Transmission Problems and Probable DIY Overhaul
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19059
Printed Date: May-03-2024 at 1:26am
Topic: Transmission Problems and Probable DIY Overhaul
Posted By: skfitz
Subject: Transmission Problems and Probable DIY Overhaul
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 12:33am
|
1975 SN, 351W, Velvet Drive 71C Transmission
One day last week at the end of a few hours on the water, forward started slipping. Drove the boat about 10 minutes to the lift, and on arrival there was no forward remaining. It might have had some reverse, but I didn't do any experiments. I checked the level and there was very little transmission fluid -- in the tranny, that is. There was a considerable amount in the bilge. Today I went to see if I could find the leak. I wiped the transmission clean and re-filled it with fluid. Then I slowly putted around while re-gapping the points and re-timing the ignition. The tranny shifted as it always has; smooth, albeit a little noisy. Total of maybe 5 minutes in gear. When I checked for leaks, I could tell the fluid was coming from the front of the transmission near the bellhousing. The front bottom part of the transmission had fresh fluid on it (I had wiped everything down beforehand). Not a whole lot, but enough that it was clear where it was coming from. I'm considering three options: replace the front seal and pump gasket and run it until gas hits $100/gallon, replace the front seal & gasket but overhaul the transmission at the end of the summer (November around here), or rebuild now. Since I have to pull the transmission with any of those options, I'm leaning towards rebuilding it now. So I have decent wrench skills, but I've never overhauled a transmission. I have Borg Warner VD manual and overhaul looks like a fairly simple affair. My plan is to install a rebuild kit (gaskets, seals & O-rings, and clutch plates) and perhaps replace the annular bearing at the rear, and whatever else I find in there. New damper too. Anyone have any life-lessons, tricks or tips, or BTDT they want to share? Pics would be great. Especially of how to use the bottle jacks to lift the engine a little without puncturing the fiberglass floor . . . Any help or advice would be appreciated. |
Replies:
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 11:04am
In that case, I wouldnt even consider doing the rebuild yourself. The 2 options I would consider would be to: A) Pull the trans now and send it to Eric for a rebuild. B) Keep the fluid topped off and try to hobble through the rest of the season, then pull it over the winter and send it to Eric for a rebuild. It sounds like your front seal is toast. Thats an easy fix by itself, but dont expect that alone to solve your issues... theres a reason the seal blew. Hows the alignment on the boat? ------------- |
skfitz wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 11:23am
|
Shawn,
I happen to agree with Tim here especially the reason for it blowing the front seal. Others have been through this before and found out the hard way that just sticking rebuild parts in it doesn't cure the problem. The seal will blow again. Eric knows how to handle internal clearances that are most likely out of spec. The V/D manual doesn't get into that. Send it off to Eric! The bottle jacks under the exhaust manifolds will not punch holes in your floor. They will sit on top of your main stringers. Besides, you'll find that there really isn't much weight on them. The front engine mounts carry a good percentage of the load. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 5:29pm
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Thanks Tim and Pete. Good to know jacks on the stringers won't harm them. Makes perfect sense though.
I suspect the seal failed because of input shaft wear. That, and because it's 35 years old. (The boat sank June 9 in a flood at my lake; I changed the tranny fluid twice because of the flood and both times the old oil looked pristine) BUT, I have had to top off the fluid from time to time even before the sinking, and there was evidence of small amounts of ATF fluid in the bilge. If shaft wear is what I find when I open it I'll sleeve it, but I won't know until I get in there. I don't know about my prop shaft alignment. In the time I've owned the boat, I haven't disconnected the shaft from the coupling because the prop shaft spins freely and I don't have any noticeable vibration. The rear seal does not seem to be a problem at this time anyway. Nonetheless, the shaft/transmission coupling will be aligned properly on re-installation. Eric may ultimately get this transmission, but not before I take a crack at it. And perhaps not until the next owner finds the boat in the field where I abandon it if I fail. I kid, I kid. I'm quite aware of FF's expertise and reputation, and I can assure you that we'll do some commerce if my little experiment doesn't work out and if he'll accept the remains. |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 5:37pm
| So . . . has anyone experienced this who wants to share some tips or maybe some of the pitfalls Tim mentioned? |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 6:23pm
I rebuilt mine on my workbench about 8 years ago (before Eric was the expert around here, and back in the Nautiquefan.com days). I purchased the parts from Discount Inboard Marine (Skidim). Took out the tranny, disassembled, re-assembled with the help of some advice from Vince at Skidim. I don't remember many details, but, and this is important; I didn't get the clearance quite right on the forward clutch pack, so in neutral, it's still turning the prop....very slowly, but enough to be moving forward in neutral. Having an arbor press would have been useful. I've been running it that way ever since. I know how to deal with it and otherwise, it runs beautifully. If you're mechanically inclined, and it sounds like you are, I'd go for it! ------------- "...gotta keep rockin' while I still can..." |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 6:32pm
|
I redid my '82 without issue. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. But if i had to do another i'd just mail it to eric. He can save parts that we would have to throw away, and he can identify parts ready to fail that we can't. Don't let pride get in the way of a good decision. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 8:15pm
| You guys are making a strong case. I'm listening. |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 8:33pm
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Once you figure out the cost of parts you will find that Eric is a good deal.
Tim ------------- |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-16-2010 at 9:32pm
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Eric can sleeve the input shaft if required to get it to seal plus a host of other things, identify a worn pump, mod the reverse piston so it doesn't bang reverse, plus a bunch of stuff we've forgotten. You won't throw parts at it you don't need and get you a new sachs damper. I feel its your best bet not to touch it again for 15-20 years. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-17-2010 at 10:24am
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ha, you guys kill me but thanks....
but i have a guy that stops in all the time and barrages me with questions...I seriously tell him "you get 3 questions" and he will say what do you mean? i will tell him "you just used up one of your questions..like I said last week a kid called me 12 times on his tranny but he got thru it...and it works, i teared up ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-17-2010 at 10:29am
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that brings me up to the old codger that stops in all the time, 60k boat and to FCN cheap to bring it in but his questions are plentiful, man do i send him off into a different direction, im a nice fcn guy and will be the one to help the old lady up when she falls when everyone else stands there and watches...but this guy irratates the fck out of me lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 6strings
Date Posted: August-17-2010 at 12:37pm
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skftz, even though I rebuilt my own with decent results, when it comes time to do a major job on my boat (which won't be long), I'll be sending my tranny to Eric. When I put it all back together, I want to make sure it's perfect this time. ------------- "...gotta keep rockin' while I still can..." |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-17-2010 at 12:49pm
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the biggest thing with these transmissions is I frown on selling parts because of the fact that guys will say hey im replacing the clutch plates because they are worn out, my reply is unlike a clutch in a car and even brake pads on a car, they wear because they are designed to do so and fluid compensates or a clutch adjustment for the wear, Truly in a transmission with wet clutches they are designed not to wear thus you then have to change your mindset and figure out why they are slipping causing wear and eventually locking in forward. basically i have pulled 25 year old transmissions apart and have found the writing or part numbers still on the clutch faces.
so when attacking these transmissions you have to back up the clock and ponder the reason of failure. it may have been a low oil situation causing the clutches to slip, pumps loosing clearance, hitting something, pulling into neutral on power up and many other reasons. but this is the biggest culprit of why some may not get it right the first time and end up buying parts twice ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: August-22-2010 at 12:41am
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I called Eric last week and discussed my situation. He's going to get the tranny.
I removed it from the boat this afternoon. First I removed the shaft at the flange. Then I supported the rear of the engine on jacks and unbolted the rear mounts from the bracket on the stringers. Then I separated the bellhousing from the engine. Then I slid the tranny back with a little prying and lifted it out of the boat. Then I put blocks under the engine for when the jacks sag. After that I brought the whole thing to town where I separated the bellhousing from the tranny. As soon as I find an 11/16 box-end (really, wtf is the deal with so many different sized hex-heads on this thing? Gimme a Toyota where 10s, 12s and 14s are 95% of the hex heads any day . . .), I'll have the mounts off and will be able to put it the hands of the fed-ex man. Here are some questions: 1. Should I mount the bellhousing to the engine before I re-mount the tranny? 2. Does this look like a normal configuration for a rear mount? (photo shot across top of tranny from starboard to port -- that's the shift lever in the lower left of the pic) Seems like the actual "mount" wouldn't be absorbing much shock/vibration. Also note that I was half-way through removing the mount when the photo was shot (see comment re 11/16 nut . . .) 
3. Can someone point me to a link (with photos preferably) to a shaft alignment thread where this type of mount is shown or discussed? Thanks in advance! --Shawn |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: August-24-2010 at 3:45pm
| Call me when you get it, Eric. :-) |
Posted By: Topher170
Date Posted: August-25-2010 at 5:15pm
|
I have a question that I thought one of you guys might could help me with. i tried to search for an answer, but I couldn't find one.
Anyway, I just bought a 80 ski tique with a trashed engine. I have a brand new engine ready to drop in, but the transmission doesn't want to slide off of the old engine. I removed the engine and trans from the boat in one piece and removed the bolts from the bell housing. The trans slid out about a 1/4 of an inch and won't go any further. I didn't want to break anything, so I figured I'd ask someone before I started snatching on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to get it on the water by the weekend. ------------- To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-25-2010 at 5:21pm
|
Christopher,
The splined trans input shaft is rusted into the splined bore of the dampner plate on the flywheel. Try to pry it open enough to squirt some Kroil or a 50/50 mix of ATF and mineral spirits on it. If you damage the dampner it's no big deal as I highly recommend you putting a new one on it anyway. Is the new engine the proper rotation? Welcome to CCfan. We demand pictures!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: August-25-2010 at 5:56pm
first thing that came to me when he sais engine replaced..  ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Topher170
Date Posted: August-25-2010 at 5:59pm
|
Thanks for the help. It's always great to find a community of people with the same interests. I've always been able to find someone on a forum that has been there and done that. It sure is awesome learning from other peoples mistakes and experiences and not having to make costly mistakes on my own.
It is the proper rotation. I was going to buy a new car engine and just swap everything out, but before I ordered one I found out that I could just get a reverse drive marine engine for a few hundred dollars more. The car engines warranty would have been out the window the second I swapped out the cam and seals, this one has a three year warranty. I'll get some pics when possible. The original graphics were removed and it has some large vinyl decals on the sides, so it doesn't look as good as it could. Once I get it going, I'm going to have a friend make some vinyl that matches the original paint scheme. Actually this is the boat: http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1980-Correct-Craft-Ski-Tique-97228638 The owner told me he would have it ready to take to the lake when I came to pick it up, so he went to crank it and make sure the battery and everything was charged and ready to go. The Intake manifold gasket had developed a leak apparently. He hooked the water hose up and the cylinders filled with water and the rest was history. There were exhaust valve pieces from one cylinder in a different cylinder. One piston has a hole in it. Needless to say, I paid much less for it than the price listed in the add. After buying a brand new marine reverse rotation long block, I still have a good bit less money in it than his asking price. Thanks again, Christopher ------------- To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-25-2010 at 6:37pm
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You would have also had to take the pistons off the rods and give then a 180. Another crises averted. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Topher170
Date Posted: August-25-2010 at 8:19pm
|
Thanks again. I sprayed pb plaster onto the shaft and let it soak while I cleaned and painted the pulleys, valve covers, oil pan, ect.
After about an hour I gave it a couple gentle smacks with the good ole dead blow and it came right off. ------------- To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-25-2010 at 10:14pm
Christopher, The only mistake you made  is falling for the advertising hype and bought the PB blaster!! Seriously, we just had a post not too long ago where the testing results of different rust busting lubricants were listed. PB I believe was 2nd from the bottom just over plain old 3in1 oil. The 50/50 mix of ATF and a solvent was at the top and then right below it was the Kroil.
Glad you got it off. BTW, don't even get me going on WD40!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Topher170
Date Posted: August-26-2010 at 1:38am
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Interesting. I've been using pb blaster for years. It's the best stuff I've ever used. We used to own a exhaust shop, and it was the best I ever found for removing rusted manifold/header bolts. I'll have to search for the thread you are talking about. ------------- To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid. |
Posted By: Topher170
Date Posted: August-27-2010 at 1:11am
|
btw, I've never seen an advertisement for pb blaster. Maybe it isn't as popular in the south. I just had a conversation about it with a few of my friends and none of them had ever even heard of it. ------------- To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-27-2010 at 8:54am
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Here's the list of torque requirments copied from the other thread:
Penetrating oil ..... Average load None ...................... 516 pounds WD-40 ................... 238 pounds PB Blaster ............... 214 pounds Liquid Wrench ......... 127 pounds Kano Kroil .............. 106 pounds ATF-Acetone mix.......53 pounds I don't even consider WD40 to be a penetrating oil so that puts PB at the bottom for me. Kroil is a on line order only so when I was taking my 1927 Flexifour apart and trying to break the rusted pistons loose, I did pick up a can of PB. A week went by with no luck and then the Kroil came in. The next day after using some of the Kroil, all four pistons were loose. I ended up using the PB as a honing lubricant!
The home brew ATF and reducing it with a solvent is real interesting! I need to mix up a batch and give it a try. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Topher170
Date Posted: August-27-2010 at 10:01am
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I'm going to mix up a batch of atf and solvent now. The main pully is being a pain. I've always been satisfied with pb, so I should love the kroil or home brew. ------------- To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid. |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: August-27-2010 at 11:56pm
| Well . . . I shipped on Monday the 23rd, projected arrival Thursday. Fed-Ex tracking shows it making it to Fort Worth on the 24th and nothing after that. Hmmmm. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: August-28-2010 at 10:40am
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i recieved one yesterday but didnt look, I'll look this morning...there goes my weekend lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: August-28-2010 at 12:01pm
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Pete - the ATF/Acetone mix is great info to know - I always have those on hand (Carb Cleaner is acetone). This is a great example of why this site is so valuable for education. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-28-2010 at 4:33pm
No. Only about 20%, the rest is toluene, methanol, iso, MEK and xylene. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: September-01-2010 at 1:07pm
I take it the one you received wasn't mine (painted off-white, packed in a milk crate with my name and address in black magic marker on the plywood crate-top, all inside a cardboard box)? The shop has a work order from me, but no tranny. Priceless. Grrrr, --Shawn * This is not FF's fault! |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-02-2010 at 10:12am
|
???? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: September-02-2010 at 8:14pm
| My transmission went MIA. |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: September-02-2010 at 8:34pm
brunstucky mail!!! ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: September-02-2010 at 8:45pm
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Nah, it never made it anywhere near Ohio.
Brunstucky = funny. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-03-2010 at 10:20am
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I would bet its on a Amish buggy somewhere.....dont worry, if its lost I'll build you one at the same cost and get it to you
------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: September-04-2010 at 9:47pm
| Very generous offer. I may take you up on it, but for now I bought a used one form a guy down the street. Looks a little rough, but supposedly worked fine & didn't leak when removed. We'll see . . . |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-05-2010 at 12:42pm
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its in his garage for a reason.... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-19-2010 at 1:36am
| Fed Ex dropped off the transmission I shipped back in August. lol. Looks like I've been given a Christmas toy to play with over the holidays. |