Engine surging |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Posted: August-19-2017 at 8:17pm |
So first run at Beaver Lake went well on the way back from picking up my new purchase, then today, my first outing at my home lake, the engine started to surge at idle, in or out of gear: 600 rpm or so on the low end, then would surge to 1200-1500 and back down again. A full up and down cycle taking about 3 seconds or so, the engine would never die. When idling up to about 2000 or a bit above the surge would go away completely, whether in or out of gear. This continued till we came back in a few hours later. At home I put the boat on the hose and confirmed it is still surging. Being EFI (and a Ford base as well as PCM) I don't know know where to start since I've always had GM based Mercruisers.
Any Ideas what this could be? |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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According to the GT 40 trouble shooting chart it could be the IAC- idle air control. I'd google that and see if it can be cleaned or needs replacing.
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fgroce
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2016 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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The throttle position sensor can also cause this kind of surging. You can look in the manual on how to test it is not hard to do with a VOM.
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FGroce
88 Ski Nautique For 28 years Now 2002 Ski Nautique |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Thanks for the replies, I haven't had 5 minutes till now to sit and read some posts let alone respond. I've been going through the boat a little every night since I got it home, first just cleaning and such. I knew there were several little fix-its to do, but after a water line burst in the middle of the lake last weekend almost swamping the boat, I figured more attention to all the mechanics was necessary. It seems the bilge pump itself was working but the discharge line was clogged with a ton of grassy mulch looking junk.
So, getting it back home, one thing led into another and before I knew it the entire dash was apart and the interior back out so I could run all new wiring. Wow, what a mess - looked like a grade school kid had tried to wire patch about every system on the boat. Only 3 of the reset/ power switches worked at all and I lost count of how many bare wire, hand twisted connections with not so much as some tape over them I ran across. Getting it all rewired is going to take a bit of time so I'm not sure when I'll be able to check on the IAC fix to see if it worked or if I'll need a new one. Shooting for this weekend, but with the wiring, new bilge, new blower and cleaning and detailing the engine, it's taking a bit longer than I'd hoped. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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I totally understand your feelings This is a factory wiring job circa 1978. No excuse for work this shabby!! |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Duane,
How many other boat manufacturer dash's have you been under? In CC's defense, they were all that way ! BTW, the scotchlock isn't original! |
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fgroce
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2016 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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Supposed to do that when it is too cold to Ski. Hope you finish soon.
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FGroce
88 Ski Nautique For 28 years Now 2002 Ski Nautique |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Finished all the dash rewiring, though the outside isn't finished yet. I had bought some carbon fiber panels for the dash of my last boat, had quite a bit left over and thought I'd use it to remake the switch panels. Searched the house over and can't find them anywhere so I just re-used the old panel till I can get more ordered.
I've never liked the switch/ reset set-up and these were a mess, only 3 of the bunch even worked. I prefer the Carling type switches anyway, so I've basically gutted the wiring nest in the dash and started from scratch. The boat didn't come with a stereo, guess it had fried years ago and no one ever replaced it so I decided to utilize this area for the new switches and just start with a blank plate, except for the key switch, and cut in my stereo on that side when I decide which brand/ model I'm going with. It's going to be a Bluetooth type with no CD which come in all sorts of configurations, all of which will easily fit on that side. Along with the new wiring and switches I've added a second battery, battery switch and a good ol' fashioned blade fuse panel - I've never had a problem with them, but I have heard of a few folks having issues with the breaker types. Once they start going bad, they aren't just .49 cents to replace. Anyway, the dash went live late tonight and most all worked! Wouldn't you know, I decided to utilize some of the existing wiring within the looms since I couldn't cut it all out - gauge signal wires, etc. still have to get there and unfortunately they seemed to be bundled intermittently with some of the switch wiring. Of course, this was a mistake it seems, using these wires, as all of my own wiring works flawlessly! Too late in the evening to chase down the problem so its going to have to wait till tomorrow. I'll post some pics when I get it all back together, hopefully by the weekend! |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Ok, I did get to the lake today and was hoping that cleaning the IAC would do the trick so I didn't have to fork over the big $ for the new unit. But of course it didn't eliminate the problem. Though I do think it is better now than last week, it was still surging somewhat today. Now I suppose I'll look in to the throttle position sensor, as fgroce has suggested.
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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In the service manual in the reference section, page 2A-23 second paragraph states that if the map sensor/circuit fails the idle RPM will oscillate.
I would maybe start there then if that checks out I would look at the idle speed control bypass air solenoid (ISC-BPA) that's what the computer uses to allow airflow to bypass the throttle plate to allow a constant idle. Read the "theory of operation" it gives a good incite on how the GT-40 works |
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bb12
Senior Member Joined: March-24-2009 Location: Kansas, USA Status: Offline Points: 355 |
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Joseph, noticed you're in Wichita. Nice to see a fellow Wichita CCFan member! I thought I was the only one.
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1989 Ski Nautique 2001
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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So still had issues after cleaning the IAC, though it did seem to help a bit. Then I decided to change oil and spark plugs and found that 6 of the 8 were just slightly more than hand tight. Of the remaining 2, one was very snug, almost too snug, and the other was loose enough I took it out without a wrench.
Hmmm.... Changed the oil, installed new plugs and gave it a try. Imagine that ... no more surging. Well, at least on the trailer. We'll see what it does when I get it to the lake next time. Might be noteworthy also that the plugs that had been installed when I bought the boat were Autolite AP104, which after some research weren't on the approved list of replacements for the original Motorcraft plugs, but that part # was found to be one heat range too hot ! Well, hopefully there wasn't any damage since according to the previous owner they had only been in there for a few hours of light duty operation. I just don't understand some folks. As I read in a post earlier today, we are living in the 21st century - a smart phone google search takes just a few minutes! |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Joseph, Maybe Autozone was out of the correct plugs? |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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It could be too that some more research would tell you a little more info
It seems that the Motorcraft plug would be a AWSF-22 or 22c, but most people on CCF use an Autolite 764 or AP 764. Those are one heat range hotter than the original Motorcraft and they work just fine. Autolite 763 or AP763 are one heat range colder if you want a colder plug like the Motorcraft AWSF-22 or 22c The interesting part is that the AP-104 plugs that you took out are the fully threaded version of the AP-764 plugs. Everything else about them is the same......and they work just fine too. Here's a link to an old thread with some info on the 104/764 link If the plugs solve your problem, it's not because the AP-104's were causing it, except maybe because they were loose and now you have new plugs that are tight like they should be. I've used the 104's for quite a while now with no issues in a GT-40P headed engine. So.....what did you put in it for plugs? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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Yeah, what Ken said on the plugs. 104's are fine... I am running 103's in a 10.3:1 p-headed 331 currently.
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Thanks for the info, it's good to know there won't be any hidden damage from an incorrect plug! I did do a fair amount of research though, even on the Autolite website and couldn't find the info you provided (also searched this site ... guess I wasn't typing in the right question). That is why I like forums like this. There's always someone out there that has a lot more information and experience than yourself and you can nearly always get an answer or a solution to your problem. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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Here's a sorta roundabout way of getting the info from the Autolite website.
Click on the link for 96 Explorer 5.0 spark plugs. link You can see that the 764 is a half thread replaced by the full thread design of the 104 in various different versions like AP 104, APP 104 etc. Some people like the normal 104's others might figure that the more you spend the better the plug or maybe go for better longevity of the plug anyways with the Platinum coated stuff |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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By the way the 764 is a 'suppressor" plug and the 104 is a "resistor" plug
Maybe somebody will come up with an easy to understand explanation of what the real difference is other than spelling and then they can explain why they're interchangeable. All I know is that they're interchangeable. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21107 |
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Quick google search found this here: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/1007696-resistor-and-suppressor-spark-plugs-who-knows-the-difference.html
I believe suppressor plugs do a better job of filtering out high frequency ac noise than resistor plugs... some say that low voltage EI systems are susceptible to the noise. Maybe other boat electronics too? I know the resistor 103's run great in my '71 with points and no stereo though. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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I found that info too, seems a little light on facts from Autolite tech.
Also found the info on suppressor plugs filtering out AC better. My 104's run just fine with electronic ignition. Never could tell the difference between 104 and 764 in how they ran. Edit and my truck radio works just fine with resistor plugs |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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The link is Autolite technical info from 2012 and it doesn't exactly say much of anything about suppressor plugs other than a mention of the word suppression in the shielded plug description and that's not the typical suppressor plug by any means
link |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Ha ha ... 104, 764 -- suppressor, resistor. This is turning out to be one of those Chevy or Ford things. Or more recently (also evidently instigated by me) Acme 422 or Acme 224 LOL
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10641 |
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But, but, but....... in this case we're all agreeing, there's no performance difference
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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UPDATE: ( although it's very late )
Addressing the original topic that I'd started here, I did replace the IAC with a Ford Motorcraft version a couple weeks ago. So much was going on and I had a couple other threads going as well that I had forgot to update on this one. The new module worked like a champ and the surging is completely gone. Thanks again to all for their input. FYI - Though the factory PCM IAC was somewhat rusty, and paint covering the rust I was able to raise the original stamped part # for a cross reference. The Motorcraft part I replaced it with is not merely a compatible module, it is the exact same part number, just purchased from an online auto parts vendor. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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geecee
Senior Member Joined: September-06-2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 206 |
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Just for a bit of info if other people stumble onto this thread with similar issues.
My 83 Nautique surged for a while, didn't have a clue what it could be, video below will show what it was doing. Purely by luck while i was fumbling around the motor I noticed one wire had broken off on the Ignition module. I have the mercruiser, chev 350 with Thunderbolt ignition system. Cleaned that up and soldered it back together and magically my motor stopped surging. |
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1983 Ski Nautique '2001'
-Chev 350 Mercruiser -Custom Wake Tower -Custom Interior |
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