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GT 40 will not start after Fuel Line repair

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    Posted: March-01-2020 at 10:15pm
I have a 95 SN 196 with the GT 40. The boat was running well, but I noticed I had a fuel leak at the L joint coming out of the low pressure Fuel Pump. I disassembled the connection, cleaned it, and reassembled with fresh sealant. Now the engine will not start. I can hear the low pressure pump running when I turn the ignition on and have tried to "prime it" by clicking the ignition on and off several times. All I get is a few cylinder fires and then nothing.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Mike
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Gary S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-01-2020 at 11:45pm
Not being a jerk but did you reconnect all the wires you disconnected? Charge your battery back up and go to this link to see how to jump your fuel pumps long enough to make sure the fuel is through the system . You should hear all pumps running and maybe even fuel being dumped back into the tank. Try that and let us know what happens
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigmeade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-02-2020 at 10:33pm
Gary,

OK, I jumped the fuel pumps as noted in the picture in the link, and that part worked as advertised. I let the pumps run on and off for up to five minutes but did not hear any fuel moving. BTW, I can hear "pumps" running but not sure if it is one or both. anyhow even with that much priming I got the same result...a brief engine firing then nothing.

Really stumped because prior to the fuel line work the engine ran normal and well.

I did not disconnect any wires in this process.

Any other advice?

Thanks!
Mike
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Gary S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-02-2020 at 11:11pm
Did you remove the LP pump to do all this work? Did you possibly install it backwards ie tank feeding to the out on the pump rather than the in? Being very careful you could disconnect the hose from the HP pump and putting it into a container see if it is actually pumping fuel when you turn the key on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigmeade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 12:30am
I did not remove the feed hose from the tank when I did the work. Will check out and see if I am getting fuel there.

In another post I read some about getting fuel in the Fuel Control Cell. What is that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 1:04am
You should not have an FCC unless a PO put one on. So your saying you did not remove the pump when you did this work?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 1:46am
Maybe too much thread sealer plugging the exit port?
I agree with Gary, remove the exit fuel line from the LPP and test it into a 1 gallon bucket.
In about 15 seconds the 1 gallon bucket should be 1/4 full. The Carter Marine Pump P4389 is rated at 72 gallons per hour. That is about 1.2 gallons per minute.
If it is pumping and fills the bucket as mentioned your problem is upstream at the HPP or your line to the HPP is plugged or the return line is plugged.
You do not want to keep testing the pumps if they are running with no fuel. These are fuel lubricated. No fuel = no lubrication and they damage the internal bushings running dry in about 10-20 seconds. Then they run for a while but get noisier and noisier until they lock up. These are great pumps and dependable but don't run them dry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 7:42am
It might just be easier and less messy and pretty informative to check the fuel pressure with a Fuel injection test gauge screwed onto the test fitting on the fuel rail.

If you don't have a test kit, you could borrow one from your favorite auto parts store and check that you have about 39 psi when the pumps are running.

You'll only get that number with both the HP and LP pumps running.

You can check it with the test jumper installed then if that reads about 39 psi, restore things to normal and check it with the key in the ON position and the engine OFF and see what you get for a reading.

If it's low, then you can start figuring out if one pump is bad or you have a restriction somewhere

Like Gary said but didn't really explain, your 95 was the first year of production and didn't have a Fuel Control Cell. It came in 96 to resolve some vapor lock type issues and could be retrofitted.

Do you have the PCM manual for the GT40 engine?

If you don't, then click the link below and you'll have one . It's 311 pages of thoroughly entertaining or maybe terrifying reading   

link

Does the engine start "normally" or is it struggling to start? Your other post made it sound like it starts then quits.

What happens if when the engine starts, you continue to hold the key in the START position? Will the engine stay running till you let the key go back to the RUN position or does it still quit after a second or so?

There are other things to check but the answers to these questions will be helpful before throwing anything else out there to confuse you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 7:58am
Here's a link to a Harbor Freight test kit if you have one nearby

link

You can spend more but this should work for you.

You can spend less on Amazon, Ebay etc too it's good to have one at times like this
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigmeade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 10:45am
Thread sealer: I was careful to be sparing in application so I don’t think that getting in the fuel line is the issue, at least I hope not.
The pattern for starting is like this:
First crank gets me a full firing that sounds like the engine is going to start right up, then it goes dead.
Additional cranks yields a background sputtering sound but not a good firing. If I wait a couple hours, I can repeat the pattern exactly.
Service manual: the previous owner gave me a full printed version. You are right, I have been a little scared to open it but i may soon do so.
One other note. The “fuel line” between the LPP and the HPP is a hard line, consisting of an L joint out of the LPP connecting to a hard line with 2 couplers, then a threaded flange into the HPP. I am wondering if this is stock? The reason I ask is I think this set up is what gave me the trouble in the first place. The dimensional tolerances to get the LPP secured to its bracket are troublesome because of the hard line connection, and once I got it out back together I can’t help but think that engine vibration will again lead to a leak again in the future. Seems like a steel flex hose would be better? Or it sounds like the fuel pressures are low enough to change the flanges and install a rubber fuel hose. I am ruminating on this because it was a pain to reinstall the hard line connection and if I have to break it again to diagnose the problem, I might as well address this issue also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 11:31am
Make sure your kill switch lanyard is properly in place. Maybe you tripped over it with all the fumbling around you’ve been doing. Pull it all the way out and reconnect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 1:04pm
Kev has a very good point. I wasn't paying complete attention that you in fact have a 95,your correct that there is no hose between pumps- rather there just AN type fittings. I did find a picture of mine which should be the same as what you have.



If Kevin's fix does not work the next step would be to test fuel pressure, like Ken has mentioned that way you will know more than just guessing - I have one of these-like this one purchased locally. You might be able to get a loaner or rent one as well from your local autoparts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2020 at 2:23pm
I think Ken is dead on with testing Fuel Pressure.   That will rule out all pump issues and is a painless test unlike what I advised earlier.

I recently repaired a Jeep that responded like your engine.   Would try to start on cold start but not fire up. It sounded like it was going to fire on the first try but never did.
If I kept trying it would stop trying to start at all.   Even with starting fluid sprayed into the intake it would not try to fire. (you could spray a mist of fuel into your throttle body and see if your engine starts)
I checked spark, put #1 wire on a test spark plug, turned engine over briefly, had good blue spark.
I tested fuel pressure, it had 48 PSI at every test.
Did a compression check, 140 on all cylinders.
Checked Cam sensor, tested good
Checked Crankshaft sensor, tested good?

What the problem ended up being was the Coil, after testing everything I went back to the starting point.   I had tested spark and it was good so I ruled out spark.   This time I tested spark longer, kept it cranking for about 20 seconds.   Guess what, good spark for about 3 revolutions and then no spark?
Tested Coil wires, 12V constant was good even when cranking.   Tested Negative lead on the coil, negative is controlled by the computer on this car and the negative wire grounds only when a spark is needed. It grounded several times each revolution as the engine spun over.   Coil ground is good.
Pulled the Coil and tested it.   Coil was BAD.   It gave good spark for only a cold start and only for a couple revolutions then goes dead till the next cold start.
Plugged in a new $35 Coil and the thing fired up like brand new.

The odds of your coil going bad while your boat is parked and you are working on the fuel system is near zero but your description sure reminded me of this coil issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote craigmeade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-15-2020 at 5:46pm
Gary,

In the end you were the winner. Eventually I looked closed and discovered that I accidently pulled the HP Pump connection loose while fiddling with the wires. Thanks for not being a jerk!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-15-2020 at 6:10pm
Glad to hear you figured it out Can be frustrating that's for sure. Keep an eye out on that plug I'm wondering if the locking tab to keep that plug from coming apart is broken? I have a '98 ish GT40 that I'm putting together- I'm finding that many of the plastic plugs on various parts are getting brittle and breaking off. I've been replacing them as needed. If you look very close they have part numbers on them for the most part and can be found on the web. So far I've replaced the coil connector.the connector on the HP pumps canister and the LP pump connector.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-15-2020 at 8:08pm
I'll start out by saying .........Don't take this the wrong way, but if you put a pressure gauge on it back when it was suggested by a few people on 3/3, you would have figured out that one pump wasn't running and most likely solved this problem back then instead of eventually

And finish by saying like Gary did, glad you figured it out

And also, get yourself a fuel pressure gauge/kit, it comes in awful handy on your gt40 or any other fuel injected engine.
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