ford cammer engine
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24553
Printed Date: May-06-2024 at 6:51am
Topic: ford cammer engine
Posted By: eric lavine
Subject: ford cammer engine
Date Posted: January-05-2012 at 10:13am
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im surprised you blue balls never mentioned this engine, it kicked the hemi's ass in the 60's ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Replies:
Posted By: FINS
Date Posted: January-05-2012 at 11:55am
And, in this trim it will still kick ass!
 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2262&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1925&yrend=1960" rel="nofollow - 59 ATOM Lake Tapps, Wa. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: January-05-2012 at 12:14pm
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The sohc 427?
Seeing how they just made just the minimum to be permitted by nascar to try them out. They were hand made, so not not worth big smack talk boasts, and could barely fit in a galaxie Even the boss 429 (semi-hemi) wound't fit in the pony cars without a cutting torch, but at least a few thousand were delivered to customers. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-05-2012 at 12:17pm
| For some reason that engine's been ticking people off since it was invented. Chrysler and Ferrari couldn't beat it so they got it DQ'd. |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-05-2012 at 1:13pm
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it does feel good i am sure that ford fans got "a" good motor ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 3:39am
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There is a place in my heart for the old Ford performance / racing engines. That is a piece of the puzzle that led me to the CC Mustang. The 427 "cammer" sohc was available as an option in Fords as mundane as a 4 door Galaxy. It was not a popular option however. It was not well suited for a street car, with max HP at between 7000-7500 rpm and huge valve overlap. Ford published the HP at 616, however I have seen other dyno claims from back in the day of 657hp for it. Pretty impressive for a N/A engine. I believe it was the most powerful engine available in a production car for many years. I am not sure what surpasses it today, surely nothing in a family car at an affordable price. My first car was a 65 Ford Galaxie 500 XL convertible with a 427 4 speed (the only trans the 427 came with). I have loved these engines since 1970 when I got my Galaxie. Fred Lorenzen won the 1965 Daytona in a 65 Holman Moody Ford Galaxie. He was an amazing driver and he lived in Elmhurst, IL, the suburb next to mine. He still lives only a few miles from me, but his health is not good. I have never met him.
This connection to the Fords of my youth led me to Donzis and CCs. I think the CC fits my needs better. Although I think the Interceptor is a great engine and has more than enough power for a Mustang, I Love the H/M engines principally because of this connection and had to have one. I feel very lucky to be able to buy one. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 10:07am
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i never heard of it until a couple days ago, i guess the front timing chain was over 5 feet long ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 10:30am
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i would imagine you would have to pony up some big cash to get one of these engines nowadays ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 10:33am
I see you're thinking. Here is a little info. BTW my Galaxie did not have a cammer. I reread my post and by that it sounded like I said it did. Just an FE sideoiler. Developed during a crash, 90-day engineering program in 1964, the 427 SOHC engine was Ford's response to the Chrysler Hemi's dominance in NASCAR during the '64 racing season. Based on the successful 427 FE engine, the cammer featured a chain-driven roller cam in each cylinder head, actuating big valves in hemispherical combustion chambers. Horsepower was rated at 616 for the single four-barrel version and 657 for the dual quad, and Ford tested the factory engines to more than 8,000 rpm on the dyno. Timing Chains And Gears The cams in the SOHC heads are driven by two sets of timing chains and gears. The primary timing gears and chain look like standard FE fare, but instead of spinning the cam in the block, they spin the stub cam. The secondary chain, nearly 6 feet in length, is driven by the small stub cam gear and winds around a tensioner gear and an idler gear, along with the two gears on the camshafts. Two chain guides are present to control the chain position. The entire setup is enclosed from the rear by a backing plate that bolts to the engine before any of the components are installed and from the front by a cast-aluminum cover. Over the years, tales of problems with the 6-foot secondary chain have circulated, but the truth is that the secondary chain is very reliable and if tensioned correctly will give trouble-free service on the street or at the track. Suffice it to say, if the secondary chain breaks, there is some other problem that caused it. However, the secondary chain is known for stretching somewhat at high engine speeds, so a common practice with the SOHC engine is to advance the cams a few degrees upon installation to compensate. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
eric lavine wrote:Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 10:42am
| John, That Galaxy must have been a beautiful car. Rare even back in the day. No doubt you wished you still had it. H/M and Interceptor marinized 427's, although I don't believe cammers. Cammers were an after market item weren't they, and not available in a car from the factory? |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 10:51am
That is the information floating about, however I have seen a Galaxie on the Galaxie club website with one that is claimed to be original. I can't say for sure. There are a lot of possibilities how it got there. Back then companies like like Mr. Norm, Yenko, Carol Shelby, and others could buy rollers and build them. A Shelby Mustang is considered original even though Shelby installed the drivetrain, suspension and other components. Fred. Lorenzen's 1965 Daytona winner. Back when "stock car" really meant it.  ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:17am
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John do you think there is a subtle change to the rear quarter in the ford area on that car? maybe its nothing but it looks trimmed or rolled a bit ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:34am
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BTW Eric, the 427 Galaxies were not as rare as you might think. Quite a few people ordered them for towing as well as racing, and their NASCAR success that year sold a few (like mine).
On the subject of "not available" factory options I offer the following. My fathers friend bought a new Ford Country Squire wagon in about 69. Before he took delivery he had the dealer install a Boss 429 in the car. It was the fastest Airstream puller around. I ran into him on route 12 in WI on his way to his Lake Geneva home while riding in my friends car, a 1973 Olds Cutlass custom built by the factory for his father, a GM executive, with a LT1, (a Chevy engine), a 4 speed, 411 gear and swivel bucket seats. The Country Squire ran away from the Cutlass. My point, if there is one, is that back then many cars were delivered from the factory with "unavailable" options. It just depended who you were or knew to get one. I don't know if the few cammers in existence were obtained this way. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:38am
It looks entirely stock to me, except the fuel door is missing for obvious reasons. That Holman Moody and CP Competition Proven looks really good on the front fender. Here is a great recent article on Fred. We Illinoisans would like to get him in the NASCAR hall of fame. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:45am
| I've seen 427 Falcons and Hemi Darts on the web that claim to be original cars. I worked for a guy back in the early 70's that had a 427 Fairlane. None of those cars were in the brochures. |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:49am
I have seen 427 R code Fairlanes so I know they exist. If it was a Thunderbolt it is a very rare and expensive car now. It was only available to chosen race teams. I have never hard of a 427 Falcon. My friend had a 68 or 69 Dart 440 magnum that I don't believe was listed as an option. It was not a Mr Norms either. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:59am
In 1964, exactly 100 Fairlane 2 door sedans were partially built by the Ford Motor Company and shipped to Dearborn Steel Tubing for completion. These cars were finished as drag race-only machines for Super Stock, Super Stock Automatic, and A/FX class competition. Many had glamorous careers, while some had accidents with tragic results. Today, Thunderbolts are highly valued collector and nostalgic racers. Many are still known to exist, and most that aren't around are known to have been wrecked. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 12:11pm
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Here is the link for Holman Moody driver Fred Lorenzen.
http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/Articles/2011/12/NASCAR-DRIVER-ELMHURST-ILL-FRED-LORENZEN-HONORED-ILLINOIS-GENERAL-ASSEMBLY-AT-CHICAGOLAND-SPEEDWAY.aspx - Fred Lorenzen honored ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 12:29pm
If you wonder what a guy who owned a 68 or 69 440 Dart back in the day is doing now, he is finishing an Alpine Tiger (Ford 260 V8), has a beautiful drag car, and oh yea, still likes Mopar. Here is a nostalgia rail that Larry (on right) built with his partner from scratch. Yea, it's got a REAL Hemi, and it runs on nitro. I got to sit in it running, it was a thrill. The engine looks a bit like the one in the 55 Hurricane thread. And here is the only photo I can find of my 65 Galaxie. Great car for a 16 year old. The photo is from about 1971
  ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 6:36pm
You mean Eric, sorta the way the new Ford 5.0 Cammer is kicking the Hemi's AND LS's asses today?  But you know us Blue "Bloods" are not the gloating type. I mainly never mentioned it because it is/was so rare. And Peter, I'm not even gonna acknowledge your comment with a response, as it sounds just like something I'd say.
Thanks John, for bringing the gang up to speed. I never get tired of learning even more about it. From what I've heard, I'm somewhat confident we're gonna see at least one if not 2 fresh 427 Top Oilers popping up amongst our CC ranks in vintage boats this year. And from what I'm seeing and hearing, 2012 looks to potentially be a great boating year for our whole CCFan gang in general. I'm stoked. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 6:56pm
I was trying to visualize all of this. I'd love to see a picture of the workings. Pretty interesting. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 6:58pm
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jbear should be along in a couple hours to give us a non-gearhead explanation ------------- |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 6:59pm
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Yea, me too Reid. I can't wait to attend the east coast and GL reunions, see the beautiful hardware, and watch some real skiers and boarders tear it up.
I can't bring my boat to the east coast reunion because of some hills, the distance, my weenie tow car, and I won't have brakes on the trailer by then. The fun for me is seeing other's boats. I know what mine looks like and I won't learn anything by towing it there. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: kytom2
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 7:17pm
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Many moons ago my cousin owned 2 of those motors. He used them in his pulling trucks. Gave BIG dollars for them way back when. ------------- |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 7:22pm
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BTW, did any of you Ovalheads catch the specs on the new GT500 Mustang SVT due out in May of next year? the 5.4 liter is pushed to 5.8 and it turns out 650 HP @7000 rpm. That's only 7hp short of the 1964 Cammer which was naturally aspired, as opposed to this supercharged monster. The car will be capable of 200mph+. Quite a potent small block. Now that would pull up a pyramid!
I'm not blind to other makes either, they all have nice offerings in their lineups. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: 65 'cuda
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 7:55pm
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427 Falcon? Think the transaxle would take it? Not so sure. ------------- Gary http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=941" rel="nofollow - 1965 Barracuda SS |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 8:05pm
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I wonder why i am always bashing the fords when i look in my yard and see an excursion, my wifes escape the 37 coupe and a planned trip south in the spring to try and buy a mustang convert... i am a closet ford fan
------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: PAPA
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 8:58pm
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Just a little note; since the name "427" means so much to Ford and Ford Racing they have resurrected it and now offer a 427 built off the 351W engine platform. It replaced the stroker 392 that was available for the past quite a few years. Three versions available right now are the 427/450 horsepower, the 427/535 horsepower, and the aluminum block 427/600 horsepower crate engine. I would love to see that 427/535 version in a boat, that would be sweet. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 9:02pm
John, The problem as always is getting that much HP to the water with only 1 prop. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 9:03pm
Joe's 408w probably isnt far away from that hp number. Allegedly there is a 427w that is all built up and going into a first gen SN... someday. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 10:14pm
There was a thread ebay? that someone made a twin prop Nautique with a home made gear box,but now I can't find it. Now that would solve the problem ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:09pm
John, The problem as always is getting that much HP to the water with only 1 prop.[/QUOTE] It takes a BIG prop with a lot of surface area. I go to Blarney Island a couple of times each year to watch a friend, Gary Frankowski, drag race his 19' Cole. I believe it has about 700-800hp, and he is able to get the power of that Chevy 555CI with a V-drive (not a squirter) on the water very effectively. Since I am not a real boat drag racing fan ( I go for the cold beer, music, and to hang out with Gary after the races. I did noticed that there are always a lot of young women in swimwear at the event). I do not remember what the ET is for the 1/8 mile race, but I remember the terminal speed is over 100mph. Although it is very well within the realm of possibility to transfer the HP, it takes a boat designed for that purpose. The prop on my Mustang looks like it's off an RC model next to his. I understand the need for speed but it seems like putting huge horsepower in one of these CCs, or any other dedicated ski boat, has limited payback, except for the pleasure of doing it. All of the ski boats I have been in seem to be well balanced and perform very well for their intended purpose. I have only spent about 2 hours in a Mustang, but have quite a bit of time in other makes and models. I love to look at ANY nice boat and I will never criticize anyone for building their dream. I am afraid I may have the slowest boat on the site when I am done as I intend to have my boat completely stock. I am probably wrong, but I think these boats should be judged like a tractor pull rather than a drag boat. It seems to me that the ability to pull very hard while maintaining a constant speed and straight line are all important. If you can do that and go fast too, all the better. I read a thread here about the problems associated with making these boats go fast and it seems there are quite complex problems to overcome when you push these above about 60MPH. That being said I am excited about the prospect of watching the speed runs at the reunion! I am sure it is a great event. Has anyone ever heard of a contest like a tractor pull with these boats? Something like a 1/4 mile race pulling a big overloaded barge dragging a sea anchor may be entertaining. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2012 at 11:16pm
I see the event 6 to 8 times every summer. It's the "try to get the pyramid up" at or local show ski team. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 1:49am
very interesting thread.. loved the old Ford pics. now about all this roller..topoiler..6ft whatever chain thing..well all these mysterious sounding items must be under the motor box...where I never go. john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 2:52am
OK, you asked for it. This is the Cammer timing chain arrangement, and yes, it goes under the bumpy thing in the middle of the boat in marine use. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: vrod02
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 3:20am
| Holman moody engine? last pic. |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 3:44am
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Yes, Holman Moody was involved in the "cammer" engine. Here is a youtube of one running at the Holman Moody shop, followed by a short video of a Holman Moody Fairlane with a "cammer"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ1nfaQQt-M&feature=related - "cammer" running in Holman Moody shop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYpXG_EDfn0&feature=player_embedded - Fairlane 1 of 1 ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: quik225
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 3:56am
Kicked the Hemi's ass in the '60s? When and what class?
Not NASCAR, it wasn't legal Not Stock or Super Stock, it never was installed in a production vehicle If it was TF or FC, then why was the Hemi the motor of choice then as it is today? Chrysler had a DOHC Hemi in reserve in case the Ford SOHC was legalized and the pushrod Hemi wasn't enough (which it was). |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 4:05am
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OK, I will knock it off after this post because I am out of control and this is a CC site
If you think the "cammer" in a big bodied ford is a bad animal, it had nothing on Carroll Shelby's creation for his own personal transportation. It is an FE 427 with 800hp stuck in a stripped aluminum body 2 seat Cobra. It last sold for 5,500,000.00 at the Barrett Jackson auction a few years back. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1966-shelby-cobra-427-super-snake.htm - Carrols own Shelby And what does Shelby America sell now? How about a 800HP Shelby Mustang Super Snake! http://www.shelbyautos.com/2011gt500.asp - 2012 Super Snake ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 11:16am
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quick, dont know about the nascar thing, just thought it was interesting iron, and never heard of it...im not a fan of neither Ford or nopower, but still an engine guy, i heve seen and heard a clevor, or whatever you call that thing in person and was pretty impressed, us chevy guys dont have to fool around to much to make power so i was trying to start an interesting conversation...even though the ford stuff is a bit boring ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 11:29am
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it really isa bit boring , its not exciting like the sound of a performance "nopower " with that keer reer reer . starter sound that makes everyone turn away embarrased. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 11:33am
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It's just a matter of time before you guys turn. I was not a Ford fan either until I heard the sound of an old 390 idling in an old Correct Craft...
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Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 6:41pm
Very cool. The huge valve covers make a little more sense when you see the innards. So, are the two inside sprockets up top just idlers then? It's funny, if my budget would have allowed, I probably would have gone with an Excalibur powered boat, but the old Fords in the CC Mustangs, Nautiques (and even Mastercrafts) on my boat have a special sound that the newer boats don't quite seem to have. |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 7:01pm
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I don't have much experience with fhe 260/289/302, but I have a lot of time on the PCM 351. It seems really torquey to me, but I have never been in a BBC inboard. I would think those things really rip from idle. I liked the rebuild thread on one, very neat engine cradle for them too. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: bbishop1974
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 10:25pm
| i had a 64' falcon sprint.sorry no pictures.google ford falcon afx and you will see factory 427 falcons.awesome! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2012 at 10:41pm
Brian, Cool but I still feel the best sounding engine is Alan's 331 Hemi!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |