and nothing, checked the battery connections and realized my error. As a result, I have a completely dead ignition system.
I have a 1972 Mustang with the Waukesha 302. Over the years I had my Electric Motor guy rebuild my starter and integrate the voltage regulator into a new alternator.
-Interstate Marine Battery checks out ok
-I have power to the battery side of the solenoid
-I have continuity and power to from the battery side of the solenoid 10 AWG wire to the connector pin (female)
-I have continuity from the connector pin (male) to the dash
-I have a 20 AMP inline fuse at the ignition switch which is good
-I have jumped the solenoid battery/starter and the starter spins
-Shifter is in neutral
-I crossed the neutral switch wires to bypass to confirm
Hoping one of you have an idea of what I may have fried.
Thank you in advance,
Ralph


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 4:43pm
Ralph,
When you turn the ignition key to start, do you get power to the start relay (solenoid) coil? If not, go backwards and check to see if you have power on the B terminal of the ignition switch and then with the key turned to start power out on the S terminal.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 5:23pm
Peter,
Thank you for the quick reply.
No power at the starter side of the solenoid with the key to On or Start
No power to the either the Battery Terminal or the Solenoid Terminal of the ignition switch either to On or Start position.

NOTE: I do not get power to the Amp Meter where my power comes in from the harness assembly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 5:32pm
Here's the wiring diagram on how your boat should be wired. Trace from known volts up to the dash. Take a close look inside the rubber wire connectors. I have found them pretty bad and corroded. Your ammeter won't show or get power unless the engine/alternator is running.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 5:42pm
I know that my rubber connector is rough and I did clean the pins and sockets. I was just making a list to get some color coded wires and bullet contacts to build up a short extender harness. I have been thinking that is where the trouble may be.

Is there anyplace to get a new rubber connector bodies for a harness rework?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 6:40pm
If you have no power to the BAT terminal I'd be looking at the wire from the solenoid up to the keyswitch.

In the above diagram it's a Red wire that goes thru the ignition fuse that you mention being good. The fuse isn't shown in the diagram.

The BAT terminal always has power, even when the key is removed and it's in your pocket   

And since the ammeter is also hooked to the BAT terminal on the keyswitch you would always have power there too at both the in and out terminals on the ammeter with the key in your pocket, contrary to what someone said earlier in the thread..

From your description, power isn't getting thru that wire up to the fuse and then to the keyswitch or the ammeter.

Your 8 pin connector has that wire going thru it so check for voltage at it's terminal (which you've already done) on the connector and then with it plugged together again, check at the fuse in and out terminals and the BAT terminal on the switch.

It could be as easy as corrosion in the fuse holder or corrosion in the 8 pin connector.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 7:02pm
Ken,
Thank you. I am thinking that the connector is where my trouble is hiding. I will be focusing on that area. I am just suspicious of everything since my mistake with the battery connection and all of a sudden no power. My connector (female side) has seen extreme heat or high power somewhere in it's lifetime (as there is some rubber melting). It would be nice to find the connector bodies so new connector assemblies could be custom built.
I know once I find the source I will look back and it will seem simple. Can't wait for that moment.
Ralph
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 7:13pm
Click on the link for what you're looking for as far as the 8 connector plugs. You have to cut it in half and do lots of splicing

You might want to check that the 10 gauge ground wire between the dash and the block is intact too. Make that "really should check that it's intact"

link
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 8:12pm
Ken,
I will check that ground, thank you for the tip.

I ordered that pigtail. Why the connector body surgery....wrong wire gage?

I have played surgeon in the past on the existing connector body due to some corroded sockets. Worked out well for many years....until now!
Ralph
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-25-2020 at 8:19pm
If I understand what you're asking, You just cut the wires halfway between the connectors and then cut the old connectors off of the installed harness and then spice the new ones in.

You just need to be paying attention to plug locations to make sure you're getting things hooked together right.

The wire colors may or may not be the same as what you have now.

It can get tricky, but it's not bad   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2020 at 10:38am
Follow up:

I believe I have found my problem with no ignition. I found that my Teleflex Amp Meter had 12.9 vdc where my harness connected to the Amp Meter, but only 1.9 vdc at the lug that fed my ignition switch, blower, bilge pump, horn, and running lights. I jumped the 12.9 vdc terminal to the ignition and it cranked. I am not sure what components are inside the Teleflex and/or if they can be rebuilt but now I am in need of a replacement Teleflex Amp Meter. I did post the request in the "parts wanted" forum, with a picture of what failed.

I also have a new Cable Extender with new connectors. I will incorporate that at the end of the summer. Hope to get in the water this week, summer is only 12 weeks long in NH.

Thank you


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2020 at 3:45pm
It seems that your wiring is different than the diagram posted earlier, but that's OK. There's more than one way to wire a dash and ammeter and more than one diagram out there   

It also seems that the only issue is probably that you cooked the ammeter and your bypass restored power to the keyswitch.

You can make the jumper semi permanent between the 2 connections you used or just put the inlet and outlet wires on the back of the ammeter on the same terminal till you get a new ammeter.

Have fun, check your battery voltage when the boat is running to make sure it's charging with the bypass installed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2020 at 5:34pm
Hi Ken,
I tried to run the ignition harness over to the other terminal but it is too short with the other branches connected, so I just built a jumper to bridge the two terminals. Really hoping to find the same ammeter to keep everything original.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2020 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by rmenier rmenier wrote:

Hi Ken,
I tried to run the ignition harness over to the other terminal but it is too short with the other branches connected, so I just built a jumper to bridge the two terminals. Really hoping to find the same ammeter to keep everything original.


If you want a "loaner" to give you some indication till you can find an original, I know "this guy" that would send you one as long as you promise to never ever send it back.   

You could pass it on to somebody else in need when you find an original

Here's a picture

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-03-2020 at 10:29pm
Or...........here's something pretty much period correct in the EBAY link below

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 9:27am
Good morning Ken,
Thank you for that offer and for finding the e-bay ammeter. I have also been searching e-bay and anywhere else I can think of for the exact match. I have 4 terminals on the backside of my ammeter (see pic below) so I hesitate on buying the one on e-bay and I hesitate to take you up on your offer if I can't use it at all. Your help is very much appreciated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 9:32am
Ralph,
There are two terminals that measure the flow of current. They are the ones directly behind the half moon cut outs on the mounting bracket. They are the ones you jumped to bypass the meter Then the other two will be a ground and the hot for the light.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 12:48pm
Ralph

Here's a picture of the back of the "loaner" ammeter.

It'll work, just takes a different bulb wired to your instrument lights.

Yours looks like it has no wire and gets it's 12 volt lighting power from a sort of printed circuit from one of the big terminals on the back of the meter. It's hard to tell in the picture.

It's easy enough to make the Ebay one work too.

or...............if you're not worried about the light, then it's real easy with either

It night take a long long while to find an exact match

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 2:07pm
Ken,
You've got my attention.
1. Your ammeter: I can see clearly how to hook it up and I do not care about the light so it would be functional
2. e-bay Teleflex ammeter: there are only 2 lugs, so it is unclear to me how to hook that one up.
My preference is to utilize the period correct part on e-bay if I knew how to connect it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by rmenier rmenier wrote:

Ken,
2. e-bay Teleflex ammeter: there are only 2 lugs, so it is unclear to me how to hook that one up.

Ralph,
If it only has two terminals, then there's no lighting.
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Ralph,
There are two terminals that measure the flow of current. They are the ones directly behind the half moon cut outs on the mounting bracket. They are the ones you jumped to bypass the meter Then the other two will be a ground and the hot for the light.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by rmenier rmenier wrote:

Ken,
2. e-bay Teleflex ammeter: there are only 2 lugs, so it is unclear to me how to hook that one up.

Ralph,
If it only has two terminals, then there's no lighting.
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Ralph,
There are two terminals that measure the flow of current. They are the ones directly behind the half moon cut outs on the mounting bracket. They are the ones you jumped to bypass the meter Then the other two will be a ground and the hot for the light.


Maybe you should look at the Ebay link Pete and you'd see the light in the ammeter.

Since you don't care about the light Ralph, I'd jump on the Ebay meter and it would probably look pretty original with your other instruments, but the permanent "loaner" is available.

For roughly 15 bucks with shipping included you don't have much to lose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rmenier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 3:20pm
Ken,
I just ordered the e-bay ammeter for "closer" period correctness only. I am not sure what to do with my 2 ground wires on the third terminal, jumper them to the mounting bracket???
In the meanwhile I will continue searching for the exact replacement or look for an electronics technician that can troubleshoot and maybe repair the original.
Thank you for your offer and your help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by rmenier rmenier wrote:

Ken,
I just ordered the e-bay ammeter for "closer" period correctness only. I am not sure what to do with my 2 ground wires on the third terminal, jumper them to the mounting bracket???
In the meanwhile I will continue searching for the exact replacement or look for an electronics technician that can troubleshoot and maybe repair the original.
Thank you for your offer and your help.


I was just about to post that it was sold and ask if you bought it, now I don't have to ask   

I'd just hook the 2 ground wires together to maintain the daisy chain of grounds under the dash.

No need to hook the 2 wires to another ground like the bracket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 3:30pm
One will turn up.You have to be patient and check just about everyday under Teleflex gauge or vintage marine gauge etc. I found a nos hour gauge for my Mustang once. I can safely say I have the lowest hour 69 Mustang out there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-04-2020 at 3:30pm
Though the ammeter is somewhat more helpful than a voltmeter, I’ve never found either particularly critical. Nothing like oil pressure and temp gauges. If you know your alt is charging properly, I’d be inclined to jumper the gauge (perhaps on the engine side as well so you’re not routing the charging circuit through the dash) and just leave the original in the dash for appearance sake.
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