1980 SN stalling when hot / won't restart |
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dentontx87
Newbie Joined: June-27-2017 Location: Denton, Tx Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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I'm having a very similar issue. Starts and runs great when cold, but once it runs for a little while, if I turn it off and try to start it again, it usually won't start and the coil is hot to the touch.
Is the coil getting too many amps causing it to overheat? What would cause that if so? Should I just get the epoxy filled MSD coil? Please help. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Kevin, Amps no but too many volts maybe. The voltage needed by a coil depends on the type. There are some that are internally resisted to drop the volts from the nominal 12 and then others that require external ballast resistors to drop the volts. You need to tell us more like has the ignition system been modified from original. EI conversion in the distributor? Considering your question on amps, do you have a friend that's more familiar with electrics that can help out? Welcome to CCfan. Tell us more about the boat like how you use it. We also love pictures. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Also, some coils don't like horizontal mounting. The oil inside doesn't cover the windings adequately.
What coil do you have? |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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dentontx87
Newbie Joined: June-27-2017 Location: Denton, Tx Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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I believe the ignition is all stock. I purchased another oil filled coil from the local nautique dealer. I can test voltage, how much should it be getting?
My boat, a 1985 SN 2001, will be used for skiing, wakeboard and tubing. I don't know how to attach photos but it's a sharp boat. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Around 9 volts to the coil. Does it have a EI conversion? Some EI's you bypass the resistor.
Posting pictures, use the "post reply" and not the quick found at the bottom of each thread. Click on the icon of the tree with the up arrow. A browse box will come up allowing you to select anything off your computer. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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Pete, Pete, Pete
It's time for you to learn how to post a picture from quick reply You just click on the "full reply editor" (that's the icon to the farthest right that has a diagonal arrow pointing up, then you have all the "full reply" icons and it's the same from there.. I just posted this picture of you in your younger, wilder days using that method to be sure it worked. Nice air by the way |
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beatsmd
Newbie Joined: July-10-2017 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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I've been having the same problem with my 1984 Nautique, and (if I'm remembering right) I never had the problem before installing an electronic ignition a couple years ago. At that time, I installed a new PerTronix 45111 Flame-Thrower II 45,000 Volt 0.6 ohm Coil. It's an oil-filled coil, and it is installed horizontally. Could the fix be as simple as just replacing the coil with a new epoxy-filled coil? If so, which coil should I install? |
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"This skin and bones is a rental"
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cbr1000dude
Senior Member Joined: August-23-2011 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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I had the same symptoms you and other have and chased my tail for a long time before I fixed it. I made the same mistakes you're making, so don't take this as wrong, but your trouble shooting organization sucks. You don't know if it's fuel or spark, still.. Until you know which is the problem, or if it's both, you'll be frustrated.
One thing I learned is this. With today's gas and carbs, it's easy to flood the engine when hot. Someone suggested you open the throttle all the way when it won't start but I don't know if you tried that. I would add that leaving it open for 3 or four minutes with the engine cover open would be better at evaporating the excess fuel if that's the problem. Don't pump the throttle, this only causes the accelerator pump to squirt in more fuel. Turn it over for 5 seconds, and wait, don't move the throttle. Don't want to overheat the starter motor. Try again several times. If it roars to life, it was flooded. If not flooded, perhaps it is starved for fuel. Try putting some into the carb by whatever safe method you prefer. No start? Put the flame arrestor back on. Move on to electrical. Bring an extra spark plug. Disconnect a lead, plug in the extra sparkplug. Hold the threads against bare metal. Have someone turn over the engine. Is there a nice fat spark at regular intervals? If not, it's electrical. I would try going back to points, condenser, and coil wired through a ballast resistor if you have no spark when hot. Sure it's old tech, but with the short hours we actually use boats, they last years.. Give the points a fresh filing to make sure they make contact. At least try this as a test if you prefer. Lastly, if your or other's carbs are flooding when hot, but work great when cold, it could be too much fuel pressure. The floats can barely hold back the fuel at 4-5 psi when cold, add heat,, and they can leak and flood the engine after it's shut off. Today's gas is not as buoyant (I'm sure there is a more accurate term) as it was in 1980. My fuel pressure has been dialed back to 3 psi with a Holley fuel pressure regulator between the fuel pump and carb. Don't get a cheap Chinese one, they are erratic. This provides all the fuel I need for both my 351 and 454, and never floods after a hot stop. I'm not an expert or a trained mechanic, this all all from my personal experience with SNs. I'm just trying to help fellow boaters. |
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 885 |
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Another quick test is float level when running (when warm, if you can get it idle briefly).
Do you trailer your boat? I ask because this is very hard on the float levels. Floats bounce, get knocked out of adjustment. More sensitive on 'slanted' carb position. |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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MW - Just curious how the float bounce would be exacerbated by trailering? Seems to me that my boat takes a lot harder of a bounce riding on choppy water than it does on the trailer. I was thinking that the float bowls would normally be full in either situation, essentially dampening any exaggerated bounce of the floats. Can you help me to understand the logic behind your theory? I am curious if you have had experience with needing to re-adjust your floats and how often you check them? (sorry for the total thread jack to the OP), I am open to a PM or a new thread if you were interested in talking it through. |
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1796 |
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I had this exact symptom on an old Supra with Pertronix. The Pickup failed from being left in the ignition on position. Replaced it and all was well. I'd go back to points and condenser as it's not problematic on something you use as little as a ski boat.
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 885 |
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Ah yes, but when running on the lake, the floats (and float bowls) have a constant and steady supply of fuel to them, don't they.... |
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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true... but when not running, I suspect the only outflow from the bowls would be a bit of slosh, if any at all, as it usually takes vacuum pressure to suck the fuel out of the bowls into the carburetor throat, at least with a properly adjusted float/needle/seat arrangement. Maybe that is why you mentioned that the angled carb is contributing to the issue? Do you adjust your floats regularly?
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 885 |
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Yes, at least annually.
When the boat comes off the lake, the hot fuel will both slosh out the vents and, with a hot motor, evaporate, especially today's fuels. The floats can and do pound out of adjustment. Boat trailers aren't known for an overly-cushy suspension, either. Another item is the float itself. First, they should be brass, not plastic. Over time, even the brass ones can develop pinholes in the brazed seam. The hotter the fuel, the more these will open up, flood the float, and there you are. Test: Get a gram scale and weigh the float. Then immerse in boiling water for a few minutes, remove and re-weigh. (you can't see any leak bubbles in the boiling water, hence the scale). If heavier, replace. |
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5311 |
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Had the same issue with the 88 back in 2008. Didn't realize the coil that I had purchased in 2007 was an oil filled cooler. (I had done the points to Petronix ignition swap over probably in 2005.) Bought a Pertronix Flame Thrower in June of 08 and have never had a problem since. (knock, knock, knock ) I do however keep the original points setup in the boats toolbox in case the Petronix fails. Keep in mind you DO have to use a ballast resister with the above coil. |
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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beatsmd
Newbie Joined: July-10-2017 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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It turns out I was wrong about the Flame Thrower I installed--it is actually an epoxy-filled coil. I can't remember if I removed the ballast resister or not. I'll have to check when I get home from work. If I didn't install the coil with the ballast resister, can I simply correct the installation by rewiring the ballast resister, or do I need to install a new coil (presumably because the old one was damaged by the improper installation)? |
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"This skin and bones is a rental"
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beatsmd
Newbie Joined: July-10-2017 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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I'm a newbie, so I may have misunderstood, but after talking to tech support at Pertronix and reading these instructions, I think you're supposed to remove (or bypass) the ballast resistor when using a Flame Thrower II coil. |
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"This skin and bones is a rental"
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5311 |
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The internal resistance built into the coil is .6 ohms while the ballast resistor used is a 1.5 ohm resistor. Pretty sure I installed a 1.0 resistor.
I've heard here many a time where the Pertronix EI system isn't too reliable but I've had nothing but success with it. I would wire it back in. |
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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0.6 Ohm coil is well over 20 Amps at the coil at 14.5V even given with some internal Ron of the driver in the Pertronix. I understand there is a duty cycle, but that explains how these burn up with the ignition left on and engine off. These units are actually see more through-current and duty-on at low rpms than high.
They claim the Ignit0rII can sink their 0.6 Ohm coil However I have my doubts about its longevity. Sidebar, I think our 20 -40 year old dash wiring (purple wire) is not fit to deliver these currents, as that wire also must power the choke, and alternator energize. Now, If one has the Ingitor , and a 0.6 Ohm coil without external resistance, will cook it in short order, sometimes a season or three. It will sometimes run for a bit, the fall flat. After cooling, work at idle, then fall flat on accel, or some other failure mode. If your Ignitor or IgnitorII has been stressed, then it is always compromised, there is no way to undo the damage made to Silicon by later adding in proper resistance afterward. A new unit and rethink the numbers is in order. Like Tim, my Ignitor has been trouble free, for 20 years myself. But it only saw its first couple years driving a 1 ohm accell coil , and has since triggered high-impedance input to an MSD box, so it sees orders of magnitude less current than it would normally. Pertronix recommends their 0.6Ohm FT2 coil With the Igntor only in a 6V system. If a 6V system runs at 7.25V normally, thats 12.1 Amps continuous. To get equivelant amps in a 12Vssystem running at 14.5V, thats 1.20 Ohms total resistance, suggesting an additional 0.60 Ohms external to use the std Ignitor with reliability.. I attribute Tim's success with his Ignitor to thoughtful selection of an external resistor. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I hear you can get pretty far up that creek with points and get stuck too Tim It seems the newer units have more troubles? Or is it because there are less experienced "mechanics" trying to install them? The neighbor who towed us in used to own several gas station back in the day in New Youk City, he was relating his experiences that he had gone thru up to and including of taking the tow truck and rescuing customers that just had a tune up.
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tjdarland
Newbie Joined: October-04-2012 Location: Carmel, IN Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Hey everyone. I was going to start a new thread this morning on this exact problem, but luckily you are already a few steps ahead of me. I also have a '80 SN experiencing the exact same problem. It starts easily and runs like a champ at high and low RPMs for about 20 minutes, then loses power and can be difficult to restart. It doesn't cough or backfire, just loses RPMs. When it does restart, it runs smoothly at idle but dies as I start to throttle up.
She's got 840 hours on her. Everything is stock on the 351 aside from a new QuickFuel carb installed 2 seasons ago. Points and rotor, plug wires, and plugs are in great shape. My gut tells me it's a fuel restriction/pressure issue. Below is my troubleshooting plan. Any guidance would be appreciated! Before next run: > Check anti-siphon valve. I'm not sure that I have one but will check and, if so, I'll most likely remove it completely. > Check cone screen between tank fitting and & dip tube. > Replace the fuel filter. Might as well, it's easy and only a few $$. Start it up and run it. If the problem reoccurs, then: >Look for signs of flooding--fuel dripping in the carb throat >Check for spark using an extra plug >If no flooding & good spark, pour some gas down the carb and attempt to restart After that... >If flooded: adjust the carb. >If bad spark...I'd be shocked (no pun intended) if it is: I'll cross that bridge if/when I come to it. >If it restarts from gas poured into the carb, but dies shortly thereafter: fuel restriction and/or fuel pressure problem. Thoughts? Thanks in advance for any help! |
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tjd
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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I'm not sure why you'd want to remove your anti siphon valve, since it's a safety feature. Go ahead and remove it and then if you have a fuel line leak between the tank and the fuel pump all that gas in the tank siphons into the bilge till the tank is empty. Nice explosive fuel air mixture just waiting for a spark. You can probably figure out the rest of what happens Just helping you stay out of the burn ward or the morgue so you can finish your troubleshooting |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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TJ
I see no mention of the fuel pump in your plan. It can cause just what you're seeing. Why don't you hook up a temporary tank to the fuel pump inlet and see how it runs. Only takes a few minutes to do and it'll tell you whether your issue is in the tank/ antisiphon valve/suction line or if it's the pump or carburetor. Here'a a picture of a temporary tank hooked up on a Mercruiser in a Malibu. The clear line makes it easy to see if the pump is drawing a suction, then I can sit there and watch gas flow. It's kinda like watching paint dry This was hooked up to the suction filter and made it real easy to determine that the problem was on the gas tank side of things, since it ran just fine on the temporary tank, ruling out the carburetor and fuel pump. Turned out to be a suction strainer issue. Of course if it's an electrical issue it won't tell you much. |
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tjdarland
Newbie Joined: October-04-2012 Location: Carmel, IN Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Hey everyone. Thanks for all the troubleshooting advice. Turns out my gut was wrong--it was the ignition coil. Easy fix and now she's running like a new machine!
tjd |
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tjd
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