Forums
NautiqueParts.comNautiqueSkins.com - Correct Craft Upholstery and Part
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Busted Block
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Busted Block

 Post Reply Post Reply Page    <12
Author
gravyleg pirate View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: August-01-2012
Location: Lawrence, KS
Status: Offline
Points: 61
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gravyleg pirate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-04-2020 at 4:14pm
Good info, thanks MrMcD! So really am i better to stick with a boat shop then as they'll know what can be swapped over? Or can any engine shop do it since these engines are all so similar?

Was thinking about my options locally and who has been recommended so far.
GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane"

2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years)
2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...)
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3572
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 3:43am
I do know from this forum that the Ford EFI engines do not allow any upgrades without causing tuning issues.   The GM Throttle body design, I don't know in Marine Applications but I suspect it may not be so restrictive as the Ford unit.   
In Automotive applications, GM Trucks with the Throttle body injection I was involved with a few hundred that converted from 350 or 305 to 383 engines.   We also has some Mild cam changes and the Throttle body always adjusted just fine.
Some chose large camshafts and for those we had to bring in a friend who was a GM trained tuner and he could fix them.   For a Stock Camshaft I suspect the throttle body would work fine with an upgrade to a 350 but my thoughts are not any type guarantee.   You should poll the forum to see if others have done this upgrade.   I suspect you will find many more users of the 305 engine in other Forums, Bayliner, Sea-swirl and many Outdrive boats ran the Mercury Marine 305 as a base engine.   I did have a friend switch his 305 in a bayliner to a 383 and that thing was scary fast but he has moved and I lost touch, I don't know what mods he did if any to make it run with the larger engine. Check first before abandoning the idea of using a 350. It may be a simple program change or it may be impossible, please share what you learn.
You also have the option of switching back to a carburetor, a good carburetor still works pretty well and allows you to use any engine you choose.
Mark
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10584
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:48am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

I do know from this forum that the Ford EFI engines do not allow any upgrades without causing tuning issues.   The GM Throttle body design, I don't know in Marine Applications but I suspect it may not be so restrictive as the Ford unit.   
In Automotive applications, GM Trucks with the Throttle body injection I was involved with a few hundred that converted from 350 or 305 to 383 engines.   We also has some Mild cam changes and the Throttle body always adjusted just fine.
Some chose large camshafts and for those we had to bring in a friend who was a GM trained tuner and he could fix them.   For a Stock Camshaft I suspect the throttle body would work fine with an upgrade to a 350 but my thoughts are not any type guarantee.   You should poll the forum to see if others have done this upgrade.   I suspect you will find many more users of the 305 engine in other Forums, Bayliner, Sea-swirl and many Outdrive boats ran the Mercury Marine 305 as a base engine.   I did have a friend switch his 305 in a bayliner to a 383 and that thing was scary fast but he has moved and I lost touch, I don't know what mods he did if any to make it run with the larger engine. Check first before abandoning the idea of using a 350. It may be a simple program change or it may be impossible, please share what you learn.
You also have the option of switching back to a carburetor, a good carburetor still works pretty well and allows you to use any engine you choose.
Mark


So.........let's think about something here

Do the automotive applications have O2 sensors and therefore have the ability to run in closed loop and compensate for changing conditions?

Does a model year 2000 PCM Chevy marine engine have an O2 sensor and have that same ability to compensate?

How much does he want to spend on new or reprogrammed ECM's because of this ?
Back to Top
1TAZZ View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: February-14-2009
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1TAZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 11:29am
I have installed 350 vortec engines in Silverado trucks that came with the 305 and as long as you use the stock vortec 350 camshaft we never had any tuning problems . If you are working with a budget going to a carb will most likely add $1000 dollars to you repair if you think about a new carb intake fuel pump wiring changes etc it would add up quick at a dealership charging you $ 90 to 125 labor an hour . You would never get those cost back should you ever sell your boat plus most people would want the EFI should you sell the boat. I would like to hear what the dealer quote is . If your motor has low hours a block swap could be done using all parts from your motor on a different block. If money is no problem a new 350 is your best bet . If your where in NC I would stich - lock your motor and not even remove to motor from the boat.
Lake Wylie NC
Back to Top
TRBenj View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: June-29-2005
Location: NWCT
Status: Offline
Points: 21091
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 11:43am
Big difference between closed loop automotive and open loop marine EFI systems, especially with the latter having a locked down tune. It’s not a ford vs chevy thing, it’s a proprietary PCM thing.
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 11:46am
Originally posted by 1TAZZ 1TAZZ wrote:

I have installed 350 vortec engines in Silverado trucks

Joe,
Any marine engine experience? PCM?


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
1TAZZ View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: February-14-2009
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1TAZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:12pm
This is not about me . I hope you get your boat up and running soon so you and your family can enjoy it this summer !
Lake Wylie NC
Back to Top
63 Skier View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: October-06-2006
Location: Concord, NH
Status: Offline
Points: 4223
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:36pm
Reading all this, would this be a fair summary?

Easiest, lowest cost fix - replace the 305 block with same, use all your parts, hit the water. No additional power.

Higher power fix - replace with a carbed 350. You lose efi but gain power without breaking the bank.

Utopia fix - replace with crate engine complete. Very expensive, all the power your choose to spend on.
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10584
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by 1TAZZ 1TAZZ wrote:

This is not about me . I hope you get your boat up and running soon so you and your family can enjoy it this summer !


Oh come on now Tazz, you've been around long enough to know that Pete's an expert on everything and doubts anybody else.s abilities to do anything

PS I have an engine that's been fixed with that method, but the crack went up into the deck area so there was some disassembly and machining required.

That boat's been fine for a number of years.
Back to Top
Riley View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-19-2004
Location: Portland, ME
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Riley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:46pm
PCM ought to be able to tell you if you can swap out a 305 for a 350, and what will be involved with the efi, if anything. 5.7's don't cost much more than a 305 and are a better engine. Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be an easy swap.
Back to Top
63 Skier View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: October-06-2006
Location: Concord, NH
Status: Offline
Points: 4223
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 12:47pm
Serious question for Tazz and others. Say you try the stitch, it works for a bit, then starts weeping or even a small steady stream. Would that matter? I'm not saying leave it that way forever, but if the block is leaking warm water at a rate of a gallon an hour, what harm would that do? Just curious.
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
Back to Top
TRBenj View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: June-29-2005
Location: NWCT
Status: Offline
Points: 21091
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 1:27pm
I’d be inclined to drain the water from the block, grind a groove in the crack and fill it with jb weld. Have seen some lousy external repairs hold surprisingly well. If the leaks are internal, the block is toast. I wouldn’t spend a dime on pulling the engine and trying to stitch a 305 block together.

Also good luck trying to get specific 350 vs 305 efi tune info from pcm on a 20 year old engine. Maybe worth asking but don’t expect much of an answer.

If it were me, I’d drop a Vortec longblock in there and maybe give the efi system a chance- being super vigilant about looking for signs it’s running lean. If it can’t be easily addressed, I’d carb swap it.

Or look into bobtail options, would expect them to be in the $10k range with labor.
Back to Top
8122pbrainard View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: September-14-2006
Location: Three Lakes Wi.
Status: Offline
Points: 41040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by 1TAZZ 1TAZZ wrote:

This is not about me .

Joe,
No, it not about you but rather advice needed on an engine and everyone's opinion is valued. It's the reason I asked about your experience with marine PCM's due to the discrepancy regarding tunes. Ken seems to think I know everything but if that was the case, I be answering the EFI tune issue. (Ken evidently hasn't noticed that it's very rare that I comment/answer questions regarding modern engines) So, do you have any input regarding the tune?


54 Atom


77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10584
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by 63 Skier 63 Skier wrote:

Serious question for Tazz and others. Say you try the stitch, it works for a bit, then starts weeping or even a small steady stream. Would that matter? I'm not saying leave it that way forever, but if the block is leaking warm water at a rate of a gallon an hour, what harm would that do? Just curious.


It wouldn't matter to me.

That's what JB weld or Marinetex or __________________ fill in the blank with your favorite epoxy is for.

As far as TRB's JB weld fix............now we're getting into my territory, a good ol' backyard hack job   Count me in

Kinda hard to see in the original pictures if it's just a crack or if the water jacket is pushed outwards on both sides and needs to be pounded back to shape first( and maybe break in the process)

GLP Post better pictures
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10584
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by 1TAZZ 1TAZZ wrote:

This is not about me .

Joe,
No, it not about you but rather advice needed on an engine and everyone's opinion is valued. It's the reason I asked about your experience with marine PCM's due to the discrepancy regarding tunes. Ken seems to think I know everything but if that was the case, I be answering the EFI tune issue. (Ken evidently hasn't noticed that it's very rare that I comment/answer questions regarding modern engines) So, do you have any input regarding the tune?


Ken knows you don't know everything Pete



Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10584
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 2:25pm
GLP

Click on the link below for a little reading on an epoxy patch here on CCF   

link   
Back to Top
gun-driver View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: July-18-2008
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Status: Offline
Points: 4112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:21pm
Just throw a Cummins in it that would pull the in-laws out of the water
Back to Top
gun-driver View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: July-18-2008
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Status: Offline
Points: 4112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:28pm
Back to Top
1TAZZ View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: February-14-2009
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1TAZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-05-2020 at 8:43pm
I have used J-B WELD on some dirt track cars the key is to do the best prep work you can for it to have a good shot to hold . Clean with a good wire brush and some cab cleaner make sure it is clean and dry also make sure you mix it good and give it a day to setup . I would go for it . It could save your summer boating season you really have nothing to lose at this point. Then you will have a winter project.   
Lake Wylie NC
Back to Top
gravyleg pirate View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: August-01-2012
Location: Lawrence, KS
Status: Offline
Points: 61
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gravyleg pirate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2020 at 12:38pm
I like the idea of a used engine. How would the transmission work? Do I have to worry about it linking up appropriately since I have the direct drive? Or are they universal?
GLP
"If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane"

2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years)
2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...)
Back to Top
KENO View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: June-06-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10584
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2020 at 9:31pm
Just like mentioned earlier about the long block, if it's the same era engine all the parts including the transmission will bolt up.

You should get block and head numbers from the engine to compare to if you're thinking about that route. It can be a little complicated making sure you're getting the same/equivalent parts.

If it's a car engine it'll probably be at least 20 years old with a lot of miles/wear and tear so you might want to rethink that or be ready to rebuild it/get it rebuilt
Back to Top
63 Skier View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: October-06-2006
Location: Concord, NH
Status: Offline
Points: 4223
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2020 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Or look into bobtail options, would expect them to be in the $10k range with labor.


Tim, what is the most likely bobtail for easy fit and match for the boat? Just curious.
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
Back to Top
GottaSki View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah


Joined: April-21-2005
Location: NE CT
Status: Offline
Points: 3325
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-06-2020 at 11:24pm
speaking against repairs, I believe the chances of that split being the only issue with the engine as slim to none. even if your were just plugging the dyke, now the cyllinder walls are the only thing holding it together on that bank. it has a bullet in its head, call it and yeah, explore replacement longblock options.
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

River Rat to Mole
Back to Top
MrMcD View Drop Down
Grand Poobah
Grand Poobah
Avatar

Joined: January-28-2014
Location: Folsom, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3572
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-07-2020 at 5:20am
I don't remember how good this engine was before the freeze wrecked it.   If it was a good running engine a Short Block would save some money. Buy a Head Set for gaskets and install your old heads and other parts.   Just another Idea to get you up and running.
Rebuilt Short blocks are not a lot of money and lucky for you pretty easy to come by.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page    <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Copyright 2024 | Bagley Productions, LLC