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Circulation pump leak

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dgabler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgabler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Circulation pump leak
    Posted: May-21-2018 at 2:57am
Was running the boat off of a hose and I noticed that there was a slow drip coming from the bottom of the circulation pump. It seems to be coming from between the pump and gasket. The leak appears to be directly over the crank shaft. ('88 SN PCM 351)

I am guessing that at a minimum I need to replace the gasket. Is it advised that I replace the circulation pump at the same time?

Your advice is appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-21-2018 at 9:17am
When you have the pump off, look at the weep hole on the pump to be sure it wasn't leaking from there and running down to the bottom of the pump before dripping off.

Water coming from the weep hole would tell you the pump seal is leaking, if that's the case then it would be new pump time

If it's just the gasket leaking and the pump spins smoothly and the impeller looks good, then it's a judgement call on your part as far as replacing the pump.

A marine pump is more expensive than an equivalent automotive one because the impeller is more corrosion resistant since it isn't always bathed in antifreeze like in a car.

And the marine pump impeller will be bi directional on the rotation on the ones you get these days where the auto pump isn't necessarily built to go in either direction

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgabler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 2:53am
Thank you for the info. I looked at the weep hole and it was not weeping. I was able to capture some pics of the issue. There is a bit of rust in the area so it seems that this has been happening for some time (I am the third owner).

In looking at the gasket near the top of the pump it appears that there are multiple gaskets installed (A paper gasket as well as a thicker gasket).

If my fears are realized and the block is not flat, what is the procedure for fixing the mating surface so that it will seal? Is my gut that waiting to investigate to layup is safe a reasonable thought (drip is slow <=2 drips/sec while running)?

Setting the scene

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 8:52am
On the backside of the pump you have a metal plate with a gasket between it and the pump and then another gasket between the same plate and the engine.

There's a lot bigger chance of a gasket leaking than of the block not being flat( Edit not the block but the timing cover)

It sounds like you want to run it till the fall and fix it then. Like you said it's probably been leaking for a while so a little while longer probably won't be a big issue although 2 drops/second would be almost a steady stream.

Have you already made sure the mounting bolts are tight?

If you buy a 302/351 water pump/timing cover gasket set, it will have more gaskets than you need, but the right one will be there for mounting the pump. The extras are for different style pumps
It won't include the pump to plate gasket.

I'll post a picture or 2 later
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 9:06am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

I'll post a picture or 2 later


If I know KENO right then if he can't find a pic then he will remove his pump to show you. Just that kind of guy!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 9:22am
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:



If I know KENO right then if he can't find a pic then he will remove his pump to show you. Just that kind of guy!!

Duane,
Correction: Ken will probably put in bearings and a seal first!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 10:05am
Did I beat Ken? Saw this thread ran out and pulled my engine apart. There is a weep hole there,I'd guess a gasket has gone bad where the water enters the block. I'd pull it apart now,won't take that long to do. Not good to leave it dripping.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 10:28am
Its like 93 bucks for a marine circ pump if you have it off I recommend you replace it - it doesn't mount to the block on a ford it mounts to the timing cover. You do not want water to leak from the passages on the sides of the timing cover into the timing cover, that is trouble.   When you have the water pump off start with a wire wheel on a grinder, then if you have serious corrosion and flatness issues move to a file.   You can build it up with jb weld and then file and sand flat it you really need to due to corrosion in areas. Worst case scenario you could get a new timing cover but they can be found from parts horders but they are not particularly cheap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 11:33am
Well, you beat me with a picture Gary, but that's a funny looking water pump

Good picture of the timing cover though, showing where the pump bolts to it.

Here's a picture of the back of the pump showing the cover on the back and 2 bolts that are only accessible when the pump is off of the engine.

Like Gary/Joe mention the weep hole on the front of the timing cover tells you something is leaking, most likely a gasket

You can let it leak, you can take it off and replace gaskets or you can replace the pump, whatever you feel like doing but in a couple of hours you would be done with the job

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgabler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 11:49am
Thank you for the replies. I do agree it is better to do it now. I am just nervous that I am going to snap a bolt when taking off the pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-22-2018 at 1:25pm
Dave, I was nervous when I had to change out one of mine, the boat was a saltwater boat for half of its life and had just again returned to the salt. Came off with no problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dgabler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2018 at 3:46am
Got the pump off no issues. Gaskets though are another story. rather difficult to get off and still more work to be done. It appears that the timing cover has some corrosion on the gasket surface which I imagine was leading to my issues.

Figure I should replace the bolts on the stern side since they are slightly corroded.

Now to find the gaskets for the pump and stainless plate...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-23-2018 at 9:48am
The gasket between the pump and the plate is Fel Pro 35019

The gasket for mounting the pump to the timing cover is Fel Pro 35211

If the parts place wants to know what they fit, just tell them a 67 Mustang with a 289, you don't want to ask for pump parts for a 351 in an automotive application, they won't fit. They have a different water pump than the boat engine pump which comes from the 289 application.

The typical timing cover gasket set will have the gasket for mounting the pump, but not the cover to pump gasket and you'll have a bunch of leftover gaskets. so your best bet is the 2 individual numbers I gave you up above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rakerdeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-24-2018 at 10:02am
What a great forum!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robdubbleu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2019 at 1:49am
I'm about to put a new circulation pump on my rebuilt engine. (It's been slow-going this summer, if you've been following my project)

2 questions regarding the pump. Permatex on both sides of both gaskets?? And the new pump came with 2 small round-headed hex-drive screws... what are they for?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2019 at 8:12am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Well, you beat me with a picture Gary, but that's a funny looking water pump

Good picture of the timing cover though, showing where the pump bolts to it.

Here's a picture of the back of the pump showing the cover on the back and 2 bolts that are only accessible when the pump is off of the engine.

Like Gary/Joe mention the weep hole on the front of the timing cover tells you something is leaking, most likely a gasket

You can let it leak, you can take it off and replace gaskets or you can replace the pump, whatever you feel like doing but in a couple of hours you would be done with the job

.


If you look at this picture from earlier in this thread, you can barely see the 2 bolts you're talking about. They're at the bottom of the pump on the backside holding the SS backing plate to the pump. You put them in before installing the pump on the engine

All the rest of the mounting bolts go through the pump into the timing cover and sandwich the SS plate tightly between the cover and the pump.

There are a handful of different length bolts holding the pump on the timing cover just to make it confusing if like in your case it's been a long time since they were removed

If by Permatex you mean Permatex 2 or maybe Aviation form-a-gasket, either will work fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robdubbleu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2019 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


If you look at this picture from earlier in this thread, you can barely see the 2 bolts you're talking about. They're at the bottom of the pump on the backside holding the SS backing plate to the pump. You put them in before installing the pump on the engine

All the rest of the mounting bolts go through the pump into the timing cover and sandwich the SS plate tightly between the cover and the pump.

There are a handful of different length bolts holding the pump on the timing cover just to make it confusing if like in your case it's been a long time since they were removed

If by Permatex you mean Permatex 2 or maybe Aviation form-a-gasket, either will work fine.


Ah yes I see now, where those 2 bolts go. What should I torque them to?

I have some Permatex Ultra Blue. Would that be a good one to use on the gaskets?

Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robdubbleu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2019 at 12:05am
Or do I need to use any permatex/sealer at all?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2019 at 8:42am
Originally posted by robdubbleu robdubbleu wrote:

Or do I need to use any permatex/sealer at all?


I'd use something like what was mentioned earlier, Permatex 2 or Permatex 3 .

The P2 is thicker and comes in a tube, the P3 comes in a can with a brush on applicator. and is pretty runny. A finger works good to spread the P2

Plenty of equivalent type alternatives from other companies

For me, it's "when in doubt, the Permatex 2 comes out"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 6:56pm
If your corroded areas do not clean up or look like they will leave a leak path, clean the area well, if the corroded area is deep you might wish to use JB Weld, the regular 24 hour cure version to build up the corroded area. If the corrosion is minor the Permatex #2 has been fixing issues like this for many years.
If you are forced to use JB weld you will need to file and sand it down to smooth with the original surface being careful not to sand it low causing a new leak.
The JB will run when applied. You can make a dam out of painters tape to hold the JB where you need it.
Another option to fix some of the corroded areas is " The Right Stuff" it is like super silicone and rubber enhanced. It is expensive, about $20 tube but helps when you have hard to seal surfaces or don't have the right gasket. Nice product, easy to use, just expensive compared to other options. It can seal coolant or oil much faster than resorting to JB Weld.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-23-2019 at 8:21pm
I'm not sure he has any corroded areas, it's a new pump and a freshly rebuilt engine from a local machine shop if I remember right.

Any pictures in this thread with corroded areas aren't Rob's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-24-2019 at 1:41am
In the photo by gabler above it looks a little iffy around the water pump mounting bolts.
Could be a bad picture but does not look good to me. Maybe some of the old gasket is still on there affecting the picture.
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