Carb Choke broken??
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33389
Printed Date: May-05-2024 at 3:45am
Topic: Carb Choke broken??
Posted By: JPASS
Subject: Carb Choke broken??
Date Posted: April-20-2014 at 2:19pm
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Last several times I've been to the ramp I've had a hard time getting the boat to stay running when she's cold. It's quite embarrassing at the ramo when I am constantly stalling out. Once she's warm, she's good to go. Today I decided to take a look and possibly raise the idle a bit when I noticed the choke wasn't working properly. I'm not sure what the choke arm looked like before hand, but I'm pretty sure it is broken. The carb is a Holley 4010 I do believe. Can I replace just the choke arm? The choke plate linkage is not connected to anything down where the electric choke is. I'm assuming the arm coming off the electric choke should have a hole where the linkage would insert into??? Here's a few pics:    ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Replies:
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: April-20-2014 at 3:07pm
| Mine broke about a month ago. I took it to Woody and he replaced the assembly from a donor. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-20-2014 at 3:07pm
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I have the 4160 and the set up looks the same. Your choke looks fine except in the bottom pic you can see the arm off the electric choke it should be on top of the plastic stop at least that's how mine is. It seems that the way yours is the plastic stop is keeping the arm from raising. Edit: when your motors cold is the choke ever closed? Can you close and open the choke plate by manually moving the lever up and down? |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-20-2014 at 10:55pm
I think the arm itself is broke. The exploded view shows that the linkage goes into a hole in the arm. It doesn't ride on top. I'm not sure I have Woody's number, but I will call to see if Nautiques of Orlando can help. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 12:23pm
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Made some calls today and had no luck. Tried to call Holley directly and the recording said my wait time was over and hour and to call back later. Most people are telling me to go to a manual choke or to replace the entire carb. Unreal. I'm more than willing to buy the entire choke assembly if possible, I am not seeing things that are for the 4010 carb. Mostly the 4160. Doh! ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 12:33pm
| You need # 29 in above drawing correct ?Have some Holleys at shop will let you know shortly. |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 12:40pm
I think I need #28 as well. I only have #77 (linkage) coming off the choke plate. It looks like I need #29 to connect the linkage to the cam. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
oldcuda wrote:Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 1:34pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqEJFqr-6W4&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - Carb Video John, check out the video. The red arm pulls the choke rod downward as the choke heats up. What happens is over time the Bi-metallic spring inside the black choke puck degrades causing it to loose full range of motion. When the range of motion is lost it wont close the choke all the way. When you re adjust the choke to close it doesn't open the choke all the way. As long as that red arm has the ability to pull down on the choke I don't think you need any new parts. Probably replace the spring and adjust properly and get your cold idle back like it was. To confirm when the engine is completely cold the choke should be basically completely closed. I think the adjustment spec is 1/16" clearance when closed. ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 1:49pm
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Zach. the video makes sense. I noticed the arm moved when the engine was first started. maybe the linkage arm came loose. I'll have to double check later when I get home. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 2:14pm
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The engine vacuum will pull the choke open slightly when you rev it. Having the choke adjusted exactly right will make you smile. If possible put the idle screw exactly where it was before so you don't need to adjust the idle mixture screws. ------------- |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 2:27pm
| The weight on the end of plastic arm is broken of in your carb.Rod does not connect through hole just helps pull it down.Let me see if I can send pic with phone |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 2:31pm
That's funny because I've called Holley in the past a human answered the phone and I was at lost for words because the last thing I expected was a human. Call Woody at Southeast, last month he robbed a donor carb for me. 407/851-1965 |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 2:44pm
| Also, Juniors Racing shop in Cocoa is a shot. He's 100% Strictly Holley. Kinda a strange fellow but many parts if he'll let go of what you need. |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 3:07pm
| Can't do pic but there is supposed to be weight at end of arm to aid pressure for fast idle cam.Do have one that looks the same.Does not look like it would effect cold start setting on choke just helps keeping arm against rod for cold idle setting |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 3:29pm
I think I know what you're talking about, but all of the info says it's only compatible with 4150/4160 carbs. Just put a call in to Woody to see if he can help.  ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 4:12pm
| Let me know if you can't find the part you need. I switched to a 4160 and still have my old 4010. |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 6:03pm
| That's the one I have do you have cold idle adjustment screw?Carb I took it from didn't so why have it that's weird |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 6:15pm
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Marine Carbs don't have fast cold idle settings so they don't need that step on the back. Wouldn't hurt anything if it was there. Might be a lot less hassle and work to pay a little extra and just buy the assembled electric choke assembly from Holley. ------------- |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 6:16pm
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Holley%20Choke" rel="nofollow - https://www.holley.com/45-223.asp That kit will probably work. Seems like the bosses on the manual choke 4160 carbs are the same as the ones that came with it. ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 8:43pm
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Here's a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCEqpvao7KI" rel="nofollow - Video I took today when starting her cold. She seems to idle a little low and stall after a minute or so. Choke cam appears to be working fine. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 8:51pm
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Here are some pics of the choke setting and the little screen thing near the choke. Not sure what it's for. Sorry for the vertical video above.    This second https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RSbsOjkMJI" rel="nofollow - video shows how she idles after she's almost warmed up. Notice the choke plate isn't completely opened. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: April-21-2014 at 11:49pm
 Here is a picture with the choke partially open. When it's closed the top of the plastic piece that is broken off on yours rests on the housing just above it. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 10:32am
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John, That points to the spring being worn out. Replace it and it will probably be fine. The screen is for air flow in and out of the choke spring when the air is heated and cooled. ------------- |
Posted By: dwouncmd
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 1:30pm
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One other thought if the cam is not broken. Someone commented last year that less than 12 volts at the choke will keep the choke from closing all the way; as a part of the diagnosis, check the voltage as it enters the choke. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=6535&sort=&pagenum=2" rel="nofollow - 89 SN <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=6567&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow">7 |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 2:18pm
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Zach: is the spring part of the cap? I'm seeing plenty of replacement caps, but not finding much in the way of replacement springs alone. I'll also check voltage going into choke. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 3:00pm
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Yes, it's inside of the cap. Usually about 35 bucks or so. ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 3:50pm
Found this one on Summit for $27 ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 4:56pm
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Get it done. I can't compete on stuff you can find in automotive world. There are specs on how to set the choke closed clearance. You don't want it completely slammed shut hard because it will hold too much air but if it's open slightly too large it will run just like it does right now. That is the most common choke failure I have seen. Yes you are missing that weight on the red arm but an ounce or two shouldn't make it not close. If anything the weight is to assist with opening because it pulls downward on the choke rod. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 9:33pm
Since the choke runs off the same circuit as the ignition, get the volt meter and wiring diagram out! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 10:14pm
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Safe to assume I should have around 12V at the choke when the key is switched on correct? Im not the best with electrical issues, but I do have a meter. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 10:16pm
| Should be same as your battery voltage. |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-22-2014 at 10:41pm
Gotcha. I'll check it tomorrow after work. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: April-23-2014 at 10:22am
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John, I gotta agree with Zach here. The coil is toast. Pretty common really. I had the same issue as you (hard to keep runnimg when cold and then ran fine after warm). As long as it's adjusted properly, you'll be amazed how nice the boat will start. Just make sure you make the adjustment (1/16"-1/8" crack) in the choke plate before you try to turn the key on. As soon as power is applied the choke plate will start to open up and if you haven't made the right adjustment yet you'll have to make sure it completely closes again before you can set the gap. It can take a while for it to completely close again so just do it before you power it up. Also, it's easy to miss getting the loop of the coil properly placed on the pin of the choke plate arm. After you get everything back together (before powering up again), rotate the plastic coil housing and make sure that the choke plate opens and closes with the rotation of the housing. Then set the gap and you're good to go. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-23-2014 at 10:38am
+1^^^ Also, voltage doesn't give a rats ass about the choke closing. The only thing that causes the choke to close is the spring retracting as it cools off. The 12v will open the choke. You want to check and make sure. PCM wired chokes directly to 12v source wires (should be red) Other maranizations I have seen sometimes use the resisted side of the ballast. Anywho, you will probably see between 11 and 11.5 with the key source on if you are reading it with a meter. I think the only reason the red piece is there was to be the function of fast idle if it was an automotive carb. We see coils out of range all the time on boats that customers bring in the say they have to pump it more than they used to. I am kind of a stickler on cold starts. The pcm manual gives you a 2-3 pump procedure and hold at 1200 rpm for 30 seconds. I like to try really hard and make them start with the key only and no pumps  . Every boat is different though. Another note, don't turn the coil past the range listed on the choke housing or you could bend the spring out of range and be right back in the same boat (no pun intended). ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-23-2014 at 11:52am
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Thanks again guys. I ordered a new choke cover plate this morning. I also have another carb coming from a forum member so I have a spare that I can tear into and rebuild eventually. Only had to pay for the shipping. She fires right up after three pumps when cold. You saw in the video how easy she fired. I agree with you on the spring more than likely being toast. I'll set the gap as you recommend and post my findings when done. Thanks again for all the help. G-D I love this site  ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-23-2014 at 12:17pm
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Ha, it's a pretty neat spot to hang out. Outside of that I really haven't tinkered with the Fish Bowl style Holley's. We did run a "Summit" fish bowl style on a fairly hot SBC a while ago. I am sure Holley made it and branded it "Summit Racing". Jet changes are cake easy on the fish bowl style carbs as you loose no fuel when you crack the top open. ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-27-2014 at 3:48pm
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So I got the new choke cap yesterday and went for the install today. I noticed that when I set the cap pointer to the center of the arks on the carb, the choke was full open. Upon closer inspection, it appears the springs are oriented differently on the 2 caps (not sure if this due to stretch in old one). I went head and adjusted the new cap so the choke is closed with the key on. I'm waiting for the engine to cool down as I did try to start it when I first put it together. I'm getting 12.4V at the battery and 11.8 at the choke cap. Now the cap is oriented about 90 degrees off from where the original was and the connections are near the 3 o'clock as opposed two the 6 o'clock as it was originally. Am I on the right track or did I mess up by turning the choke cap like I did?      ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-27-2014 at 4:51pm
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No you need to adjust it cooled off and the key off. As soon as the key is on that coil under the cap heats up and opens the choke slowly at a predetermined time giving the engine time to warm up. You are almost there--- just make sure you have about a 1/8" gap from fully closed. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-27-2014 at 7:12pm
So I let it sit for a few hours, but she wasn't cold. Still read 110 on the temp gauge. I removed the choke cap and held the plate open 1/8". I then lined up the spring loop with the choke arm and put everything together. Here;s what I've got: I plan on checking it again another day, when she's absolutely cold. The cap pointer mark is on the second mark from the far right on the carb choke body. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-30-2014 at 9:11pm
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So I readjusted everything yesterday. Engine was cold. Choke was open 1/8" upon start-up. She fired right up after the triple pump, but she sputtered out after about 10-15 seconds. Seemed like she was idling low, but once she's warm she idles at about 750 in neutral on the hose. Should I up the idle even more? Very annoying when trying to start cold. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2014 at 9:56pm
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JP, I've always heard people say the Fords are a little "cold blooded". I can attest to this with my experience with my 302. I need about a 5 minute warm up before I even try to pull a skier out of the hole. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: April-30-2014 at 10:10pm
| I agree with Pete, Ford's in my experience are definitely cold blooded but my '76 seems to be an exception. Our '75 SN can't even pull off the trailer until 140 so every time it goes to the lake we have to do a thorough hose and bucket warm up to prevent hogging the ramp. My '67 Bronco 302 is ridiculously cold natured too. |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-30-2014 at 10:21pm
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Yeah, I've heard they're cold blooded. The problem is when I'm trying to power it off the trailer and holding up the ramp while struggling to get it to idle high enough so I can put it in gear and out of the way before pissing everyone off. I may have to start it at the house prior to leaving if I can't get it to cooperate better. Once she's warmed up, she runs great. Even starting her up hours after she's been sitting, she's good to go. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: April-30-2014 at 10:32pm
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Sounds just like dad's boat to a T. Whenever I feel bad about blocking the ramp, I just think of the guy before me who blocked, and the guy before him, and so on. |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: May-01-2014 at 11:22am
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John, I don't think I've even been in a carbed boat that didn't need a little feathering of the throttle to keep it running when you first start it up. On my boat and John's you need to keep your hand on the throttle to keep it running for at least the first 45 seconds to a minute with a little gentle persuasion to keep it running. It'll want to sputter and die a couple times in the first 30 seconds and if it does die, I guaranty it'll be flooded. You have to hold the throttle WFO to start it again. I don't care who's waiting in line at a ramp, one minute while getting it warmed up is not unreasonable. Too many people have become spoiled by the fuel injected motors now days and many newbies/youngin's have never even started a carbed motor. They can't comprehend what "cold blooded" even means. By the way, 750RPM in neutral and warm is too fast. Shifting into gear at that RPM is really hammering the tranny. It should be 600-650. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-01-2014 at 11:57am
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John, there are a lot of things that go into tuning it to run perfectly after first start up. You need to get a vacuum gauge on it to set the idle circuits properly. I personally like a little hotter idle than specified. Like Eddie said, I like to run about 600-650 in gear while moving. Pushing the trailer is when the idle circuits should be set to max vacuum readings. 600-650 in gear moving will make neutral idle between 800-850. The factory timing setting for idle is very conservative (I don't know why). It is also conservative on total advance. These boats run very well cold when the BTDC timing at idle is around 10-12 degrees instead of 6 or so (which makes them very lazy). That will also get you around 32-34 total advance on the all in. More timing (to a point) will allow easier starts and less laziness into gear especially when cold. I just set up a 4160 on the river yesterday on a 93 with P heads. This was before it was tuned up(wrong plugs, nasty cap/rotor, original wires). With a few pumps and one clear out (small rev) I was able to put it into gear immediately off the trailer. Another thing that needs verified also is that the timing advance is moving freely. I have seen sticky advance mechanisms (mine included) that will give you trouble because you set it up while its stuck and go to re start and it goes back to no advance completely negating the settings you just did. I was being cheap last year and my choke spring went bad (won't close properly). So essentially my boat has no choke. With a pump and a rev and 15 seconds of run time or so my boat will plug right along at idle with the choke completely open so it is possible to get it set up exactly right. Side note, what we can do is actually better than per the pcm manual back in the day. It specifies something like 30 seconds run at 1200 rpms before going into gear. We just set up another big block footer that will fire off the key with no pumping. Just turn it and it fires. ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: May-01-2014 at 12:45pm
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Zach, I have my old vacuum gauges from my motorcycle. I allowed me to sync all 4 carbs. I'll have to see how to hook it up to a holley carb (I'm not sure how to do this yet). I'm also still running the stock ProTec ignition. I'm saving the money for a DUI. I'm about half way there and hope to have it no later than July or August. I don't own a timing gun as of yet, but I can check the timing once I get one of those as well. As you know the choke cap and spring are new and seem to working as they should. She usually idles at 700-750 in neutral and about 650-680 in gear once shes warmed up. Motor has 1684 hours on it and the plugs were changed last July. I'' have to see if I can borrow or rent a timing light so I can see where I am at currently. I'm assuming this is stuff I can check on the hose at the house. Thanks for the input. I now have a few more items to check. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-01-2014 at 12:54pm
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Different boats like different things. The vac reading in gear loaded should be greater than 15hg. If it isn't it's either worn out or there is a vacuum leak somewhere. Also, another reason I like a little more timing at idle is because it allows you to run the butterfly setting closed more allowing more accurate control from the idle circuits. My rule of thumb is the further closed the better as long as they are resting on a static setting of the idle screw. You don't want to go so far as to have the butterflies closing on the venture themselves because that won't be exactly the same 100% of the time. Procedure for adjusting the idle circuits is a 1:1 ratio. So if you turn one 1/4 turn you turn the other 1/4 turn. Pending the carburetor, I have found this sometimes to not be the best. If the adjustment is vastly different per side there is an issue but if it takes being 1/2 to 1/4 turn different to make it run exactly the way it's supposed to there is no harm of foul by doing so. I have found it's all pretty subjective from boat to boat, carb to carb, etc. Just take the PCV off and get a proper adapter for your Vac gauge to hook to that. That will give you the Vacuum reading you need. If it changes the behavior drastically of the engine when you plug the PCV back in it means A) either the incorrect valve or B) worn out. Shut it off before you unplug the Vac gauge. Plug the PCV back in and try to key start it. If you can't kill the engine by turning one idle circuit screw all the way in then you have other issues. ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: May-01-2014 at 1:29pm
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I'll have to get some pics off my spare carb so I can make sure I am adjusting the right things. Thanks again for the help Zach. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-01-2014 at 1:32pm
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You are getting close to getting it the way you want it ! ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: May-01-2014 at 10:57pm
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So here's a pic of the spare 4010 carb. The unlabeled red arrows are what I am assuming are pointing to the idle circuit adjuster screws. I was going to tee my gauges where the arrow is pointing to what I think is a vacuum circuit?? Also a pic of my gauge. Worked great on my skis and bikes. I can take four readings simultaneously.    ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-02-2014 at 10:30am
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Cool vacuum gauge! Wish I could answer definitively on the idle screws but I'd guess you're right. The only tinkering I've done on a 4010 was to remove it and put a 4160 on. For the vacuum source, why not use the Pcv port on the 1" intake spacer? |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-02-2014 at 10:53am
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Yea that gauge is sweet. Ha Tim, I prefer the 4160 as well but I am guessing those are the idle circuit screws. You want to use the rear PCV port like time said because you want to take the PCV out of the equation when you are tuning for vacuum. ------------- |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: May-02-2014 at 11:18am
I'll have to see this spacer you're talking about. I don't recall seeing a spacer between the carb and intake manifold, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I can tee into that if you guys think that's the best place to do so. Vacuum tool is pretty sweet. Older ones were mercury filled, which would dry out over time. This one has SS slides that move up and down to show vacuum levels. I'll try to post a video of me testing it. Can I still move the "dizzy" to change the timing if needed with the ProTec? ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |