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Acceleration issues.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2022 at 8:18pm
So what are these really strange timing inconsistencies you're seeing?

What did you do about all the leaking fuel in the primaries even when the float was adjusted?

Any leaking fuel in the secondaries?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2022 at 7:49pm
Quick update.

JQ was able to walk me through visually confirming that there is fuel delivery which there is through the accelerator pump when the throttle is depressed. Also that I have spark to each cylinder through using an in-line spark test light. All checked out. In checking the timing, there appears to be some inconsistencies that I need to confirm. The timing now seems way off (which is really strange) but I need to confirm and I will be working on that and will report back as soon as I can get some of the timing numbers confirmed. Thank you JQ! I guess the good news is the new fuel pump appears to be working even if the boat isn't starting. I'll take small victories where I can get them at this point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2022 at 2:49pm
Just when I thought we had things figured out on this boat, it has decided to test me once again. It is a good thing I reported "problem found" earlier and not "problem solved."

So I was able to get the new fuel pump installed. I began to fight it for a few minutes and then thought it best to follow the advice above about rotating the engine which was way easier and great advice. Thumbs Up

Then it was time AGAIN to test it on the trailer. The primary bowl showed 1/2 way in the window and I was expecting success at last. I cranked it a number of times and no sign of it firing at all.Unhappy I pulled the arrestor and fuel was dripping pretty heavy in the primaries. I checked the float level again and it was now completely full past the upper window (so I assume the new pump is working). I adjusted the bowl back down and let it sit for a bit thinking it was likely flooded. Tried it again later and still no signs of firing. The float level was now in the window and the primaries were no longer dripping. I let it sit over night and tried it again this am and unfortunately the same result. 

I tried opening the throttle (while still in neutral) to give it additional air and no luck. I tried a little starting fluid and no luck. No signs of firing. When I did leave the throttle open or tried the starting fluid I did get some pops (like coughs) but not like starting. Acted very similar when launched last and it finally started (GF look number 1 for reference). Although this time, it doesn't even act like it wants to start. I am at a loss and a little frustrated at this point. I don't want to kill this starter and create more problems than I already have. Just to back up, the last time it was firing was at the lake right before it died. 

Am I missing something? Any thoughts?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2022 at 2:28pm
Agree Mark, thought we'd ruled out the pump and line to the tank by checking fuel pressure/volume.  I wonder if it's just a case of how that broken spring aligned each time it was turned over, sometimes it was in a position to do some work, sometimes not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2022 at 2:00pm
I am curious how the bad fuel pump worked well in the bucket fill test but would not function under load on the water.   Maybe the fuel demand was higher under load?   As I recall he had good pressure and it flowed well when initially tested?   Just curious so we respond better to the next poor soul that bumps into a fuel starve question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomrupp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2022 at 8:06am
Nice work AZ86SKI. It’s gonna sound great blasting past 2700 rpm. Turns out she was thirsty.
Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2022 at 6:35am
If this fixes your issues, a picture of the look of awe and amazement on your GF's face will of course be needed 

if she's internet camera shy, just borrow some picture of someone  from somewhere on the internet  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2022 at 9:06pm
Looks like you found a real problem.  Hope it finally gets your boat purring again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2022 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by AZ86SKI AZ86SKI wrote:

PROBLEM FOUND! I call this post "Interesting Fuel Pump Finds". Big smile
 
In anticipation of receiving the new fuel pump I went ahead and removed the old fuel pump. When pulling out the pump what also followed where a number of pieces as you can see below. 

The first two pieces next to the fuel pump are parts of the spring which are obviously broken. After close inspection, it appears that these two pieces have been broken for quite sometime and not just recently. I am assuming that the third piece is part of the pump assembly that would have ridden on the spring. 

Now, the fourth piece (far right) does not appear to have anything to do with the fuel pump and I think I know where it may have come from. When I removed the original distributor way back before beginning this post (before installing DUI distributor) I noticed that one of the teeth on the distributor gear was chipped. This looks like a perfect puzzle piece fit for that old chip. Could be wrong but it sure looks like it. 

I have just a couple quick questions. Would a fuel pump with a broken spring even pump (because apparently this one did at least a bit)? Also, it appears that when installing the new pump that the pump lever rests under the cam that can be seen through the port for the fuel pump, is that correct? It doesn't ride under a lifter/rod like in a Chevrolet, or am I not seeing the lifter/rod? Do I need to grease the new pump lever at all or will the engine oil take care of that? I know my technical terms may be off but hopefully I'm close enough to make sense.

The new fuel pump has arrived so I should be able to get it installed soon and report back. Hopefully after now finding something physically wrong/broken a final solution has been found. Although at this point I will believe it when I see it on the water under load and not requiring a tow.LOL

Thank you again for everyone's help, I really appreciate it. 

Piece 3 falls out when the spring breaks, and there's another internal spring that keeps the pump somewhat working.

If you want to exert maximum effort putting the pump in, then rotate the engine CCW with Jonny's big wrench so #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke, but if you want to make it easier, rotate the engine one full turn after that and #1 will then be at TDC on it's exhaust stroke and the eccentric exerts the least amount of force on the pump arm so installation is easier. Like you said, the arm goes under the eccentric.

And............. it's nothing like the Chevy pushrod setup
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2022 at 5:12pm
From my research on replacing a fuel pump (which I did recently) best practice seems to be to put some assembly lube on the pump lever before installing. In the absence of assembly lube some engine oil will probably also do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2022 at 4:43pm
When installing the new fuel pump, a big ratchet and socket on the harmonic balancer will help.  Slowly turn the engine clockwise until the fuel pump arm slides in and seats properly.  If not, you’ll fight it.  Easy peasy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-17-2022 at 3:38pm
PROBLEM FOUND! I call this post "Interesting Fuel Pump Finds". Big smile
 
In anticipation of receiving the new fuel pump I went ahead and removed the old fuel pump. When pulling out the pump what also followed where a number of pieces as you can see below. 

The first two pieces next to the fuel pump are parts of the spring which are obviously broken. After close inspection, it appears that these two pieces have been broken for quite sometime and not just recently. I am assuming that the third piece is part of the pump assembly that would have ridden on the spring. 

Now, the fourth piece (far right) does not appear to have anything to do with the fuel pump and I think I know where it may have come from. When I removed the original distributor way back before beginning this post (before installing DUI distributor) I noticed that one of the teeth on the distributor gear was chipped. This looks like a perfect puzzle piece fit for that old chip. Could be wrong but it sure looks like it. 

I have just a couple quick questions. Would a fuel pump with a broken spring even pump (because apparently this one did at least a bit)? Also, it appears that when installing the new pump that the pump lever rests under the cam that can be seen through the port for the fuel pump, is that correct? It doesn't ride under a lifter/rod like in a Chevrolet, or am I not seeing the lifter/rod? Do I need to grease the new pump lever at all or will the engine oil take care of that? I know my technical terms may be off but hopefully I'm close enough to make sense.

The new fuel pump has arrived so I should be able to get it installed soon and report back. Hopefully after now finding something physically wrong/broken a final solution has been found. Although at this point I will believe it when I see it on the water under load and not requiring a tow.LOL

Thank you again for everyone's help, I really appreciate it. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-16-2022 at 7:50am
Most any car parts place should be able to help you with the fittings, just bring in the old ones for reference.

I've gotten some stuff from the Ebay seller referenced above and been plenty happy (along with 99.7 percent of his customers)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2022 at 11:41am
I forgot to ask where I might find new fittings (inlet/outlet) for the new fuel pump that the fuel lines thread into? I'm sure I can use the fitting in the old pump, but I thought I would try and find new if I could. Thanks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2022 at 11:31am
Thank you KENO. The pump you linked has been ordered. It may be from the Far East but its currently in Idaho now which is much closer and free shipping as well. Many reviews on quick shipping too so hopefully I can get that replaced soon.Thumbs Up

I was able to get the fuel pressure check done this am as well. Initially there was none while cranking and then it jumped to 6 psi. I tried it again and about the same. So I re-attached the fuel line and cranked it (I didn't crank it last time I raised and returned the float after I got home) a bit and it looked like some fuel in the primary bowl. I adjusted the float bowl up a bit and fuel level is back right in the middle of the window. When I tried this exact same thing at the lake after it died it did not produce the same result as it did today. In my novice opinion, it has to be a failing fuel pump. If we are correct it may also explain the hard start at the dock and loss of power at the top end (the only issue left after the fuel pump). Keeping in mind that I was the one stranded on the water for two hours so my opinion doesn't carry a lot of weight. 

This seems like really good news to me since I was really hoping to rule out the new carb. Any thoughts while I wait for the new fuel pump?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-15-2022 at 7:37am
If you're buying a fuel pump, I stumbled into one of these recently on a friends boat

link    EBAY

The ruptured diaphragm connection is on the rear of the pump instead of the front and on your Commander that's a good thing because the front connection can need modification to clear the back of the raw water pump, depending on the pump.

It probably looks pretty much just like a copy of your present pump.Wink

It's from "the Far East", he's put maybe 50 hours on it and so far so good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2022 at 7:38pm
Thank you JQ. I will check the fuel pressure again in the am. Please let there be none! I am really hoping that is the case. I will update tomorrow as to what I find. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2022 at 7:26pm
No fuel in the sight window provides a significant clue.  You can determine if the fuel pump is bad by checking the fuel pressure.  You should see between 5.5 to 6.5 pounds of pressure from your pump.  If not, then you may have found your problem.  Free-flowing from the fuel pump with no resistance may lead you to a false assumption.  It is possible that there is a needle/seat problem in the primary fuel bowl.  In my first M-600 QF carb, a stray bit of brass shaving got caught in the the needle/seat.  QF sent me a new needle/seat and the carby ran perfectly.  I strongly suspect that the fuel pump is the issue and not the carby.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2022 at 2:37pm
Well...here is the update after installing the new QF carburetor and fuel line. It was a long, interesting and frustrating day on the lake, but I will try to stay on point. So here is the good, the bad and the ugly.

New carb ran great on the trailer. Easy starts and restarts so I was hoping for the same at the lake. Backed the boat down the ramp into the water and it would not start. The look from the GF was not one of confidence. It acted like it was starving for fuel. After about ten minutes of breaks and multiple attempts with multiple throttle pumps each time it finally started and idled great.

The Good: Once launched, it shifted into gear with no hesitation or stumble at all which was one of the previous issues. It was extremely smooth and it was great! Throttled up past the no wake zone which was smooth all the way to WOT. The Ahhhh sound on the high end had disappeared. However, when I looked down, the RPMs still remained at 2700 and the speedometer showed about 30. The Ahhhh was gone but the top end speed remained about the same. So we were content with that for the day. Cruised around awhile and the low end issues were gone and found a spot to anchor for a bit. Started back up after awhile and low end issues were ok but not as quite as good as it was before shutting down for a bit. 

The Bad: After starting back up and idling out we cruised for a bit at maybe half throttle and then I opened it up to WOT, there was a pop which sounded like it came from the carb and it died. GF look number 2. After multiple attempts to restart, it sounded like it wasn't getting any fuel. A passing boat was nice enough to tow us to a cove away from the rocks so we could anchor up and call in for a tow. Which of course took two hours to arrive. GF long two hour look number 3. While waiting I could see that there was no fuel in the primary float window. 

The Ugly:
 
The long tow back to the dock. I told her it runs great as long as we are being towed. LOL Yup, you guessed it...GF look number 4.


After contemplating this from yesterday until now my thoughts are it has to be the fuel pump. The pump is definitely older if not original. It is also about the only thing that hasn't been replaced in the fuel system. So I decided to go out this am and turn the engine over a few times and see if I could get/see fuel in the primary window. There was none. I adjusted the float level on the primary float to raise the float and no change so I returned it to the original position. I disconnect the fuel line from the carb and turned the engine over a few times to see if fuel was being delivered and fuel pumped out into the can at the same rate when the fuel pressure and fuel flow was tested earlier in this post. I am so confused.
 
I am going to order a new fuel pump no matter what based on its age but I am confused. Ermm Why is there no fuel in the primary bowl on a brand new carburetor that was running fine (other than full top end), then dies, and the fuel pump seems to be delivering fuel? Am I lucky enough to get the one QF carb with issues? I also don't want to be tinkering around inside a brand new carb with no experience of rebuilding carburetors especially with what the new QF cost. Thoughts?

Additionally, any recommendations on a new fuel pump for this 351W. The one that is on it is a Carter with the internal filter. The new Carter pumps didn't have the best reviews. Is a pump with the internal filter necessary since it also has the fuel/water separator filter as well? 

Thanks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2022 at 5:06pm
I forgot to mention that the only adjustment I made to the QF was increasing the curb idle just a bit. There is a lot of good advice on here about not needing to make a bunch of adjustments to the QF, especially by novices like myself, and I followed that advice. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2022 at 4:58pm
I apologize for the brief delay in posting an update. I got the new QF and new fuel line installed last night and ran it on the trailer. It sounds better than it ever has (looks great with new QF as well). Something is definitely different in a good way. The idle was a lot smoother. Previously, anything under about 750 RPM it felt like it wanted to stall. That is not the case now, it can now idle much lower. I also ran the RPMs up to 3000 and it was extremely smooth as well, no  pops or hesitations. Additionally, when I shut it down for a few and tried a hot start. It started right up and idled great. Previously, I would have had to pump the throttle at least once before any hot start. I still have to take it out on the water and run it under load, but I am extremely confident that we may have found the solution in a new carburetor. 

I did want to share a few things in getting it installed that may help others in the future who decide to go the QF route. If you are using the Holley 12 degree wedge under your QF, the 3.50" carburetor studs in the rear worked perfect for me. The mechanic had used bolts (not sure why) in the rear with the 4160 which will not work with the QF as there is not enough clearance to insert a bolt on one side. 

The spark arrestor just barely hit the float adjustment hardware on the top of the QF so I decided to go the spacer route. JQ has a previous post with a B&B Air Cleaner Sure Seal 1.50" spacer and another one from K&N which got me looking and I found a few others. Sorry, I need to review how to post a link or quote some ones previous post. In any event, I also found a Stef's Fabrication 72255 B&B Performance Air Cleaner Sure Seal 1" spacer that should be here today. I know its only a 1/2" shorter but it looked like the clearance was going to be close. After I ordered it I also found a 1/2" spacer on the Holley/QF site made by Mr. Gasket. So just a few options if clearance may be a concern.

I just want to thank everyone again for all the help. I hope to get the boat on the lake in the next week or so and give it run under load and see how it does. I am very optimistic and I will update as soon as I do. Thanks again. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomrupp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-01-2022 at 1:46pm
We had similar issues with our 94 SNOB. We had rebuilt the carb, swapped out multiple accelerator pump nozzles, replaced fuel pump, learned that there should not be a fuel filter beyond the water fuel separator, replaced distributor (made sure to not be 1 tooth off). It still ran horribly. What finally worked for us was to adjust timing while in gear at idle to find where the old Ford liked it best. For us, this has finally made the difference. It’s never ran better from idle to 40+mph. It’s an easy try. Half inch socket with extension and a boating partner. Mark your timing first. If it doesn’t work, reset where you are now. I do not disagree with Keno’s timing numbers, but if your timing is off the mark, it could cause performance issues.
Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-01-2022 at 1:08pm
Uncle Buck is in the Houston area, and I was headed to Houston for work, so I offered to stop by and see if I could help out with his D.U.I. installation.  Buck had installed the dizzy but for some reason, the advance wasn't working and the timing was more-or-less stuck at 10 degrees BTDC.  We used a timing light and were getting NO advance.  When I pulled the distributor cap off, I attempted to manipulate the advance mechanism, but it was stuck.  I didn't use too much force, but it was clearly not moving.  Buck mentioned that he had tightened down the nylon screws on the advance mechanism. 

Something on the advance mechanism didn't look quite right, so I removed the nylon screws and did a quick inspection of the dizzy.  After poking around a bit, I was able to get the advance mechanism to freely rotate without issues.   Then I re-installed the nylon screws...not too tight.  Everything worked as it should.  Cap back on and the engine fired up and the advance curve was spot on.

At the time, my assumption was that the nylon screws had somehow impeded the advance mechanism from rotating.  Perhaps my poking around a bit somehow freed-up whatever was binding-up the advance mechanism.  As the dizzy worked as advertised, we buttoned-up everything up and I didn't give much more thought to the nylon screws.  Go figure...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-01-2022 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Your timing numbers tell you that everything is OK Wink

Yup.  If the timing advance curve is working as it should, then the timing advance mechanism in the DUI was not over-tightened.  Uncle Buck referred to this situation when he originally installed the DUI on his engine.  The timing advance was inoperable.  The timing stayed at 10 degrees BTDC.  As soon as I loosened the nylon bolts inside the DUI so that the advance mechanism moved freely, the timing advance mechanism worked as advertised.

JQ

There's gotta be some more to the story of what Buck did and you fixed to make his advance work.

I decided I'd pull out a parts DUI distributor yesterday and duplicate this overtightening feat to bind up the advance mechanism.

I tried everything I could considering my general wimpiness, and all that happened was nothing,............the advance worked fine, but I was strong enough to break a screw Wink.

So.............I fire off an e mail to the DUI guys, get an answer this morning and the precaution about overtightening is to keep from breaking the nylon screws and nothing to do with binding up the advance mechanism. They use nylon to prevent arcing.

Looking at where the screws go in relation to the advance mechanism, it's just not possible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-31-2022 at 6:44pm
Thank you KENO and JQ. That makes a lot of sense and I was hoping that was the case. The new QF and the new fuel line are en route. I will update when I get them installed. Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-31-2022 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Your timing numbers tell you that everything is OK Wink

Yup.  If the timing advance curve is working as it should, then the timing advance mechanism in the DUI was not over-tightened.  Uncle Buck referred to this situation when he originally installed the DUI on his engine.  The timing advance was inoperable.  The timing stayed at 10 degrees BTDC.  As soon as I loosened the nylon bolts inside the DUI so that the advance mechanism moved freely, the timing advance mechanism worked as advertised.

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Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
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Points: 10726
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-31-2022 at 3:51pm
Your timing numbers tell you that everything is OK Wink
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AZ86SKI View Drop Down
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Joined: July-05-2022
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Points: 115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-31-2022 at 2:09pm
Thank you for the latest possible ideas. I checked the fuel line again and there are no kinks and there does not appear to be any restrictions. The previous fuel pressure and fuel flow tests checked out as well. 

The distributor was installed by the mechanic so that is something I can check. I read through the instructions from Performance Distributors and it clearly states "do not over tighten" the 2 nylon rotor hold down screws. In determining if they were over tightened, should the rotor (or something else) do or not do something if they are in fact over tightened? Also the initial timing was set and confirmed at 12* and the total timing was confirmed at about 35*. Not sure if those timing numbers would exclude a possible over tightening problem but I just thought I would mention in case it did. Thanks
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uncle-buck View Drop Down
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Joined: June-14-2004
Location: United States
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Points: 318
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-30-2022 at 11:17pm
Chiming in here with one more idea. Check the rotor in the D.U.I. and make sure the nylon rotor hold-down screws haven't been over tightened. Refer to the instructions that came with the D.U.I.

I installed a D.U.I. in my boat last year and made the mistake of over tightening those screws. Boat exhibited nearly identical symptoms. Jonny Quest figured it out, fixed it, and all is well.
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MourningWood View Drop Down
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Joined: June-13-2014
Location: NorCal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-29-2022 at 5:46pm
Wait up...is there a chance that the hand-made hardline from the fuel pump to carb is 'kinked'? Or otherwise restricted?
1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"

'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!"
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