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TWO NEW Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Failures. GRRR

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Lakeben74 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lakeben74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: TWO NEW Carter Mechanical Fuel Pump Failures. GRRR
    Posted: October-01-2017 at 6:49pm
Hey guys- so I'm at my wits end here and need your opinions. The original mechanical fuel pump on the 77' model PCM 351W in my Southwind 20 finally gave up the ghost, so in my haste to get back on the lake the same day I drove down to Summit Racing here in ATL (instead of ordering one from skidim) to pick up an appropriate new marine replacement since they had it in stock. It was a perfect fit, identical to the original pump. All was perfect and she ran like a champ for a week. Then BAM, the diaphragm failed with the classic fuel in the sight tube and she wouldn't idle. Assuming a defective new pump, I pulled it off and returned to Summit for a warranty return/swap. No problem there, got new pump #2 bolted on, and SAME freaking story. Ran perfect for a week and failed again in the same fashion. Factory Carter replacement pump, part # M60389 at Summit.

Is it possible that I've gotten 2 back to back factory defective pumps? Hard to believe since they weren't remans. I only run non-ethanol 90 octane gas from my local Lake Lanier marinas. I noticed on close inspection that a little fuel had permeated the outside edge of the diaphragm from the inside of the pump, so my first thought was "is the gas deteriorating the diaphragms like ethanol?" Hmm. The original 40 year old pump failed by allowing oil to be sucked up the sight tube instead of gas (the 2nd diaphragm).

Stumped, any ideas??? Is this common? I wonder if the Carter replacement from Skidim is a better quality pump? Thanks for any advice!   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 8:02pm
I can tell you what I've had for new Carter mechanical pump experiences this year.

It sounds a lot like your story. 2 new pumps and 2 failed diaphragms within a week to 10 days.

One was a friends Small Block Chevy (M61073) and the other was the same pump you have a M60389.that someone brought to me after it failed

They both showed up in Carter boxes with a label on the end saying Made in Korea.

In both cases the diaphragm material was not the same as the earlier Carter pumps.

Thinner and a shinier neoprene coating that peeled away from the center layer of material like yours did. Lousy bonding of the outer layers

The newer pumps aren't rebuildable either unlike the old ones which were. I'm sure they'd work fine if the diaphragms were better.

With the old ones, you could pull the shaft that the actuating arm rides on and remove the diaphragm and with a rebuild kit you could replace all the wear parts in the pump.

The new ones are made a little differently and if you want to pull the arm and diaphragm out you'll destroy the pump housing in the process.

I think I'm pretty sure that we didn't get the only bad diaphragms they made

Sounds like your original pump was an AC dual diaphragm pump You can still find them for sale. Probably new old stock in some cases, but others are Sierra brand.

Edit I see where you said it was identical to the original pump. Well not quite but close and cheaply built as far as the new one goes..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 8:25pm
Here are a few pictures. The first one is a new Carter pump, You can clearly see the pivot shaft and it's staked in place by a machine and crazy hard to get apart

In the second picture you see the old style, You can't see the shaft, it slides in from the side and by removing a small plug you can remove the shaft and get the diaphragm out and with a rebuild kit you can replace all the wear parts.It's pretty straightforward.

The third picture is an AC dual diaphragm on the left and the Carter on the right

Don't know what Skidim has for Carter pumps but that's how you can tell new from old and for some of us bad from good.





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Lakeben74 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lakeben74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 9:22pm
Well, thats good and bad news then Keno... happy to hear I'm not the only one though! Jeez, these parts coming out of Asia are horrible. Guess I'll give Summit one more shot and then start hunting for an AC or new old stock Carter. I'm gonna call Skidim too tomorrow and see if they are having the same problem with their new Carter pumps.

And my original pump was definitely a Carter- it was identical to the new ones, just painted with the factory Waukesha/PCM engine paint. Looks like your AC was an aftermarket one! And yep- the diaphragm material looked EXACTLY the same as yours when they failed. The neoprene coating was separating and a little gas was starting to ooz out. Not good- maybe the admins need to make this thread a sticky so that everyone else is aware.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 9:35pm
Why not rebuild the original that you took off??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 9:37pm
Well that's not good I just bought one from Summit for a motor that doesn't have a boat yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 9:43pm
The AC was original on my 1976 351 PCM engine The picture is a 76 pump that used to be dark PCM blue. They swapped to the Carter shortly after.

The view of the Carter pump on the Skidim website tells me it's the newer style because of subtle differences in the back of the flange area. I have no idea when that style replaced the older version.

There could be plenty of them out there with no diaphragm problems and maybe they had a bad batch of diaphragms recently.is my guess

I wouldn't call it an epidemic yet based on 2 peoples experiences, but I would say they're not built like they once were
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Why not rebuild the original that you took off??
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Ben,
I certainly agree with Gary. If you do go the rebuild route, when assembling you need to depress the arm so the diaphragm is expanded THEN tighten the screws on the body. When the screws are tightened, the diaphragm will then be pre stretched. If you assemble without pre stretching, every stroke of the cam arm will stretch the diaphragm and severely shorten it's life.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2017 at 10:20pm
Maybe it disappeared in the trash since the new one was working good and the last thing he expected was to have a new one crap out in a week
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2017 at 12:24pm
After looking at my collection of fuel pumps and pieces-parts, it sure looks to me like if the pump had Carter and made in the USA cast into the upper housing, then those are the good old pumps that can come apart and be rebuilt.

Maybe there are some foreign built Carter's that can be rebuilt that were made through the years, who knows

If the number is stamped on the side in ink (maybe it's paint) and it doesn't say Carter anywhere on it,I figure they buy them from a generic supplier and it's the not so good one

Like I mentioned before, I have no idea when they started coming from other countries.

The diaphragm issues must have been from a bad batch of material since this doesn't seem to have been a well known issue but Ben got 2 in a row and I had 2 people show up with bad new pumps too.

One was returned and the replacement is working fine.

The other was torn apart and a combination of new and old parts made for a good pump again. Old housing, old diaphragm, new check valve assemblies and pulsator gasket from the bad new pump did the trick, since the old one had check valve issues and the diaphragm was still good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2017 at 1:30pm
Just looked at mine and as Ken said nothing stamped just the # inked on the side. On the box on the bar code label it says made in Korea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lakeben74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 3:35pm
I'm going to try one more pump from Summit, and if it fails too then I'm getting a refund and trying one from skidim.

And yes Ken, when you answered Pete by saying "he probably threw the original away", I had indeed.   

Also, I just want to give you guys all a HUGE thank you for all of the knowledge you experts take the time to share with all of us other CC guys. You in particular Pete- your past posts, answers, and advice have helped me time and time again in my troubleshooting efforts and in finding the fix while reviving my old Southwind over the last 4 or 5 months!!!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chau8238 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 3:54pm
Well, I believe my Carter pump on my 302 may be bad, so I might be ordering a new one as well. I'll be keeping an eye on your updates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 6:12pm
Hi Chau

Pete or somebody will ask why you don't rebuild the one you have. Just tell him that you have the same shiny new M60389 that's the subject of this thread and they're next to impossible to get apart without destroying things and the original was long gone before you got the boat

You mentioned that in your thread "73 Mustang prop shaft questions" and have pictures of it linked in that thread.

But.............I'll ask, did you try running the boat on a temporary tank hooked direct to the fuel pump like mentioned in the same thread?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Hi Chau

Pete or somebody will ask why you don't rebuild the one you have. Just tell him that you have the same shiny new M60389 that's the subject of this thread and they're next to impossible to get apart without destroying things and the original was long gone before you got the boat

Ken,
Keep in mind that Phillip hasn't mentioned how old his pump is yet. Maybe it's not one of the new versions? BTW, I'm sure you know there are some pumps out there that you need to drill the rivets out of the body for rebuilding but still doable!! .   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 7:10pm
Here's a picture from his previous thread Pete

It's probably the newest thing on the boat along with the fuel line and hose clamps hooked to it

And there's not a rivet to be found in it. If you read back and look at the old vs new pictures in this thread it's the pivot shaft for the cam arm that's staked in very well by a machine that's so tough to get out and then ya gotta get it back in and staked so it won't move.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Here's a picture from his previous thread Pete

It's probably the newest thing on the boat along with the fuel line and hose clamps hooked to it

And there's not a rivet to be found in it. If you read back and look at the old vs new pictures in this thread it's the pivot shaft for the cam arm that's staked in very well by a machine that's so tough to get out and then ya gotta get it back in and staked so it won't move.

Ken,
I'm referring to Phillip's pump and not Bens. The drilling of rivets was just a general comment on pumps that were riveted.
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:


Ken,
Keep in mind that Phillip hasn't mentioned how old his pump is yet.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chau8238 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 7:51pm
Ken, I haven't had the chance to test anything, I've been busy with moving and work. I am hoping to test it out this weekend. If I get time after work this week, I would like to check the line going to the fuel pump and make sure it is pulling fuel without restrictions. I forgot that the previous owner had added a fuel filter/water separator under the rear seat between the tank and the pump. I went ahead and ordered new Marine fuel lines, filter, clamps, and pump (it can be returned if not needed) that should all be here by Friday so this weekend I will be working on my boat and it will be running, I've added a few pics to the folder linked.

https://imgur.com/a/aeqP3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 8:02pm
Turns out it's has already been a year and a half since I bought a new one from skidim. I will check when I see it but it will be a couple of weeks, I never bothered to look at it, and don't even know it it hasn't been superseded since. Might be best to call and ask Vince, I don't think their price is much different than Summit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 8:03pm
Pete

You've obviously lost a few brain cells with age, but I'll be just as bad when I'm your age in a couple of months

Just to get this straight ......Chau's name is Phillip

He has a thread titled 73 Mustang prop shaft questions

That thread has a bunch of pictures in a link he posted

One of those pictures is what I just posted

That picture is the shiny new fuel pump that looks just like Ben's but it's Phillip's

They're both the same part number

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Turns out it's has already been a year and a half since I bought a new one from skidim. I will check when I see it but it will be a couple of weeks, I never bothered to look at it, and don't even know it it hasn't been superseded since. Might be best to call and ask Vince, I don't think their price is much different than Summit.


I really don't think that every new Carter pump is bad, but I think maybe they had a batch with bad diaphragms and the neoprene outer layer is not well bonded to the inner fabric material

Some people get a good one, some get a bad one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2017 at 9:52pm
Mine came in a PCM box,I'll have to look and see if it says where it was made. One thing I don't like is that the vent nipple is plain steel and had flash rust on it when I took it out of the box. Don't know how long it will last in the salt air.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-05-2017 at 8:21am
Ben

He's the original poster Pete, just to avoid confusion

If you're driving back to Summit for another pump, maybe you should ask for an Airtex 60389 mechanical fuel pump and compare it to the Carter M60389.

You'll probably be rubbing your eyes trying to tell what the difference is

One difference that jumps right out is the price, otherwise I'll bet they came from the same factory

airtex link

carter link

After 2 bad Carter pumps, I know which one I'd try

And I'd have an extra 26 bucks in my pocket
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chau8238 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-05-2017 at 11:24am
I bought my Carter from Amazon and the airtex was actually a couple dollars more on there for some reason. The carter is $66 and the airtex is $70. But I plan to inspect it thoroughly if I do need to replace my pump. I should have it in the mail tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2020 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by chau8238 chau8238 wrote:

I bought my Carter from Amazon and the airtex was actually a couple dollars more on there for some reason. The carter is $66 and the airtex is $70. But I plan to inspect it thoroughly if I do need to replace my pump. I should have it in the mail tomorrow.


I'm looking at replacing my fuel pump and would be very interested to hear thoughts on the Airtex compared to the Carter.
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