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Aluminum Heads?

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leo0648 View Drop Down
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    Posted: May-17-2007 at 5:15pm
Ok, I know this is a correct craft website, but I own a nautique 2001. This question is for my dad's malibu response with the hammerhead engine. We run the boat in brackish water and the aluminum heads just corrode away. The first time the heads were leaking water into the oil pan, so we had them welded. Everything was going fine, and then 200 hours later, the heads have corroded once again.

My question is, can we just replace the heads with cast iron. The aluminum replacements cost about $1500 and cast iron is much cheaper. What would be the consequences of doing so. I know the engine and EFI is programmed for the aluminum heads, but what if we got cast iron with similar characteristics.

Thanks guys, hopefully some of you can help me out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2007 at 5:53pm
which engine do you have? chevy LS? aluminum block? or were they aftermarket, do you guys flush after use? a little more info is needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2007 at 6:14pm
The boat is a 2001 Malibu response lx with the 365hp hammerhead 350 chevy engine. Everything is stock. The block is cast iron, but the heads are the racing aluminum heads. We flush after each use, but the aluminum heads just cant handle the brackish water. The first time we had the problem, heads looked like a sponge from all the pits from corrosion. We had them resurfaced, welded, and resurfaced again. All of the holes were welded pretty good, but I guess it corroded again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2007 at 6:16pm
That is from the first time. I am assuming once we take the engine apart again, it will look the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2007 at 7:27pm
three words, closed circuit cooling.
indmar really should have known.

Don't bastard the hamerhead, just add the heat exchanger and accessories to run 50/50 coolant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-17-2007 at 7:41pm
Yea I know. But the water is barely salt, so we thought flushing would be enough. The block is still in good condition. It is only the heads that corrode.

I plan on adding closed cooling if we can replace with cast iron. If I have to replace with aluminum, we wont be able to afford it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 7:29am
there is no reason you cant use cast heads on the cast block, to make sure call the summit tech line,
the set will have to be for the vortech with similar valves, i do not think the computer will notice this type of change and if it does it may recalibrate by itself
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 9:56am
Are you sure Eric. My dad is a firm believer in replacing the EXACT part. He hates watching rednecks modify engines and then destroying them down the line.

My argument to him was 'this is a performance engine with performance parts. By putting cast iron heads, we are actually downgrading the hp. Which means less load on the performance parts built for higher loads. So therefore we will end up with a longer lasting engine.' He still doesn't buy it. He thinks when a company engineers and engine, every part is built specifically for certain specifications and by changing the heads we will screw up the whole engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 10:59am
Originally posted by leo0648 leo0648 wrote:

He thinks when a company engineers and engine, every part is built specifically for certain specifications and by changing the heads we will screw up the whole engine.


Ok so corrode another set of AL heads or buy some iron ones. What is the problem here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 11:50am
I KNOW!!! That is what I told him. I know we ride in brackish water, and yes we should have fresh water cooling. But we flush after every trip. And the block in still in great condition. It is only the heads that corrode, you would think it was a no brainer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 11:59am
When you flush, does it get hot enough to open the tstat? else you are just flushing the manifolds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 12:08pm
The engine is normally warm because we flush within 15 minutes after leaving the lake. Then we flush for 5-10 minutes. The engine should be at normal running temperature by then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 12:18pm
I suspect that is insufficient
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 12:26pm
How so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 3:14pm
The tstat is only going to crack open if at all, because there is no load on the engine.

The little fresh water that does go in the block and heads does not positively displace the salinated water, it dilutes it, because it is still circulating.

It would take quite a while for the salt to leave the building.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JR_VIC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 4:15pm
One thing to consider is contacting cam research in Colorado. I just bought a new set of aluminum AFR heads from them and even though I am in fresh water (not brackish) I opted for a special coating they apply to the inner water jackets to protect the aluminum from corrosion. It costs about $200 for V-8 small block heads. I would give them a call. Hope that helps...

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 9:00pm
you need too find a cast set of vortechs with it looks like .202 intakes and .160 exhausts,
if you match this with the correct chambers they should be identical in preformance, by bolting on aluminum heads doesnt mean the engine is a high performance engine, it means it is lighter. I'm 99% sure you can find identical heads in cast such as the Vortech heads. if you do the computor will not sense cast or aluminum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 87BFN owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-18-2007 at 9:24pm
leo what makes your dad think rednecks can not propperly make mods to a motor without messing it up?

Some of the best engine builder are rednecks, don't take this post serios just giving you some crap.. I would go with another set of alums to make your dad happy and have cam research coat them for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nuttyskier2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-19-2007 at 4:40am
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

you need too find a cast set of vortechs with it looks like .202 intakes and .160 exhausts,
if you match this with the correct chambers they should be identical in preformance, by bolting on aluminum heads doesnt mean the engine is a high performance engine, it means it is lighter. I'm 99% sure you can find identical heads in cast such as the Vortech heads. if you do the computor will not sense cast or aluminum


Eric, there is something to consider here about aluminum vs cast iron. Aluminum heads dissipate head more efficiently as well as heat and cool more evenly than cast iron. This means that you can safely run a higher compression ratio with them (at least a whole point more). GM knows this and that's one reason why they use aluminum heads on many of their high performance engines. While it's true that his engine's computer will sense any knock and adjust timing (retard it) to eliminate it, he will lose some performance in the process due to the computer making these adjustments. That is if the Electronic Spark Control (EST) system has wide enough of an operating window. I think I'd want to check with one of GM's or PCM's engineers first before doing this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-19-2007 at 8:26am
he's in a catch 22, in a perfect world i would throw another set of aluminum heads on there and be done with and in another couple throw another set on when they fail again,
But, I dont think they want to keep coughing up 1500 beans every couple years. Yes I would call a GM guy and see what the pro and cons are and what the performance loss would be if any, minimal I believe, minimal enough to go with the cast heads. one good thing about boat moters is that you have an endless supply of cool water
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-19-2007 at 10:34pm
Hey guys,

I just got back from looking at a project nautique in SC.

Looks like this forum is starting to open up with suggestions and debate. As far as performance goes, I dont really care about losing 10-20 hp. The engine is rated at 365 hp. We never run the engine at WOT. Only wakeboarding speeds of 23mph. If anything, I would rather less hp and save on the fuel.

My biggest concern is if I swap to cast iron, is that I will cause engine problems down the road.

Yes, rednecks make good engines, but they only last for 500 laps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-20-2007 at 1:11pm
[QUOTE=leo0648]
My biggest concern is if I swap to cast iron, is that I will cause engine problems down the road.
QUOTE]You will not cause engine trouble switching to cast iron. The only difference really is going to be a heavier head that doesnt dissipate (sp?) heat as quickly. But i dont think the difference will be noticeable with the performance nor heat. If you wanted you could have a slight port job and bigger valves to pick up a little bit of power, but you said that didnt concern you really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-20-2007 at 2:50pm
I dont care about the loss of power. This is a strong engine, I wouldnt even notice 10-20hp loss.

That makes sense 'Gottaski'. Would rev'in up the engine while flush make the t-stat open?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reidp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-20-2007 at 5:50pm
This horse is dead already, or maybe it was just the redneck comment that got me. While I like the idea of the cast iron heads like Eric and others said, if DAD is really set on going back to the original, then follow GottaSki's excellent advice and go with closed/fresh water cooling. PCM's alum component engines have this, and which the engine should have had to begin with, unless of course it was built or sold by a redneck.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-20-2007 at 7:09pm
Ok, I am gonna call Summit tomorrow and see what they think.

Last question: Will all the bolts from the aluminum heads fit the cast iron? And will the intake work with cast iron heads?

I dont see why they wouldn't if they are both vortec castings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wannabeSS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-20-2007 at 7:14pm
They should fit, but does PCM use torque-to-yield bolts like GM does? If they do i suggest getting new arp bolts. And the manifold should fit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rudderdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-20-2007 at 10:33pm
Sure glad that there a no rednecks named Shelby, Garlits, or Petty out there, cause that sure screw up Le Mans and Nascar youse guys. Y'know Mastercraft made there powerslot by putting a bigger prop on, and where it scratched the hull is where they built an indention, and called it the powerslot. High ho reneck away!!!!!!
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Sure glad that there a no rednecks named Shelby, Garlits, or Petty out there, cause that sure screw up Le Mans and Nascar youse guys. Y'know Mastercraft made there powerslot by putting a bigger prop on, and where it scratched the hull is where they built an indention, and called it the powerslot. High ho redneck away!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leo0648 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-21-2007 at 9:54am
I took the heads off yesterday, and sure enough, they corroded again. A very small hole around the firing ring was letting water into the 6th cylinder.

Here are the numbers I pulled off
0-12367712
B6529-3
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