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83 Nautique 2001 - Mercruiser Chev 350 260 issue

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tryathlete View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-06-2017 at 3:08pm
The troubles I read about resulting from fresh water cooling of our exhaust manifolds is almost never-ending. The whole deal makes me wish for cherry red exhaust headers but I suppose there's going to be trouble getting that exhaust out of the boat without creating a burn hazard of some kind to the boat or the occupants!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-06-2017 at 10:01pm
I still have a scar on my forearm from a Jet Boat with open Dry Stack headers.   Had a carb flooding event on the river 30 years ago in a fast current, busy fixing the carb when a cabin cruiser went by and threw a 3 foot wave at us. The boat rocked and my forearm hit the exhaust.   
I NEVER want a boat with dry stacks.   Took about a 2x2 piece of skin and burned it about 1/8 inch deep.   Took most of the summer to heal. Cool exhaust to the touch is a really nice upgrade.
I don't care if it costs me some horse power.
BTW: we switched that Jet to through the transom exhaust soon after the mishap.
I don't think it cost 100 RPM wide open but made it much more pleasant to own.

PS: Another cabin cruiser stopped and helped us, he even gave me Gin FIzzes to dull the burn pain. We fixed the carb and went back to skiing. Pretty sure that would not have happened without the Gin influence. Dealt with the burn later.
Boaters can be amazing people at times!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-06-2017 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I still have a scar on my forearm from a Jet Boat with open Dry Stack headers.   Had a carb flooding event on the river 30 years ago in a fast current, busy fixing the carb when a cabin cruiser went by and threw a 3 foot wave at us. The boat rocked and my forearm hit the exhaust.   
I NEVER want a boat with dry stacks.   Took about a 2x2 piece of skin and burned it about 1/8 inch deep.   Took most of the summer to heal. Cool exhaust to the touch is a really nice upgrade.
I don't care if it costs me some horse power.
BTW: we switched that Jet to through the transom exhaust soon after the mishap.
I don't think it cost 100 RPM wide open but made it much more pleasant to own.

PS: Another cabin cruiser stopped and helped us, he even gave me Gin FIzzes to dull the burn pain. We fixed the carb and went back to skiing. Pretty sure that would not have happened without the Gin influence. Dealt with the burn later.
Boaters can be amazing people at times!


Ouch! So many burns, so many tales--and that's just from cars. Yeah I'd never lift the cover if I knew there were glowing hot headers down there. I wonder what wins--aloe Vera or gin fizzies! I'll take the gin. I met Mike Ditka on a plane once and he said if there's something hurting you real bad, just go back out and play--because the next hurt will make you forget how badly the last one hurt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-06-2017 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by tryathlete tryathlete wrote:

The troubles I read about resulting from fresh water cooling of our exhaust manifolds is almost never-ending.


I would bet that 90% of the problems you read about are due to owners ignorance by not maintaining little things like impellers and hoses or riser gaskets that start weeping. Losing the cooling water to the manifolds for even a few seconds at any speed above an idle could be disastrous.
Then the remaining 10% of the problems comes from improper winterizing freezing the water jacket. Well OK, maybe 9%. There's always exceptions and something can just fail.

My point is that premature failure is an extremely small percentage and most of the never ending problems are self induced.
When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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geecee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-10-2017 at 1:58am
Havent had time to even look at the boat this week,
but I may have found another 2001 in great condition (from the photos)
all original even with the horns on the bow, has the pcm ford engine instead of the mercruiser chevy power plant.

hoping to strike a deal next week and see where it goes.

better half is a little concerned about having three boats in the yard however
1983 Ski Nautique '2001'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules_ZA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-14-2017 at 5:00am
Originally posted by geecee geecee wrote:

Havent had time to even look at the boat this week,
but I may have found another 2001 in great condition (from the photos)
all original even with the horns on the bow, has the pcm ford engine instead of the mercruiser chevy power plant.

hoping to strike a deal next week and see where it goes.

better half is a little concerned about having three boats in the yard however


Hey Geecee

Where in SA are you based??

I have a cracking mechanic who is passionate about the old classics, and doesn't break the bank either.

Cheers

d
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-14-2017 at 5:03am
Originally posted by Hercules_ZA Hercules_ZA wrote:

Originally posted by geecee geecee wrote:

Havent had time to even look at the boat this week,
but I may have found another 2001 in great condition (from the photos)
all original even with the horns on the bow, has the pcm ford engine instead of the mercruiser chevy power plant.

hoping to strike a deal next week and see where it goes.

better half is a little concerned about having three boats in the yard however


Hey Geecee

Where in SA are you based??

I have a cracking mechanic who is passionate about the old classics, and doesn't break the bank either.

Cheers

d


Im hiding in Durban so hard to find decent guys here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 6:58am
Okay so the motor is with my new mechanic now.

First issue is the impeller failed, this has to have been a full failure as my temperatures have been fine and the impeller was quite new. virtually no fins left on the impeller.

Now If I had questionable exhaust manifolds do you think this short overheat could have caused cracks to form or the like which would have allowed the ingress of water into the engine.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 7:09am
1983 Ski Nautique '2001'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 7:23am
Originally posted by geecee geecee wrote:


Now If I had questionable exhaust manifolds do you think this short overheat could have caused cracks to form or the like which would have allowed the ingress of water into the engine.

I suggest a pressure test to make sure they didn't crack.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 7:29am
Originally posted by geecee geecee wrote:

First issue is the impeller failed, this has to have been a full failure as my temperatures have been fine and the impeller was quite new. virtually no fins left on the impeller.

The unknown is what came first? Did the impeller cause the overheat or did something else cause the loss of water causing the impeller to fail?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 7:29am
Yes mechanic will pressure test, but to be honest they looked a little shoddy to me when I pulled the heads prior to the failure.

So I'm thinking maybe this added heat caused them to fracture and drown the motor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 7:33am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by geecee geecee wrote:

First issue is the impeller failed, this has to have been a full failure as my temperatures have been fine and the impeller was quite new. virtually no fins left on the impeller.

The unknown is what came first? Did the impeller cause the overheat or did something else cause the loss of water causing the impeller to fail?


I guess so, but as soon as the temp spiked I killed the motor, initially thought it was a loose wire on the temp sensor, after fiddling with the wire I concluded that it wasn't that and that the motor did seem a little warm.

Sat for a bit and randomly heard a loud almost suction/vacuum sound, kinda like hitting the bottom of a milkshake. Tried to start it and it didn't turn over, pulled plugs and water came pouring out,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:55am
What kind of raw water pump do you have? I have heard of the Sherwoods cam tearing up the impeller when they get worn but have never seen one do it. They do recommend changing it on a major rebuild.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-19-2017 at 5:47am
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

What kind of raw water pump do you have? I have heard of the Sherwoods cam tearing up the impeller when they get worn but have never seen one do it. They do recommend changing it on a major rebuild.


Less than a year ago I replaced what was on their with a new Mercruiser pump housing and impeller. The old housing was cracked and impeller pretty shot.

One thing I don't have is a raw water filter/strainer in the boat, considering that maybe I should fit one and that may also help with initial possible run dry when first starting the boat as my boat sits out water a fair amount. Not sure if that will even help
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-20-2017 at 2:41am


Latest from my mechanic

Piston 1,3,5,7 and 8 show damage from overheating, pistons were installed the wrong way and they used clear silicon to assemble instead of proper sealant.

The heads have different casting numbers, so clearly one or both have been replaced previously.

They will be pressure testing everything next and I will get feedback on that when they have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-20-2017 at 3:51am
What I see in your picture of the pistons is a clear case of 4 corner scuff.
Indicated by the black marks on the skirt face next to your piston pins.
A hot burn condition, usually caused by a lean mixture or bad timing setting heats the piston heads. The heat radiates to the Piston Pin boss. When the boss heats up it will cause the piston skirt to grow in the areas surrounding the piston pin boss.   When these areas grow and the engine is still running they start dragging on the cylinder wall.
Notice this dragging caused piston skirt scuffing only at the 4 corners and not in the center of the skirts.   This scuffing is black and silver, the black indicates oil was present when this overheat happened and burned the oil into your skirts.
If this was caused by a engine water temp overheat the pistons would scuff but they would scuff at the center of the skirts not at the 4 corners.
You had excessive combustion temperature which heats the piston head not water temp overheat.
Causes could be Lean Burn, normally caused by running with a vacuum leak or a lousy timing setting causing excessive combustion temp.
If you roll your pistons upside down and look at the bottom of the pistons heads you will see color change from the overheat..   
You will need new pistons, The bore will have to be honed again to remove the scuff marks, if they are severe it may need to be bored to the next oversize.
New Rings and a gasket set should get you running again.
Look closely at the upper halfs of your rod bearings. They may show damage from the pounding. When cylinder temps go this high it normally starts the engine detonating which can beat the crud out of your rod bearings.
Better check the heads to be sure they did not warp or crack. This combustion temp was very hot to have this happen.
If only one piston looked like this we would have another discussion but with them all looking the same it is very clear what happened.
Note: Find what caused this or you may have the exact same issue with the next engine you install.
I am sorry this happened and hope you can fix it for not much money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-20-2017 at 5:13am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

What I see in your picture of the pistons is a clear case of 4 corner scuff.
Indicated by the black marks on the skirt face next to your piston pins.
A hot burn condition, usually caused by a lean mixture or bad timing setting heats the piston heads. The heat radiates to the Piston Pin boss. When the boss heats up it will cause the piston skirt to grow in the areas surrounding the piston pin boss.   When these areas grow and the engine is still running they start dragging on the cylinder wall.
Notice this dragging caused piston skirt scuffing only at the 4 corners and not in the center of the skirts.   This scuffing is black and silver, the black indicates oil was present when this overheat happened and burned the oil into your skirts.
If this was caused by a engine water temp overheat the pistons would scuff but they would scuff at the center of the skirts not at the 4 corners.
You had excessive combustion temperature which heats the piston head not water temp overheat.
Causes could be Lean Burn, normally caused by running with a vacuum leak or a lousy timing setting causing excessive combustion temp.
If you roll your pistons upside down and look at the bottom of the pistons heads you will see color change from the overheat..   
You will need new pistons, The bore will have to be honed again to remove the scuff marks, if they are severe it may need to be bored to the next oversize.
New Rings and a gasket set should get you running again.
Look closely at the upper halfs of your rod bearings. They may show damage from the pounding. When cylinder temps go this high it normally starts the engine detonating which can beat the crud out of your rod bearings.
Better check the heads to be sure they did not warp or crack. This combustion temp was very hot to have this happen.
If only one piston looked like this we would have another discussion but with them all looking the same it is very clear what happened.
Note: Find what caused this or you may have the exact same issue with the next engine you install.
I am sorry this happened and hope you can fix it for not much money.



Thanks for the great insight. We will be checking everything on the engine and do a service on the holley. We definitely do not want issues going forward.

I didn't get into too much detail with my mechanics, but I know they are testing and checking everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geecee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-09-2018 at 8:39am
Need some help again.

Mechanic has gone to 40 thou and there is still scoring in the block. he is reluctant to goto 60 thou citing reasons that it can cause overheating etc in motors that are under a lot of stresS?

Could anyone confirm or is it safe to goto 60 on these old blocks?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baitkiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-09-2018 at 1:06pm
Dont know about .60 but I caught what you said about the pistons being in baccerds. I'm pretty sure they are supposed to be baccereds on a RH engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-09-2018 at 3:42pm
The pistons being in backwards will cause no issues at all. Baitkiller is correct for a reverse rotation application. FYI: Drag racers for years have reversed the pistons in some stock class racing because it makes a little less drag which can help at very high RPM.
Not good for a Pass Car engine but helps above 4,000 RPM.
Boats have a continuous supply of cold cooling water so I would not hesitate to take your block to .060 over if needed.
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