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Has anyone changed their primary jets?

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    Posted: January-05-2016 at 1:58am
Hey All
While reading about the Holley 4160, it seemed like the car motorheads like it because it is customizable. It looks like there are different ways to tweak it including playing with the primary jets. I have .66 jets in now. What would going up or down a size do?
Tom
1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2016 at 9:15am
Easy to change jets, but be careful there as you can do harm.

Best thing is to do a 'plug chop' to read current mixture level.

Run at WOT for a few minutes, then cut the throttle/ignition quickly. Take one or more plugs out. They should be light tan. White = lean, dark = rich.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2016 at 9:56am
Going up makes it rich, down leans it out. One size either way probably wouldn't do a whole lot. It's a minimal change and one you probably wouldn't notice.

This is the simplified process.
When you start changing jets you have to pay attention to the air/fuel ratios. New wave motorheads will use an O2 sensor to read what the A/F ratio is but that isn't a viable option with a wet exhaust. At least not without a whole lotta work to plumb an O2 sensor bung into the exhaust manifolds before the wet exhaust.

Old school way is put a new set of plugs in, disconnect the secondaries so they can't open and run it wide open and shut it down by cutting the ignition and not the throttle. If you start getting detonation, you're too lean, shut it down immediately and put bigger jets in.
Pull the plugs and see what color the insulator is. Grey is bad (lean, starting to melt pieces of piston), white is good, tan is OK (rich, not as efficient but better then grey). Not really a scientific process and even experienced tuners can misread plugs this way but can get you in the ballpark.
Better yet is to cut the threaded portion of the plug back to so you can closely look at the base of the insulator to see how much of a soot ring you have. Measuring it will tell you if you can go lean or rich.
It's purely a trial and error method, time consuming and wastes lots of plugs but can effective if done properly and carefully.

If you really want to dial it in then you do the same thing with the secondaries opening to tune them. On a 4160 the secondary side is much more difficult to do because you would have to change out the whole metering plate. A whole nother discussion that I won't get into but you get the idea.

Generally, factory carbs are fat from the factory so going down a couple jets sizes usually won't hurt but pay attention to the plugs. It's always better to be too rich than too lean.
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



Eddie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2016 at 1:18pm
I concur,
White plug is a good plug and nothing to fear if you have stock jetting. As Eddie says, A grey plug, is bad.
Tan means one is giving up combustion temps, Its a heat engine, higher peak heat means more expansion, means more power.
Whit emeans the plug is self-cleaning, buring the carbon, as it was designed to.

Look at most plugs from holley marine 600's and 66 jets, the plugs will be be white, just like the fuel injected boats and cars.
Yes, the indicater is the soot ring at the base of the insulator. One needs a scope or cut the threads off to see it. Should be 1.5 - 2 mm wide. Eddie's precedures are spot on.

Most 'universal' carbs are set up fat to keep hot rotdders from fragging their engines.
But, application specific marine carbs, like yours, are not.

To sum up, unless your engine is modified, there is likely nothing to be gained with jetting because someone has already done the homework.

Fine tuning of low-mid transition on launch can be done by changing the PV, that adjusts when (above what vacuum) extra fuel is delivered during the transition from lean cruise, to loaded , but does not change the total volume of fuel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2016 at 1:30pm
Tom was saying it doesn't have the punch out of the hole it used to have. Could be explained by a smaller power valve in the latest carburetor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2016 at 4:10pm
Inded Hollywood, Very well could be.
Rebuilt kits and new carbs have been packed with 2.5 powervalves for some years now.

Maybe newer hulls and props may respond to the 2.5 but i think the typical tournament boat does not. It may be a failed attempt to provide some economy at tube or wakeboard speeds <gak>

On a fresh holley carb, I find the 2.5 PV dull between (about) 1500-2500-rpm when accelerating from the hole

The PV in automobile land toggles the carb between lean economy cruise and heavily loaded conditions depending upon manifold vacuum,

marine parasytic loading is much more linear to MPH than in automotive enrironments. For instance a car can maintain 55mph with only 15-20 hp, hence the desire for a lean economy cruise.

Since marine loading does not correlare to lean cruise highway running, I feel waiting till manifold pressure rises above 2.5" is too late to apply the extra 25% more fuel from the pvco's, hence the dull acceleration.

Years ago, i remember PV's were 5.5's in the rebuild kits.

A few of us here have swapped in 6.5 PVCO's and have had positive results eliminating that low-midrange transition lean/dull spot upon a hard launch.

Remember it doesn't change the volume of fuel, just when it applies it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seacamper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-05-2016 at 10:10pm
Hey Guys,
I just rebuilt this one and it has a new 6.5 PV in it. I am "satisfied" with the punch it has now, BUT it just seemed marginal. I guess I could check and see if the secondaries are kicking in at the right time.
1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Open Bow
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Closed Bow
1969 Seacamper Houseboat
1986 Harris Pontoon
2004 Seadoo GTX SC + Flydive Xboard
1999 Adventurecraft
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-06-2016 at 11:49am
So, where exactly in the range do you find it lacking ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seacamper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-08-2016 at 12:50am
Just the initial punch off the dock for a dock start.
1980 Ski Nautique Boat Bar
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Open Bow
1988 Mastercraft Tristar Closed Bow
1969 Seacamper Houseboat
1986 Harris Pontoon
2004 Seadoo GTX SC + Flydive Xboard
1999 Adventurecraft
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-08-2016 at 11:18am
Ok, so you are chasing that strong off-idle snap,..
It must be stuttering or a bit dull off-idle when you mash it. In worse case, an occasional stall.

Best for that is two things...
IF all else is in order, (No vacuum leaks, no idle fuel orifice clogged in the metering block, accel pump set to do its thing right off idle)

Then this combination ..
1) set timing at least 10btdc at idle, if you can get 1-2 more, even better.
2) set the idle mix screws to achive the strongest idle .while in gear,either tied to the dock, or just idling out in the open water.

( this loading simulates the automotove idle mix set procedue from decades ago for an auto trans, set brake, block wheels, put into drive, set idle mix to strongest idle, reset idle stop. )

I prefer the open water vs dock, because then i can feel the inertia of the boat with my legs and get even more tactile feedback to the idle mix adjustments.

Conversly, setting the idle mix to fastest observed rpm when in neutral, will achive two things, A studder off idle, and an excessively large drop in rpm when placed into gear, because the mix will be set too lean; a higher rpm position, but a too lean mixture, very unresiliant to loading, and acceleration)

If either idle mix screws are ineffective (either should stall the engine when closed), then the metering block is boogared up, and the performance you desire will not be achieved until remedied.

This should net the off-idle snap and confidence upon a hard launch you aim for.

Glad you inquired before changing jets, becuase that wouldn't have adressed the symptom, as the mains have little effect off idle, well, as long as they are in installed.
One would not resolve differences between sizing off-idle.
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

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