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Engine options in a 'post GT40 world'

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Engine options in a 'post GT40 world'
    Posted: June-20-2022 at 11:56am
At some point, it won't make much sense to fight the battle of replacing a 25 year old GT40 ECM with another one. Regardless of the refurbishment of these ECM's, they are STILL very old.

With that said, the two options are a re-power with an engine that has OEM support, or getting a later model boat with an engine that is still supported.

I believe the Apex engines showed up in the early 2000's as an option. Would an older boat with this motor be an option for engine support? If so, how far back would support go for the Apex engines.

Just thinking out loud here for affordable boats that have engine support.

Thanks,

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2022 at 2:01pm
Ultra:

I've had similar thoughts.  Michigan Motorz (yes, that's how it's spelled) has some nice drop-in engines for a re-power scenario.  I've considered that route.  

With that being said...these SBF Ford 5.8 engines are very strong and parts will be available for a loooong time.  If the ECM on my GT-40 were to fail, I would likely go "retro" and convert the engine back to a high performance carb and distributor setup.  My old 1994 Ski came with the TBI "Pro Boss" and the Pro Tech.  After TBI and Pro Tech died, I went with mid-range high performance mods and retro-conversion.  The retro engine was every bit as strong as the original and was remarkably reliable.  Very strong runner.  The carb and dizzy setup is tried-and true and can perform many years well with a reasonable amount of maintenance.

In my new boat, I will likely do the same thing.  I'm fairly confident that I can get 350+ Horse Power from my little SBF without too much trouble.  If / when my GT-40 dies, I will likely go with:

- Roller cam, lifters & rockers
- Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
- Q.F. 650 carb
- Electric fuel pump
- Aluminum heads (AFR or Edelbrock)
- Stroker?  Maybe, but not sure yet.

I love to tinker and work on engines, so it will be a labor of love.  At the end of the day, I will have a rock-solid engine that will be easy to work on, maintain, and will pull my arms off on a slalom start.  All this would be waaaay cheaper than a new drop-in re-power.  I'm figuring $3,500 for all parts with labor being a DIY.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2022 at 2:24pm
Currently you have a number of options for a repower.
New non cat 6.0 LS is all thats available from PCM for repower. no more 5.7 no more 5.8
Marine Power has a few non cat options.
in the last year I have repowered 5 boats with the PCM 6.0 bobtail package. includes Hydrodyne, mastercraft and Nautique boats.
will it fit? thats allways the question that one has to answer. newer 6 liter engines are physically bigger then the old ford and chebby engines that come out. motor box as well as cable, fuel line and many other issues need to be addressed when repowering.
Ford and Chevy sbc marine parts are starting to become more then just obsolete in some cases some parts are just not available. Yea we that are in the business have ratholed many parts and have the ability to build near new engines for our own boats however marine repair shops are finding it harder and harder to successfully as well as economically repair as well as replace older engines.

$20K will get you a new 6.0 non cat pcm bobtail engine, a new series 80/123:1 transmission, a Zero Off speed controll and installed on just about any Ski Nautique from 1995-20011.
 
Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2022 at 2:49pm
I have rebuild the GM 5.3L, 6.0L and the 6.2L LS style engines.  They are a fabulous engine design and I am sure they would be an upgrade and reliable.   Looking at $20K I think I would go the same route as JQ on this one.   Rebuild the 5.8L W and if necessary go retro with a Carb and Dizzy.  In parts supply when there is a demand someone finds an answer so I expect someone will offer a functioning computer ECM for these engines or a work around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2022 at 5:57am
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:

In my new boat, I will likely do the same thing.  I'm fairly confident that I can get 350+ Horse Power from my little SBF without too much trouble.  If / when my GT-40 dies, I will likely go with:

- Roller cam, lifters & rockers
- Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
- Q.F. 650 carb
- Electric fuel pump
- Aluminum heads (AFR or Edelbrock)
- Stroker?  Maybe, but not sure yet.


So it makes me wonder, why would this retro thing use an electric fuel pump?

Why wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,be proactive, do it now and sell the good parts while they're good  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2022 at 6:30am
Originally posted by ultrarunner ultrarunner wrote:

At some point, it won't make much sense to fight the battle of replacing a 25 year old GT40 ECM with another one. Regardless of the refurbishment of these ECM's, they are STILL very old.

With that said, the two options are a re-power with an engine that has OEM support, or getting a later model boat with an engine that is still supported.

I believe the Apex engines showed up in the early 2000's as an option. Would an older boat with this motor be an option for engine support? If so, how far back would support go for the Apex engines.

Just thinking out loud here for affordable boats that have engine support.

Thanks,

Mark

If you're worried about ECMs, then about any fuel injected Chevy engine out there has plenty of support as far as ECMs go.

Whether it's the first MEFI1  or some later version, you can get them brand new, get a refurbished one or get used and get them programmed for your application by a number of places around the country 

PS...............edit your title Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2022 at 11:37am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

 

So it makes me wonder, why would this retro thing use an electric fuel pump?



Any chance the later engines were originally built without a mechanical fuel pump eccentric?

Easy enough to add one if needed...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2022 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by MourningWood MourningWood wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

 

So it makes me wonder, why would this retro thing use an electric fuel pump?



Any chance the later engines were originally built without a mechanical fuel pump eccentric?

Easy enough to add one if needed...

You're not Jonny Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-21-2022 at 8:40pm
Ahh.....I seeApprove
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2022 at 9:26am
I might add that up until the last two repowers i have done in the last 4 or 5 years, the focus was to be able to facilitate Zero Off speed control.
Zero Off is the speed control that is only used for current waterski competition. perfectpass is still out their and they build still a very quality product. However many competitive skiers are not willing to purchase a new $120K ski boat nor even a $50K ski boat when their 20 year old garage kept tournament boat drives and skis better then what currently is available for competition and they own it out right.
Finally AWSA looked at the down trend of towboat availability for competition and expanded towboat rules to include basically any boat previously approved by AWSA with the exception that they must utilize current approved GPS based speed control. at the upcoming Georgia state championships they will be utilizing as one of their towboats a Excalibur repowered 99 SN.  
Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2022 at 4:51pm
Very interesting note, makes me wonder what the skiers will be using in 2040 or 2050.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fl Inboards Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-22-2022 at 6:13pm
Cable sites as there will no longer be fossil fuel availability!
Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kristof Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2022 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Fl Inboards Fl Inboards wrote:

Cable sites as there will no longer be fossil fuel availability!
You might be on to something there................    Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 4:15pm
Ok, so clearly, putting the GT40 motor back to a carb version would get you the most bang for the buck as far as eliminating the GT40, it's ECU and all the components that are subject to failure with this system. 

I likely wouldn't go as deep as Jonny Q, and simply go with the DUI, the HP carb and new perf intake. I'll loose a bit of HP, but not likely enough to notice a big difference based on how I use the boat, and can re-prop as necessary.

Ultra
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 4:28pm
The power difference would be minimal, maybe not even noticeable.  You would notice Cold Starts take a little more thought, set the choke, Pump the gas once then turn the key but hey, we all did that for 50 years before fuel injection took over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 4:58pm
McD is correct.  Your idea of new HEI dizzy, quality carb and intake manifold will produce similar HP / Torque at the typical ski tug operating RPM range.  You might drop 10-15 ponies, but only at WOT.  When pulling a skier, it’s doubtful you would notice.  

I will likely add a cam, lifters, rockers, heads, etc. because I like to tinker.  If Mrs. Quest holds me to a budget, I would go with refurb GT40P heads, QF 650 double pumper, Performer RPM intake, DUI dizzy and a new fuel pump.  That setup would be damn close to the GT-40 mill in the boat now.  You could work on that bad boy with regular hand tools without the need for an OBD2 reader.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 6:24pm
JQ, the Ford guys are seeing nice bumps in HP from AFR heads, probably 185 cc would be fine for the low RPM used in a Ski boat.  Probably 40 HP bump at 5,000 RPM.  Maybe near equal below 2,000.
Go back to Mrs Quest and ask for a little more rope.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 6:52pm
Seems to me it's a needless and unnecessary to ever have to go backwards to convert a 40 to a carb, what would be the point? What is unavailable? With all the 5.0's and 5.8's in circulation there will be plenty of normal replacement parts available. Right now the only thing complicated and not available would be the wiring harness.   I've never used a OBD2 on a GT40- how does that work Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I've never used a OBD2 on a GT40- how does that work Wink

Only Jonny knows the answer to that question  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Seems to me it's a needless and unnecessary to ever have to go backwards to convert a 40 to a carb, what would be the point? Wink

Simplicity and reliability, Gary. The newest ECU and associated harness in the field is likely 25 years old. Mine a touch more. For me, its about eliminating issues on a boat I’ll likely have for several more years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-20-2022 at 10:38pm
Well I should junk my HM then who knows how long they'll make points and coils not to mention the exhaust manifolds that are NLA. You can always eliminate the ecm and go megasquirt if it came to that.  Don't be a worry wart, GT40's will be running long after we're gone- you should worry what your going to fuel it with LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2022 at 12:05am
You're way ahead with a non-electronic engine Gary. At some point, the 25 year old+ ECM and it's associated harness, that's been the water that long, is not going to be up to the task. It'll be the next Protec, which, if I recall, owners have been converting to a much more simple and supported system as opposed to this wonderful GT40 setup. Wink      Thanks for your insight.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2022 at 1:43am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

I've never used a OBD2 on a GT40- how does that work Wink

Only Jonny knows the answer to that question  Wink

Y’all know what I meant!  No ‘puters needed.  No diagnostic software.  No codes. No Check Engine Light.  Maybe some old school fancy electronics like a timing light and a multi-meter.

I all seriousness, I do worry about aging ECMs and the other critical electronics in a marine environment.  If my GT40 stays running, so much the better.  If the electronic wizardry craps out then I’m off to Jegs and Summit Racing.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2022 at 8:03am
I can add that my HCI upgrade has been nothing but stellar. I could overtalk, but drivers can't believe its not FI.
Its just super strong and responsive everywhere, especially ski speeds with lungs up top. 
And also efficient, last week we measured four skiers at 14mi total at 34mph, using 4.3 gallons

Im all for improvising existing gt40's FI system when neeeded, I'm sure creative solutions will present,  but also wouldn't discourage a carbation, with a few components one can go beyond gt40 limitations

The 170 TFTW heads with 58 cc chambers can run 2.02 valves on the stock pistons, up to 500 lift 
I've run 87 all season with no adjustments in timing needed to compensate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2022 at 9:37am
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:


And also efficient, last week we measured four skiers at 14mi total at 34mph, using 4.3 gallons



Just to get that into boating terms like gallons/hr, your "efficiency" works out to about 10.5 gallons/hr using your numbers

Or in wallet terms roughly 50 bucks an hour Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2022 at 10:41am
heh  yep,  thats why were done in 20 minutes then off to work  Thumbs Up
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