1989 SN Water in Oil / Wet Plug |
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Posted: February-07-2023 at 4:09pm |
Hi Everyone, I have a 1989 Ski Nautique,
and I have a small trace of water in the oil. The oil it not like a
milkshake, but on the dip stick, I see a bit of white looking reside/goo
with some bubbles higher up on the dip stick. The oil on the lower part
of the dip stick looks in pretty good shape. The
engine is still running fine, but I pulled the plugs, and the plug from
cylinder no.1 (closest to driver seat) had some water droplets on it.
The others were dry. I
have removed the starboard riser, and when doing so, I noticed that the
riser bolts seemed a lot looser than I was expecting. I was prepared to
have a battle to remove them, but the took almost no force to loosen.
So I thought that might have been the issue - leaking gaskets. However, I
don't see any rust marks inside the riser or looking down into the
exhaust manifold. It has a smooth carbon/soot layer. The riser gaskets also looked in good shape. I haven't removed the exhaust manifold yet. I
have owned the board for about 15 years, and I can see that the riser
gaskets were installed the wrong way round (blocking the incorrect
port!). So I'll have to change that, since I assume that will affect the
cooling? Is that a major concern? I was assuming my issue was a bad riser gasket... but they look better than I was expecting. Any advise on what to check next? A compression test? Could a bad head gasket cause this water leak? If that passes, I assume I should remove the exhaust manifold? FYI - I live in South Africa, Cape Town, where we never reach freezing temperatures, so a crack due to that is not possible. Thanks in advance, Greg
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11164 |
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I think since you're thinking of pulling the exhaust manifold, you should pull that side valve cover and see if there's a gooey milkshake mess in the head and valve cover. With the manifold off, you can get a better look at the #1 cylinder exhaust passage in the head and in the manifold.
Like you're thinking, do a compression check since a bad head gasket could cause water in the cylinder and it can leak by the rings into the oil. Take a picture with the valve cover off. With the riser gaskets installed the right way, the top of your risers will be a lot cooler to the touch |
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Awesome, thanks Will post photos and the results of the above ASAP. |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3772 |
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If my thinking is correct the engine gets water from the Raw Water Pump before it diverts cooling water to your exhaust manifolds so the engine should not have any overheat issues due to your exhaust gasket being wrong but your exhaust would have been hot with the gasket wrong.
Has the engine been overheated in the past months? Engine overheats can crush your head gasket and cause a leak into the chamber. It can also crack a cylinder head and do the same. When the heads get hot they expand more than normal. This expansion crushes the head gasket and it will fail soon after. Usually not right away but within the next 20 times you use it so many times people forget about the overheat that caused the gasket to fail. With this type overheat the crush happens where it was the most hot so Cylinder 1 can fail while cylinder 3 is fine. If you check torque on the head bolts the bolts around the failure point will be looser than all other head bolts. With the valve cover and exhaust off you could check torque in few minutes. If the #1 cylinder has been leaking coolant into the chamber the cylinder head chamber will be very clean and the piston head will be very clean. When your fuel charge explodes as the engine runs it will turn the water in there into steam which steam cleans that chamber and piston head. The larger your leak the cleaner they get. A large leak would foul the plug and you would have a dead miss. Maybe stick a scope into that #1 cylinder and look at the piston head and valves to see if they have been cleaned by steam and the valve could be rusty. You would see this looking into the exhaust port. The exhaust valve might be rusty. You said the engine runs good so maybe the problem is minor but water should not be on the spark plug. Good Luck |
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Thanks Guys. There were no signs of overheating (I always keep a very close eye on the temp gauge always between 150 and 160). About a year ago, I saw my normal running temp was sometimes climbing about 10 degrees higher than normal (after slowing after a hard run), then I replaced the raw water pump which had worn bearings. But I don't think that was in issue. It never climbed of 170. Yesterday I wanted to do a compression test, but with the plug removed, there were very small puffs of water misting out the plug hole when cranking. This morning, I removed the exhaust manifold, and there are no signs of any water (no rust steaks, etc). They actually look in very good condition. The exhaust port on the head looks clean too (black). Then I noticed that there was a lot of water in the cylinder. So much that I had to suck out with a syringe (via the spark plug plug hole). Could it be an intake manifold leak between the water passage and intake port at cylinder 1? Could a bad intake gasket cause a leak like this?
I'm going to pull the intake later today. |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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So I removed the intake manifold, and the oil/water mix is worse than my initial photo showed on the dip stick (which was before I headed back to the dock). Lots of milk shake all over And the "heat shield" was loose! Lying in the position shown! I can't see any obvious signs of a leak in the manifold gasket at cylinder 1 and no signs of any rust in the intake ports (intake or head). After cleaning the goop off the intake, it looks like this. Clearly a hole in the "exhaust passage/bypass" but it seems like that doesn't lead anywhere - the exhaust ports on the intake are solid cast iron i.e. don't seem to be used? Based on this, should I replace the manifold anyway, even if it is not the cause of the water leak? So maybe it is the head/head gasket? Can I still do a compression test in this state of disassembly? Refit the distributor? Feels like I am going down a rabbit hole |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11164 |
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You can compression test it in that condition, but putting the distributor back in to drive the oil pump is a good idea (no power to the distributor and no need to worry about TDC etc, it just has to turn the oil pump) and disconnecting the fuel pump suction hose is also a good idea, so that you're not spraying fuel out the discharge line Also leave the valve covers on for "less mess"
edit and take the RWP belt off if you haven't already done that
The rabbit hole gets deeper with no obvious sign of where the leakage is from. I think replacement would be the best intake manifold approach
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Great, thanks. Really appreciate the assistance I'll post my results ASAP. |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11164 |
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You mentioned that the ports in the manifold for the exhaust crossover passage are solid or are plugged.
The 2 blue lines are pointing at what I think you're saying are plugged. Ford didn't build it that way Some intake gaskets blank off the crossover passage, some leave it open and come with small stainless steel spacers/blanks that can be installed when installing the gaskets, if somebody wants to block off the heat passage. Leaving them open or blocking them off is one of those things that people will always disagree about, but in your case that big gaping hole makes up your mind for you or the guy before you that blanked them off. If that's the case and the boat was running fine except for the water issue, the manifold should be able to be reused. Now as far as what caused the exhaust to burn through that cast iron.........that's a good question Being in South Africa, like Wilhelm Hertzog here on the site, I'd imagine you have the same availability and cost issues that he does, leading to some creative solutions.
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Hi Keno, Yes, that is correct. At the blue arrows, the intake is solid. Must have been the previous owner that had the intake blocked off, maybe after the exhaust passage burnt through? There was a sticker on the engine from an engineering shop... so the engine was definitely worked on at some point (more than 15 years ago). When I clean the surfaces of the intake, I'll see if there is any evidence of a "blanking" operation on those exhaust ports. I'll also clean up the hole, to make sure than no rusting pieces can fall off in the long run. A new intake will be double the price once it lands in South Africa So reusing the old one will save a lot of cash! Wilhelm and I have chatted a few times in the past to compare notes
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3772 |
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You can see in your photos a lot of silicone was used around the water ports at both ends of your heads. A little bit to fill in pitted spots around the ports is fine. Your engine had a LOT of silicone used. You can see it squeezed out and actually reached the intake ports. Gasoline vapor will turn silicone into a grease like substance and cause the intake port to leak. You do not want silicone exposed to the intake Air Fuel Mix. That is a big No No in the engine world. Might be why you had water in your #1 cylinder. Could be the cause of your water in the engine.
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I was not happy to see that amount of sealant used. I know the newer/better gaskets have their own "bead" to seal the water ports better. If there was a leak from the water port to the intake port, wouldn't I see some rust in the intake port? |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2997 |
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I recognize that being located in South Africa has challenges in cost and availability, but if possible, an upgrade to an aluminum intake manifold would be a nice upgrade in terms of engine performance and weight. The Edelbrock Performer or Performer RPM intake manifolds are nice options. Also, the Weiand Stealth Intake manifold is an option. Fel-Pro intake gasket number 1262 S-3 may be a good choice for the 351W SBF marine application. I believe that these gaskets already have the exhaust cross-over port blocked.
As mentioned above with the RTV silicone, just a SMALL bead around the water port is all that's needed...that and a good-sized bead on the "China Walls" instead of the cork or rubber options.
JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Thanks JQ. If I do replace the intake, I had my eye on the Edelbrock Performer 2181 (with carb adapter 2732). I believe it will fit under the hood without any changes to my flame arrestor, etc. Thanks for confirming the gasket, and China Wall info
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11164 |
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I don't think some extra RTV caused your problem since it took at least 15 years for the leak to show up and then show no signs of water/rust in the intake port on the head either
I think the problem hasn't been found yet.
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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So, I managed to do a compression test (just cylinders 1 to 4). It is an old gauge, so not sure how accurate it is, but at least it seems to show that cylinder 1 compression isn't lower than the rest. No 2 is actually the lowest. But in general they are all quite low? 1 - 115 2 - 95 3 - 110 4 - 100 A few things to note - not sure if it matters...The engine was cold and the cranking was slow (I think my starter motor is busy going - I have a new one still to be fitted). I did squirt a bit of oil into the cylinders.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11164 |
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I think this is the time when you decide whether you want to pull the head(s) and see if there's any sign of water.
If you do, make sure the engine is drained first, so a bunch of water doesn't get into the cylinders from the head when it's first lifted off Compression may not be great but it's OK and you said the engine ran fine but you noticed the small amount of water back in the first post. And like you said it could be the gauge.
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Finally, an update... but thing don't look good. I pulled the head, and I can't see any obvious issues there. But inside cylinder 1, there was some surface rust, but one bright orange "bubbly" line. Cleaned it off, and can see a crack So time to start shopping for a new block / crate engine? Not going to be easy here in South Africa.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2997 |
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Greg:
That cracked cylinder is very unfortunate. Depending on parts availability and cost, a new block and a full rebuild would be my first suggestion. After that, a drop-in remanufactured engine would be my second choice. ATK Remanufactured Marine Engines is an option. I know several people that have gone that route with good success. I don't know what international shipping and duty/import taxes in S.A. would look like, but either way, it will likely be expensive. Best of luck to you. JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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swilliams
Senior Member Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Cincinnati,Ohio Status: Offline Points: 236 |
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Forgive me for my ignorance but can that be sleeved?
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1976 Martinique,350 Omc. 1975 Glastron/Carlson CV16,115 Merc.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3772 |
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In the USA a machine shop could certainly install a sleeve in that block and you would have a 100% repair. My question would be why is that cylinder cracked? If the engine had been bored out and is running larger pistons a crack is more possible but still rare. Almost never see a stock bore block crack down the cylinder.
Makes me wonder if that block had been hydro locked at some point, water in the cylinder can cause extreme pressure, usually we see a bent connecting rod or broken piston from hydro lock. When they sleeve a cylinder they take a boring tool and oversize the cylinder to receive a pre made sleeve. The sleeve is pressed in and the block is decked giving you a brand new cylinder finish. It is a proven process but I do not know what parts and machine shop tools are available for you in Africa.
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Thanks guys. I have a friend in the marine industry, and he has already sent photos to his contacts to advise on a sleeve. Also investigating the ATK long block options. But I think the shipping and duties are going to be very high. Either way, in the mean time I'll strip the rest of the accessories and prepare to pull the motor.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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Wilhelm Hertzog
Senior Member Joined: June-14-2014 Location: Cape Town Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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Greg, I'll send you a WhatsApp. I sourced a new block in great condition for my engine for a very reasonable price a few years ago through a lmuscle car builder here in Cape Town. There is actually a pretty vibrant muscle car scene here in SA, and Windsor engines do float around locally.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Awesome, thanks Wilhelm Any leads would be great. I'll also call a few engine builders tomorrow and see if I can find anything.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11164 |
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Well, I guess the good news is that you found the problem and maybe you've reached the bottom of the rabbit hole.
Not knowing if the block is an 89 original with 34 years of corrosion in the cooling system or if it's a newer one, I'd get the whole block checked real good before sleeving one cylinder, since you probably wouldn't be too happy if it happened to another cylinder a short time later Those pistons aren't original to an 89 PCM 351W so there's a chance the block was bored, oversized pistons used and there's not a lot of wall thickness left in any of the cylinders Myself, I'm hoping you find something like Wilhelm did
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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So using the Wilhelm's engine builder contact, I may have found a 351w long block that is in very good shape, with a performer (non-RPM) intake. Price is also good. It is automotive though. At least my '89 is standard rotation, but I have a few questions. I would obviously fit all my marine accessories: - distributor (original prestolite) - circulation pump (bought from SkiDim a few years back) - carburetor (Quick Fuel M-600) with proper fuel line. - starter (Arco 70200) - alternator (original) - fuel pump (bought from SkiDim a few years ago) - oil pan? for clearance? Not sure if this matters in the '89 which is mounted "level" Are the automotive block/heads compatible? - For my raw water cooling, I assume I should fit brass freeze plugs. In the block and head? - Is the marine camshaft different? Does it matter? - Any other internals that are different? Anything I am missing... If it can't work, then I'll have to look at other options.
Thanks for all the help so far! |
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3772 |
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Good find, Marine cams were a little more aggressive than the automotive passenger car and truck cam. These engines had a low RPM top speed, 4,600 RPM I think. The cam was matched to make best power in that range.In a boat a strong idle is mandatory so cam selection is usually very tame, more like an RV cam for truck use. All other internal parts should be the same. For marine use engine builders traditionally will loosen up the Piston to Cylinder wall clearance maybe .0005 or 1/2 thousandth. They may leave a little more crank and rod clearance but not much. If you run the automotive engine as is the only thing I would advise it a warm up before any hard use. The extra clearance marine builders use is to protect the engine against abuse by boat drivers that ignore the common warm up procedures and ignore that the marine engine typically runs colder than the automotive. 140 vs 190*.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11164 |
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Some other things to transfer from your old engine would be
Timing cover......it gives a place to mount the Raw Water Pump bracket, the automotive one will be different Flywheel.....your marine one is 157 teeth, automotive 351's were 164 teeth Damper plate, you might consider a new one while everything is apart With the Edelbrock intake, make sure you use the spacer plate you mentioned earlier, an Edelbrock 2732 or there are other brands that accomplish the same thing. Use wide gaskets on both sides of the plate. You mentioned the oil pan, it may take some comparing or a test fit in the boat, but if you swap pans, swap the oil pump suction tube and strainer to go with the pan and if you have an oil pan drain hose swap that over before the engine goes in. And like you mentioned the freeze plugs in the block and the heads could get changed to brass. Steel will eventually rust out. The camshafts aren't much different at all, but if for some reason you swap, make sure the lifters get swapped too and stay with their associated camshaft lobes. Not really knowing anything about the new engine like amount of use it's had, what it has for internals, is it a rebuild etc makes it kinda hard to talk about clearances, cams etc |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2997 |
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Nice list KENO. I'm assuming that the long block does not have valve covers. If, by chance, the long block has valve covers, I would consider keeping the PCM units as the automotive version may not play nice with the exhaust risers and clearance. What heads are on the long block? Recent valve job?
JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Greg_SA
Senior Member Joined: April-19-2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Thanks Keno and JQ for all the tips. At least is looks like the engine can work. I'll discuss all of this with the engine rebuilder, and decide what I do and what he does The long block has valve covers, but I plan to use my PCM aluminum valve covers (get them cleaned up and repainted). Will also look into the new damper plate - only down side is that he price doubles by the time it gets to me But I also don't want to have a "new" engine that I need to pull again soon.
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1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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