91 Excel, reverse rotation engine?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33303
Printed Date: May-06-2024 at 5:54am
Topic: 91 Excel, reverse rotation engine?
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Subject: 91 Excel, reverse rotation engine?
Date Posted: April-09-2014 at 7:31pm
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It has been a dismal winter here in CA and I am thinking it would be a good summer to pull the engine. So do I rebuild it or just buy a built? I can't remember if the engine is reverse rotation and if so do I need special parts when rebuilding? If I were to buy a rebuilt engine would it have to be specially built as a reverse rotating engine? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Replies:
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: April-10-2014 at 9:48am
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89 is the first year Correct Craft went to standard rotation engines. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: April-10-2014 at 10:29am
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Jeff - What symptoms are you having with your engine? What are the compression readings? Did you do a cylinder leak down test? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-10-2014 at 11:42am
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Jeff, V drive footers are in fact reverse rotation engines. The gear reduction of the V drive is actually a double reduction so it spins the shaft the same direction as the crankshaft unlike the 1.23 DD boats which reverse the shaft rotation in relation to the engine. The tell of that is to pull the timing cover and look for a gear to gear camshaft drive. If the gear drive is present that is reverse rotation. If the gear drive isn't present it is a standard rotation engine. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-10-2014 at 12:11pm
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Zach, you're assuming it's a big block- in which case, you're correct. If it's a small block, then the distributor gear will tell the story. I too, would like to better understand why you're considering a rebuild. I would never rebuild something "just because". |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-10-2014 at 12:58pm
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Yeahhhhhh, I was thinking footer in my head instead Excel. Regardless the SBF would be reverse rotation as well. ------------- |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: April-10-2014 at 2:18pm
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Shouldn't need a rebuild, but if you just want to play with the motor I would do the CHI upgrade after I did a compression and leak down test just to be sure there's no issues. With a regular 240 motor that upgrade will make a very noticable difference in a boat that's already sluggish out of the hole. |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-10-2014 at 2:43pm
+1 That , plus a big Trim Tab! hahahahaha...  ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
TX Foilhead wrote:Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 3:56pm
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Yes the 240HP motor is lacking and I am looking for more umph out of the hole. What do you mean by the CHI upgrade (Cam, Head, Intake)? If that is what you mean then yes I definitely want to do that but this motor is 23 years old and was in a salt water location so I would like to pull it, check bearings, hone the cylinders with a new set of rings, replace water pump and oil pump. An overall freshening along with a good boost in power. ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 4:32pm
BTW- Love the Cranberry and Gray!  ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 5:29pm
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Gt40P heads aluminum intake and a cam is the most commmon upgrade to these engines and will easily put you in the 310Hp... ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 5:51pm
Thanks Kapla and all the info. Definitely going with the GT40P heads. Is there a consensus on the cam and intake? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 5:53pm
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Now say what about the rotation zach? the engine is in there bacerds, but you say it also rotates in reverse? That don't seem quite right, I dont have one sittin here but I tore one all the heck apart once and I dont remember being particular about putting reverse rotation specific parts in it.. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 6:06pm
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Joe, I guess the way the gear reduction in those V drives work is they don't reverse the engine rotation like a 1.23 does. Mark and I were curious and got to checking numbers on pre 07 V drive boats with RH rotation propellers. They all had serial numbers for RH rotation engines. Mark's footer has a gear camshaft drive which as you know means a reverse rotation Big Block. ------------- |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 6:08pm
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Oh and another note, PCM won't spin a 6.0 bacerds now so it makes sense on this 409 sport sitting beside me the prop rotation is LH and the engine is LH. One assumed in 07 they swapped the V drive to change the rotation of the props. My guess is PCM said screw you, we aren't building reverse rotation engines on boats that it doesn't matter on anymore. Or Correct Craft said hey it'll be cheaper if we spin the props LH on boats that it doesn't matter on anymore. Because, lets face it, you can barely notice which direction these big old wake boats back up. ------------- |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-16-2014 at 8:16pm
Well if your attempt was to confuse me even further... success!  ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 2:09am
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Does this help - 1991 BFN..... Look at the engine tag. It provides rotation indication. https://flic.kr/p/nbWvLw" rel="nofollow">  ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 10:34am
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Correct me if Im wrong- wasnt there a v-drive change during the Excel years? Early boats got the 1.25:1 and later ones the 1.5:1 maybe? Perhaps only the earlier box required a RH engine to swing a RH prop? No way was CC using RH engines in their v-drives until ~2011 when they started using LH props. I believe that change coincided with a v-drive change as well. Somebody has to know the complete story. |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 10:53am
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It's obvious the OP is still confused understandably. FWIW, as long as the boat is still whole, this should be easy. Go and turn the thing over while someone is looking at the front of the engine. That means to actually be looking at the front of the crankshft pulley. Forget which way the engine is facing. Look at which direction the crank pulley spins. If it turns over CW it's standard, CCW is reverse. Let us know what you find out. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 10:55am
| Mine is an early 93, RR 351, GT40's are SR so the change would most likely be in the Super Sports in 95. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 12:00pm
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Let's start from the top. Cross checked a 2007 6.0 V Drive, a 2006 5.7 V drive, and an 01 GT-40 V drive and they all show being LH (Standard Rotation engines). Checked the 91 Footer sitting outside my window and it shows an R in the model number showing that it is a RH (Reverse Rotation) engine. So like said above they must have changed over in 95 when the Excel/Footer went away. So, nothing about the engines changed in 2007 but the V drive selection Correct Craft used. I guess the only reverse rotation V drives ever used were the 91-94 Excel/Footer. To answer the OP question, if your prop spins RH so does your engine. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 12:25pm
C'mon Zach, dont guess- you have the parts books, right? Check late '93, '94 and '95... see if you can figure out when the change occurred. I vaguely remember someone saying it changed mid-cycle on the Excels. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 1:22pm
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All this talk about 2007 6 liter chevies is confusing the hell out of me. We know PCM was building 240 hp 5.8 liters in LH and RH configurations through 1993. I don't know *************** about v-drive gearboxes. If there was a changeover, I'd have to guess for 1994. Did PCM stopping building RH engines? If so, did this drive the gearbox change? Joe, wasn't that engine you worked on a 1994? ------------- |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 1:51pm
I can do this and will... For some silly reason I thought this would an easy question  ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 1:57pm
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Jeff: These guys are talking big picture - what you need to know is what rotation your engine spins, right? I posted the pic of my Excel's engine ID so you would know what to look for.... The model number gives you your engine's rotation........... all done. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 2:01pm
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Ive seen pictures of Swedish's BFN/Excel and it has the earlier (91-93) gel scheme. I just asked Joe and he cant remember which v-drive it had, but the prop he mentioned wanting to try back in 2011 was big (13.5x19), which makes me think it has a 1.5:1 mated to a LH engine (just like the later v-drives). PCM still offers the 305/350 motors (Excal included) in RH last I checked- just not in Correct Crafts as far as Im aware. 6.0L has never been offered in anything but LH. So thats no clue, other than the fact that CC had gone to all LH engines by 2003 (but I think it was much earlier than that). My official guess is that CC switched from the 1.25:1 and RH engines to the 1.5:1 and LH engines in mid '93. Total guess, cause I dont know jack about Excels! I'd say its a safe bet that the original poster in this thread with a '91 has a RH engine and 1.25. Like Steve implied, the engine tag will confirm that- assuming its there and nothing has been changed. |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 2:08pm
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In my example: the R after the P (for Pleasurecarft) stands for right rotation.... The V drive markings vary by model and year(s) but for mine, the Rs after the W (or V in other models) and before the 10 stands for right rotation of a Walther's V Drive with Reduction. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 2:49pm
Here's the tag from a 95 SS  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 3:06pm
Great, I will look for the tag! Thanks! ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 3:07pm
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We're getting closer! Where's the '94 v-drive representatives? Can't count on Zach to help.............(He's only got about a billion boats under cover at his place.....) ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 3:12pm
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My 93 is PRP-WR and the firing order is exactly opposite, so same crank spinning the other direction. The V drive is what changed. There's really no reason why a GT40 couldn't run backwards if you switched the cam and the distributor gear. That computer isn't smart enough to need to know the difference. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 3:15pm
This is from an 80's manual, so it's not complete with the later configurations, but the convention should be consistent.
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Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 4:58pm
Okay, here is a picture of the engine plate from my boat. Looks like a reverse direction engine looking at the firing order. ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 5:00pm
| Yes, as indicated by the PRD as well. |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 5:05pm
Interesting according to the plates both engines are Right hand rotation but have opposite firing orders. ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 5:09pm
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The 3rd digit is a clue as to why the firing orders are different (they are not opposite). Take a look at the decoder I posted above. D = 351w K = 454 |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 5:09pm
Ah, one is a Ford and one is Chevy and the cylinder numbering is different. Now Benj, the R does not indicate Reverse but Right-hand from the back... of the motor? Which would be the same as Reverse? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 5:14pm
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Cylinder number and firing orders are very different between a small block Ford and big block Chevy, yes. Right hand rotation (clockwise as viewed from the rear) is in fact reverse rotation, correct. |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 5:27pm
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Eureka! So any recommendations on cam and intake to go along with the GT40p heads? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 5:43pm
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Not to hijack but is it safe to say none of the Ford small block motors,righty or lefty's had roller cams? Do they have the spider mounts in the valley? Thought I remember something about this but you know my memory ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 6:06pm
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Ok, Don & Jeff: Try not to envy my "K"..... Ha! ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 6:18pm
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I believe 94- blocks have bosses to be drilled and tapped for the spider mounts for the lifter dog bones (per Gun-driver). ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 6:26pm
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Personally I think it is safe to say that no H.O. Fords, gt40 or not were reverse rotation and that no sbf pcm engines ever had a roller cam, although later ones 95ish+ could have had the cast bosses and holes (although not drilled or tapped) for the spider gears. The lightning got them in 94, 94/95s with standard power could have been leftovers, but by the time you got to gt40s they were likely using the new blocks everywhere. With the 302s they made two seperate blocks for 5 years until they consolidated, with the 351ws they probably just changed all the mold tooling up front. Anyway I figure the original poster needs to go to cam research for a cam, and pick up a weiand stealth or performer rpm manifold… and if they are feeling froggy some 1.7:1 roller rockers … anyone else with a suggestion or two ? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 6:41pm
| I agree with those upgrades, joe. I also agree that there were no marine ford windsors (at least no pcms) that ever got roller cams. I bet there are some HO RH engines though- doesn't Randy have a proboss and 1:1 in his 93 Sport? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 6:50pm
 ------------- |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 6:56pm
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True statements Tim and Joe. As far as the roller block, the block # that distinguishes it as roller capable is F4TE found above the starter mount. I have verified that my '95 has that block number. Below is a link to Ebay that has a good pic of one with the lifters in. You can mouse over the pic and zoom in on the valley. http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-351W-WINDSOR-ROLLER-CAM-BARE-BLOCK-ENGINE-F4TE-/221414538854?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338d55be66#ht_1329wt_1057" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-351W-WINDSOR-ROLLER-CAM-BARE-BLOCK-ENGINE-F4TE-/221414538854?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338d55be66#ht_1329wt_1057 |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 6:57pm
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Steve, why would I want one of those? There are right handed Pro Boss motors, I have one. The marine motors have a bigger cam and more power than the Lightning so they probably figured no need to step up to a new roller cam on a motor that was coming to an end. |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 7:08pm
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Don - You are RIGHT! You wouldn't...... ProBoss-like power of an upgraded 351w would be perfect. Good call! Rod was surprised at how differently the Excels behave with all that extra weight back there......He kept the 351 cream puff. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-17-2014 at 7:18pm
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yep I think it was Randy's engine that proved me wrong last time I said that. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-25-2014 at 3:08pm
Lots of interesting stuff. So somebody mentioned the performance (or lack there of) of the Excels and I would really like to fix that. So Gt40p heads with 1.7:1 roller rockers, go to Cam Research for a cam and a weiand stealth or performer rpm. Any other suggestions? I am basically at sea level and can barely pull an in shape, 200lb. single skier out of the water in its current state.  ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: April-25-2014 at 3:50pm
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That is not right. What is your maximum RPM and MPH? Also, what prop do you have on there? ------------- |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-25-2014 at 4:49pm
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Stock prop, like 43MPH @ 4000RPMs ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: April-25-2014 at 5:03pm
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If you don't have an Acme 328 then get that done first. I don't get out of the hole considerably quicker with the CHI upgrade, it did cut quite a few seconds from 12 to 40 and I have to be quick to not blow past my usual speed of 24 once it's on plane. The 328 got us to where we use 1/2 throttle instead of full throttle to launch, the CHI wasn't needed, but I was changing the heads so I figured I might as well try to see if I could push it past 50 just for grins. If you haven't spent a lot of time behind a big wake boat the stock Excel seems sluggish because you think it should move like a DD and it won't. It does move quicker than most every wake boat. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-25-2014 at 5:11pm
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We have figured out with a skier in tow Mark's footer planes faster at 1/2 throttle or so VS smacking it WOT because it doesn't continue to push the nose up with extra power. Once the nose goes down they accelerate like rockets and you have to pull power back fast. ------------- |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: April-25-2014 at 5:23pm
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I had a '87 Chris Craft 21 foot Ski Jack. It was a big boat. It only have a 260hp 350 Chevy, granted it was in the middle with a jack shaft to a stern drive, but the boat was a deep V and weighed close to 2000lbs more than the Excel. I had a 5-blade stainless prop on that and it pulled out of the hole great. I figured I should at least get as good of out of the hole performance as the CC. I will definitely get the prop. So what is your top speed and rpms now with the prop and CHI? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Randy_in_Ohio
Date Posted: May-21-2014 at 6:33pm
Sorry I've been MIA... It's a long story that I won't go into on here. Anyway, I'm back from a long hiatus so I did a search on my name to see who's been talking about me and I came up with this thread! Yes, I do have a RH engine in my '93 Sport. And yes, I think Joe was proved wrong about that fact! I know it was the original engine that came in my boat. From my understanding, my boat must have been produced early and they had these engines laying around and just used it? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1602&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995" rel="nofollow - 1993 Sport Nautique |