95 SN Running Great, now won't start
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37467
Printed Date: April-28-2024 at 12:35am
Topic: 95 SN Running Great, now won't start
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Subject: 95 SN Running Great, now won't start
Date Posted: October-04-2015 at 2:07pm
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Went out all day Friday. The boat is running like a Swiss watch! Went back out Saturday and she fired up with a quick turn of the key, immediately. Very strong start, no lagging at all. Backed off the trailer, ran down the lake with great power, everything working perfectly! Cool temps, perfect water! So after about 30 minutes of running, we stop to float and swim. When we're ready to leave I go to start and nothing. Just a single click. Not even acting like it was trying to turn over. Gauges all come up, battery shows 12V (or maybe a little higher), stereo works great, but no starting. The battery is one month old, not a deep cycle. And as I said, the first start of the day was effortless, running before the key popped back to the on position. Fired up with a roar! Does the GT40 have a solenoid? It feels just like when I had a bad solenoid in a car. Just a single click and nothing else. I really hate getting towed for an hour back to the ramp! But thank goodness for lake patrol! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Replies:
Posted By: Donald80SN
Date Posted: October-04-2015 at 4:08pm
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Yes, but it is not on the starter. It is mounted on an electrical panel on the back of the engine. Usually under a plastic box. Normally, there is a red button on the box. Get a high quality PCM one and not an off brand. You will have the problem again with an off brand like Sierra. Go to Discount Inboard Marine AKA Ski Dim.com or Zack at N3 ( Site Sponsor) in Indy or Nautique Parts.com AKA White Lake Marine ( NC) to get a PCM unit. Also, check all of your batter cable connections for corrosion. I upgraded up old cables on my1980 to larger marine from a web-site titled www.genuinedealz.com ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique SOLD Back to Cypress Gardens 2002 Sport Nautique, GT-40, FCT2, Cover Sports, Tower Bimini, Inc., Wet Sounds Audio System, Star Gazer Wake Edition S. 1968 Ski Nautique, Project. |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-04-2015 at 4:37pm
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Thanks! The battery cables are brand new, two weeks old. The old ones were so corroded that they would literally spin on the battery terminals even clamped all the way down. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-04-2015 at 4:40pm
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Since you do hear a click, it sounds like you are getting power to the starter relay (solenoid) if so, that rules out the NSS (neutral safety switch) but check it anyway. Get the VOM out and make sure you are getting 12 volts to the relay coil. Ohm the start relay contacts to make sure it is the relay before getting a new one and throwing parts at the problem. When it's coil is energized, you should get a near zero reading. I agree with Don and my money is on battery cables and the connections. When you connected the battery cables, did you use a terminal cleaner (wire brush type)? If you have repair type terminal ends (the ones where the cable is clamped to the terminal with 2 bolts and a strap), you defiantly need new cables. Yes on the larger gauge and yes on marine grade. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-04-2015 at 5:44pm
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I wish there was someone here on the board in the Houston area that was a PCM mechanic! I really want to learn some of this to do myself but unfortunately, I am not a mechanic and stand there and stare at the motor like an idiot! haha I have to rely on shops to diagnose. From "over the years" experience, I would say that this is not a cable issue. I have new 10 gauge cables to the ignition and new, marine grade cable ends that have been wire brushed and tighten down to the brand new battery terminals. Like I mentioned, the boat gets power to the gauges and stereo and until the last time, started up with authority. No dragging and multiple clicks like I've heard from starters that just aren't getting quite enough battery to turn it over. This time, it's one small click only. How can I find the neutral safety switch. I'm guessing if I have to ask that, it's above my level to repair. :) Can a novice replace the starter relay? How about the starter itself? I was happy with myself that I replaced the idle air control valve. But that is as difficult as I have gotten! Two bolts, a gasket and a plug. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: October-04-2015 at 6:43pm
As long as you have a beer in your hand as you stare, you will appear professional!! I am no mechanic, but with the help here you can do it, AND learn valuable lessons that may help you out of a jam on the water. There are plenty of postings pertaining to this. I myself went through it about 6 years ago. Replaced the neutral safety and the breaker. You can also pull up wiring diagrams for your GT40, in reference section. Good luck, take your time, and pictures, and don't be afraid to ask. ------------- Js |
SteveHookEm wrote:Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: October-04-2015 at 7:36pm
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I have a little brash brush, that looks almost like a toothbrush. If you can get yourself one of these, you can remove the connections, (one at a time so you don't lose track) around your starter etc. There is also a heavy ground strap that goes to the engine block. Remove them, brush off all the dirt and corrosion, and put them back. The brush I'm talking about looks like the one in this set. This set is a little spendy for what it is, but I guess it gives you a full range of options: http://www.mactools.com/en-us/Cutting-and-Scraping/Brush-Sets/BA5K/5-PC-Electrifix-Brush-Kit" rel="nofollow - http://www.mactools.com/en-us/Cutting-and-Scraping/Brush-Sets/BA5K/5-PC-Electrifix-Brush-Kit Mac and snap one (and others I'm sure for cheaper) have wire wheel brushes that will go on a drill etc, that's another way to go about the cleaning. |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-05-2015 at 4:42pm
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I ordered a starter relay from NP. I'll give that a try. If that isn't the issue, then I'll have to run up to the Nautique dealer and let them find it. I'd like to check the Neutral Safety Switch but I have no idea where it is! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: October-05-2015 at 5:48pm
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The neutral safety switch is on the transmission. It should basically be the only thing with any sort of electrical connections going to the actual transmission. On your GT-40 motor, there will be tons of electrical things going to the engine, but just that one set of wires going to the transmission. Now, all a neutral safety switch does, is open or close, depending on whether or not the transmission is in gear. If the tranny is in neutral, it is safe to start, so the switch should be "closed" or "completed" allowing current to pass through. As far as testing it, there a couple ways to skin that cat: *The hack way: use a jumper test lead to connect the two terminals of the NSS thereby connecting them together and closing the switch. The downside of this is if the tranny actually is hung up in gear, the engine will start and you'll go barreling towards the nearest obstruction. *The multimeter way1 (continuity): Within the multimeter way, your best bet is if you have one with an audible continuity alarm. If the switch is working (closed in neutral), closed is continuous, therefore the continuity tone should sound when you probe both ends of the neutral safety switch. The only real downside of this is you should unplug both ends of the NSS (neutral safety switch), so other boat wiring stuff is not interfering. The multimeter way2 (voltage): You set your voltmeter (multimeter) to 12volts dc. You take your ground side, and semi permanently connect it/touch it to a known good ground. This can be the battery negative, the engine block, etc. You'll need a helper to hold your ground side and turn the key. In this method, you'll use the positive probe to test both sides of the NSS. With the helper turning they key to start, you'll use your positive probe to probe both sides of the NSS. You should get voltage on both sides. If you get voltage one one side, and not the other (with the key in the start position), well then you've found your problem. The test light way (similar to the multimeter voltage way): I actually prefer to use a test light, because the ground wire has a beefy alligator clip if it's a good one. This saves you from having to have a helper hold your ground side for you. In this case, you have your alligator clipped ground wire going to battery negative, or another good ground. Again, you have your helper turn the key to start, while you probe both sides of the NSS. The light should light on at least one side, confirming they key is sending voltage to the NSS. -If it lights on one side and not the other, again, your NSS is faulty -If it lights on neither side, the problem is upstream, likely they key -If it lights on both sides, the NSS is good, move downstream to the solenoid. Here's a link to a high quality test light: http://www.mactools.com/en-us/Diagnostics-and-Testing/Circuit-Fuse-Testers/9cc1c443-bc4a-4f1b-ab24-a4df0151e88f/Circuit-Testers/ET111X/6-12V-Circuit-Tester" rel="nofollow - http://www.mactools.com/en-us/Diagnostics-and-Testing/Circuit-Fuse-Testers/9cc1c443-bc4a-4f1b-ab24-a4df0151e88f/Circuit-Testers/ET111X/6-12V-Circuit-Tester |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: October-05-2015 at 5:51pm
| It's on the transmission. It will have two wires connected to it. |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-06-2015 at 5:36pm
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Went to the dealer. Turned the key and click. Turn again, click. Hit the starter with a wrench and it fired up. It's the original starter on the boat. It's bad. We've had water pouring on it from what I thought was around the manifold bolts. The dealer told me that if water has been running onto the starter, he wouldn't bother putting on a new one since that will ruin the starter in about a month. Is that true? We were going to address the leaky manifold issue at the end of the season. The dealer basically told me he didn't want the boat. He said they had 30 ahead of me, 5 new boat preps and he wouldn't even look at it for 3-4 weeks. And if it turned out that something needed to be done other than just a gasket and the starter, he didn't want to touch it. So I left there--and I will never be back---and took the boat to a repair center that has received great reviews and took on many of the customers in town that didn't want to go to Conroe after the local Nautique dealer closed. I told him what the dealer said and he shook his head and said, "they only care about the new boats. We don't sell new boats. We just fix everything else." I like that attitude! Two mechanics got in and started looking at the area where it was obvious water has been leaking for some time. I'm not sure if the previous owner knew what was going on but the first indication is that I may have two cracked heads from a poor winterizing (non existent) some time ago. The boat is running great! I can't believe that I would have cracked heads. He said not the heads that have to do with compression. I don't even know what that means. But OK. So he's tearing it down to check. Still hopeful that this is a gasket issue but starting to think I bought a lemon. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-06-2015 at 5:46pm
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Its not unusual for the early gt40 heads to crack in the water jacket. this would create and exterior leak without causing a problem with how it runs. Its not a death sentence but it is going to get very expensive if you having someone else fix it for you. I would retrieve it soon and start taking it apart yourself and save that labor money to use on parts. As for the starter, you could probably take that one apart and clean it out and get more service out of it. A new one should take a little bit of water dripping on it without much issue but I would also tend not to install a new one while you still have leak issues right above it if you can avoid it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: October-06-2015 at 5:53pm
| His comment doesn't make much sense. Maybe he is referring to the exhaust manifolds or risers. I have never heard of either of those parts referred to as heads though. |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-06-2015 at 6:04pm
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The manifolds look fine and he said the "elbows" are fine. That's where he said they usually see leaks. But it was tight. This was low on the engine, below the spark plugs. It looks like water has been running down the sides, low, for some time. You can see streaks of rust. The thought that it was from the bolts that hold on the manifold isn't correct---he said---since the water line for the leaks is below that point. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-06-2015 at 7:02pm
Steve, I agree with Joe on the starter. Considering all it took was a tap to get it going indicates brushes and commutator. Take it apart as mentioned and clean up the commutator. It's the segmented copper section at the end of the armature (the center part that turns). Without getting real involved which typically is making a cut on the lathe to reface it, just take a Scotchpad to it. Then replace the brushes. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: October-07-2015 at 7:31am
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Wow Steve, I hope you do not need new heads! Bummer. Keep the faith, and keep the mechanic honest by checking here. Good luck! ------------- Js |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: October-07-2015 at 8:32am
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post a pic of the leaky spot so we can see what the mechanic was referring to. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-07-2015 at 12:15pm
We'll know soon. Seems likely. They think the boat wasn't winterized correctly at some point before I bought it, maybe years ago, and the jackets are cracked. They're tearing into it soon. A few boats ahead of me. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-07-2015 at 12:16pm
I forgot to snap one before I left the shop. I just called them and the service guy will take a photo and email it to me. They're really good over there. I think I have found a shop I can trust. I'll reconfirm that AFTER the bill comes in! haha I'll post the photo as soon as it arrives. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-09-2015 at 1:49pm
OK, they sent me the pic. Here you go. Looks worse here than when I see it in person. Obviously this issue was happening long before I bought the boat. I wish I had noticed it then! But the boat ran so well. We even paid a mechanic $200 to do a pre-purchase check and he gave us the green light (some little issues but nothing major mentioned like this). ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-09-2015 at 2:08pm
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Steve, Considering the water staining is above the head gasket area, it sure looks like the head does have a crack. Joe is correct that if it needs heads, the labor is going to cost you some $$$. The heads themselves aren't that bad since they are readily available remanufactured. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-09-2015 at 2:38pm
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Do you have a link to the remanufactured heads? I'd like to compare that to what the shop tells me. They may only be looking for new heads. If you think remanufactured is good, I'll tell them to look for that. I respect your knowledge! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-09-2015 at 5:06pm
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29526&title=gt40p-cylinder-head-sources" rel="nofollow - Steve, I did a google search on CCfan and came up with this thread. Lot's of options for heads! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-09-2015 at 5:19pm
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The Clearwater heads show a price of $155. Tri-State and others are in the $500-600 range. Why the difference? I'm obviously not comparing apples to apples there. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-09-2015 at 7:02pm
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Not sure what you looked at,last time I checked TriState did not have a listing anymore for the gt40p's they used to offer.The difference between TriState and Clearwater was basically the TriStates were blue printed heads,5 angle cut seats,larger intake and exhaust valves,new upgraded springs. Clearwater production builds stock heads. My TriStates at the time happened to be new castings which really dosen't matter.They also would not put brass core plugs in but when it's time I'll do them myself. Make sure if you buy heads from anyone tell them the head bolt holes need to be drilled for a 351's.Any of these companies heads will work for you and will be much better than the gt40s you replace. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 12:54pm
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OK, new heads it is. :( They get them from the marine division of Marshall Engines called "First Mate". The shop said they will not use regular automotive heads. He said they aren't as durable and won't hold up like those made for marine use. I have no idea what the difference is but I do trust them. And it appears the prices are no more expensive than anywhere else. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:19pm
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There is no such thing as marine heads. The castings are the same no matter where you purchase them from, the core plugs should be brass to be used in a marine environment but the brass plugs are cheap and anyone would put them in for you if asked. The valve material on marine heads might be better as well but I doubt it on anything late model ford. The thing you need to be sure of is that the ones being quoted to you use either gt40, or gt40p castings otherwise you will be losing a lot of performance. I would be surprised if you were quoted gt40p marine heads because they were never used in any marine application. I would be surprised if you were quoted marine gt40 heads for less than 1200 for the pair, simply because I have never seen them cheaper. I would refer to my earlier post... but if you really want to pay them to do this for you then definitely ask very specific questions about the heads being used. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:25pm
Oh yea I'd believe someone trying to sell me something over numerous others who actually have experience and have no skin in the game  bet they cannot tell you what the difference actually is---------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:32pm
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Thanks Joe. Here's the First Mate page. Can you tell if these are GT40 heads? He told me he won't know which ones to get until they pull mine and get a number off of it. If he then tells Marshall that number, will he get GT40 heads? http://cart.marshallengines.com/search/Index.php?SearchBy=Marine ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:43pm
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Steve, Did you carefully read Gary's comment? Did you even bother to use the link I provided regarding heads that members here have used?
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:48pm
I've read everything carefully. I looked at all the links and have no idea what I'm looking at. I am not a mechanic and have to depend on others for the work. Saying to me, "just take it all apart yourself to save money" isn't going to happen. I don't have the knowledge or tools to do it. So I have to go to a shop and hope that they are not screwing me over. This particular shop has been in business a very long time and is the place where most dealers send the transmissions and engines to be rebuilt or machined. They come highly recommended and are well regarded. I may have misunderstood what he said about auto vs marine. All I can do is post here and try to learn. I appreciate all the help. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 1:49pm
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I checked they site and they do not list gt40s or gt40ps - the castings they list for 5.8 liter fords are E5TE-E7TE which are earlier designs which will be 40 plus hp lower and may not play with your fuel injection setup well. I am not here to bad mouth the marina, there aren't many that would know that pcm used gt40 cylinder heads on HO engines. Ford marine engines are relatively rare to begin with, gt40 headed ones are only a small fraction of those. I wouldn't expect any general marine engine builder to stock them. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 2:03pm
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Just spoke to my service advisor. He said they will absolutely be using GT40 heads and brass plugs. I think that is what he meant by "marine vs auto" because when I asked he said "if you see steel plugs in a boat you know it's not done right, you have to use brass in boats" He said Marshall Engines will have GT40p heads and they don't list them on the site. When he gets the casting number, that will be the heads he gets. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-13-2015 at 3:44pm
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If he pulls the casting numbers off yours he will be looking for GT40 heads. They are typically expensive, even as cores. You can use GT40p heads instead as many here are suggesting. They cost less, perform better, and are less prone to the cracks that your heads are suffering from. However they come drilled for 302 applications and need to be opened up to use the ½ head bolts in your 351w. This is the information unlikely to be known to your mechanic unless he hangs out on ccfan all the time. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 10:57am
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@JoeinNY They pulled the heads. I have attached photos of the numbers he sent: GT, 5811, WC-P and 2. This shop has always just tried to get OEM back for repairs. They checked the usual sources and couldn't find any GT-40 heads other than from PCM. Those are $1929 EACH! haha We won't be doing that. So I need to find the GT-40P heads myself. I don't want to make a mistake. If I order them, I need to make sure I'm getting the correct parts! I don't know what I'm looking at from these websites. From this thread, I know that I need steel VS, brass plugs and bolt holes drilled to 1/2". Can someone point me to the items I need? Steve     ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:13am
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Just spoke to Matt at Tri-State. They have what I need with performance valves, pre drilled, brass plugs for $299 each. Much better. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:13am
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That's kinda what we thought would happen... for the shop to put that back together exactly as it came would certainly cost more than the installation of a newer bobtail engine. Its not their fault it is just reality. If they are willing to let you supply the heads and still do then work then I would call up Clearwater cylinder head, tell them you want a set of gt40p heads with brass freeze plugs and 1/2 bolt holes for use on a 351w marine engine. They should be able to take care of you ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:15am
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If you go with tristate be sure they know that you are using a flat tappet stock cam and make sure they provide springs that will work in that application. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:24am
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Well, my mechanic won't do it. He said they won't install customer supplied parts and that they have to go with heads from First Mate or PCM. First Mate doesn't have them and PCM is too expensive. I don't know what to do now. I feel like giving up on this boat. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:34am
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Steve, As I mentioned in my PM, since your mechanic isn't willing to cooperate, I feel you're going to have to find someone else. Pay him for his time and get the engine back. At one time, a suggestion was made for you to do the job. You didn't feel you were capable but maybe you have a friend who could help with the hands on. We're always around too. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:36am
| Is his reservation about going with customer supplied parts a warranty issue? In other words, he doesn't want to warranty work done with customer supplied parts? |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:39am
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I am not surprised with that either - which is why I recommended going to get it and working on it yourself before the shop spent any of your money tearing it apart to tell you that they couldn't fix it. The reality is that it is a good running boat with a bit of a water leak. you could be skiing on it today. This is not a hard fix you can certainly do the work yourself just by reading a few posts, going slow and asking questions. It is about 8 hours of work, as its your first time maybe double that. Budget 1500 dollars for parts and two weekends and you can be back. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 11:53am
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" I told him what the dealer said and he shook his head and said, "they only care about the new boats. We don't sell new boats. We just fix everything else." I like that attitude!" So much for that attitude. Any reason why they won't they source the heads from somewhere else? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:01pm
|
They're discussing it. They don't want to be liable if something I give them doesn't work right. I can understand that. Most shops require that they use the parts that they can get. The issue here is that the PCM parts are just cost prohibitive. The shop wants to go back to OEM just like if I take my car to the dealership. They are using OEM factory parts. It's the only way they can guarantee the work and make sure it's running to spec. I can't do this myself. I don't have the knowledge or the tools! I bought this boat as a way to get out and rehab after heart surgery. It was supposed to be fun! haha It's been in the shop more than we've been out. The mechanic and his bosses are talking it over now trying to find a solution. We'll see what they say. But at this point I may just cut my losses and get out. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:10pm
|
The shop is not being unreasonable, not only are the parts not from a supplier that they work with but they also aren’t an exact replacement. That is not a thing that a repair shop is qualified to do. It gets to be a lot of money and a lot of risk and simply not worth the hassle. We always hear a lot of bad mouthing of marinas for not knowing this or that, or charging too much for this or that but a lot of that is simply unrealistic expectations. People who install customer provided parts don’t stay in business very long because if they fail no one stands behind them and the marina either stands buy the job out of their own pocket or they don’t and lose customers. 99% of auto and marine repair shops won’t repair anything inside the long block of an engine regardless of who supplies the parts. At this point you are probably looking at doing it yourself, selling the boat not running, or getting a new engine.. The tools involved would be around 200 dollars. Most of the work involved is scraping gaskets. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:10pm
|
Fingers crossed hope all works out for you. The extra stress is not needed I'm sure. Climbing around in a boat,lifting heavy engine parts would most likely frowned upon by your heart surgeon. First timer trying to figure where all the parts in the boxes go when you didn't take it apart could be daunting too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:43pm
|
I just let my emotion get me when buying this. It looked so good, ran well in the water test drive and has such low hours. My last SN was a 1988 that I sold in 2002. It had over 2000 hours when I sold it and was still running perfectly! It was in the shop less than this boat the entire time! haha So when I went to buy a boat, I immediately wanted to go back to SN because of the reliability. After surgery, I needed a stress relief and some outdoor activity to get better. You are correct, this hasn't helped. And the stress on my wife is even worse! I'm waiting to hear from the shop and then we'll go from there. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 12:50pm
|
In all fairness, this is a relatively minor issue that doesn't even need immediate attention. Like Joe said, you could be skiing behind it today. You didn't buy a lemon. There should be plenty of shops willing to buy remanufactured heads from a reputable shop and install them for you. Trying to buy parts on a 20 year old boat from the factory just isn't practical. For better or worse, they're just not in the business of supporting boats that old. |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:08pm
|
What about having the mechanic order the heads from TriState himself? I can see him not wanting to install something you bring him, but would he consider moving forward with the rebuild if he ordered them himself? ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:13pm
|
@Jpass That's what we're working on now. The shop's position is that they don't know them or the quality they supply. But I'm waiting to hear back. As soon as they call, I'll post again. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:16pm
|
Another issue is that my mechanic works with PCM directly all the time. He told me that PCM said not to use auto heads on this engine that it causes issues. So he's spooked from the start. The PCM guy said that the auto heads will cause issues on the EFI marine engine. True or not, now he's saying "PCM doesn't recommend it" so it's in his head. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:24pm
Sounds like both PCM and the mechanic don't know the difference with marine ans automotive. PCM needs reminding on where there engines come from!  Sure backs up all the suggestions of finding another person to do the work.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 1:30pm
| The only thing is, Steve needs his current mechanic to at least put things back together, since he's the one that remembers (hopefully) how it came apart. Or else, he'll need to find someone that already knows the GT-40 inside and out. Nothing mechanics hate more than getting a box of parts as a starting point. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 2:04pm
|
Gt40 heads were available in a very limited number of auto applications, and do in fact need a few things to make them proper for marine 351 use (drilling out bolt hole, brass core plugs, etc). If an unknowing shop were to order auto 351 heads to install, they would certainly not get what they needed. The gt40 has a closed loop efi system and cannot compensate for large changes in components- so they have good reason for their stance. That said, it's not technically 100% correct. They're erring on the safe side. There have been enough gt40p head swaps performed onto PCM GT40's (in place of the original gt40 heads) by members here that can say with a high level of confidence that it is an acceptable swap. That is likely not the case for any old factory ford head. |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 4:36pm
|
They will only do the work if I go with new heads from PCM or an EFI bobtail motor for $10K (plus install). They discounted the heads to $1500 each. Still deciding what to do. They installed a new starter (see beginning of this long thread) and ran a compression test to make sure that the new heads would be viable on this block. Compression: #1-4: 135, #5: 145, #6-8: 135 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:19pm
| Have them put it back together. Then either go skiing or find a new mechanic. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:23pm
|
A have skied a couple seasons with aluminum tape over bigger cracks on my hitek headers. Jb weld on the heads might even keep you dry for a while. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:27pm
|
+1 on Tim's idea. Now that you know what is going on you know what questions to ask when looking for a new mechanic. Don't rule out looking for a performance shop who works on Mustangs too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:29pm
Please expand on that comment Joe,I just bought a set  PM me if you don't want to fill up his thread------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 5:38pm
It was operator error, I froze them and they cracked at a seam on the water jacket. Eventually I took them off and welded them back together, as it didn't involve the tubes themselves it was a pretty easy repair- I should have done it sooner. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 6:05pm
They've already installed the new starter and I have labor now for the compression test and I'm assuming labor to pull the heads. And, what mechanic? My main goal is to get the boat running so we can enjoy it and not worry about reliability. I have a "Mustang Guy" that works on the restoration of my son's Foxbody 1988 Coupe. But that car is hardly reliable and I don't think I want him touching my boat! haha He could certainly mount the heads but if something didn't run right then what? I am stuck to him and no boat knowledge. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 6:16pm
|
I see you had me worried for a sec. Where mine are going if it freezes I have bigger problems--- Thanks ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 7:52pm
|
Steve, Have your "Mustang" guy do the work. It's a Ford and he sure should be capable of bolting heads on.
Gary, I'd still be worried. Remember they now make them in China!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 8:07pm
|
No way I'd pay $3K for heads on my boat. For that kinda money, I'd do some research and do it myself. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 8:25pm
|
You are in a bad spot but recovery is possible. AER is an automotive Engine Rebuilder in Dallas, they are the largest rebuilder in the country and build for Ford, Nissan and GM to name a few Small customers. They could put out a set of heads locally for you and I bet they would have a set on the shelf for sale. Your shop is not giving you a fair deal. I would take the boat away before they empty your wallet. Needing new heads is not a big deal. There is no magic in a Marine Head compared to a Automotive head. Same casting exactly. A marine builder like PCM might add a little extra clearance in the valve guides because of how hard boats are run but I ran a set of Automotive heads on my 351W in a 78 Nautique for 600 hours and it was running great when sold. Get a new shop or make this a winter project. For the money you are considering you could buy all the tools you need and do this yourself. Use the very best parts and know exactly what you have when done. BTW: My 95 unfortunately had a leak in my boat cover last winter. The moisture caused a few issues but one that I have not fixed yet, have not tried to fix yet, is the starter. It now clicks sometimes when I hit the key. Moisture damage I am sure. It always starts but sometimes I need to hit the key once or twice before it turns over. When I get bored I will pull the starter and clean it up. Before buying new heads for your boat I would pressure check and Mag check your old heads. They may be fine or may be eligible for a simple crack repair. Lock n Stich has been a process used for many years that permanently fixes cracks in heads and blocks. Any quality automotive Machine shop can do that for you. There are shops in nearly every town. Try and get word of mouth advice as to who is the best Machine Shop close to you. Ask repair shops who they sub work out to. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 8:36pm
 For about $1300 you could get a new set of Ford Racing GT 40 Aluminum heads. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: October-22-2015 at 8:44pm
|
Here is a suggestion: Get the boat back, don't bother having the heads remounted. Buy the new parts (the guys here will help you with that). Wait until next spring. Show up at the St. John's river run with parts & a case of beer. My guess is you will be on the water that same day. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: October-23-2015 at 12:42am
| Most of the guys on this forum are die hard DIY'ers including myself. That being said I know many people that pay to have everything done and never work on anything they own, cars, boats, houses etc... There is nothing wrong with that other than it drives us DIY'ers crazy. From your pictures it looks like you have a very nice boat. It also sounds like you have found a decent mechanic as he doesn't want to take chances with parts that he can't warranty. I suggest that you work with your mechanic and get your boat up and running then never look back. It will be reliable and give you and your family years of enjoyment. Good Luck. |
Posted By: JayG80
Date Posted: October-23-2015 at 11:16am
|
What shop are you using? Here is a PCM low hour engine from 2000 Ski Nautique. http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category+Parts_Engine&postid=34998" rel="nofollow - 2000 PCM Marine Engines 5.8 HO Pro Boss GT-40 ------------- 2007 Ski 2002 Ski |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: October-23-2015 at 11:59am
That thing is clean and he's "asking" $3500. Could probably get it for $3K, ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: December-03-2015 at 4:10pm
|
OK, boat is done and ready for pickup. Worked out a deal for them to use GT-40P heads. I had them replace the exhaust manifolds and elbows at the same time. When they were pulled, one manifold had a cracked bolt hole and was almost falling apart. All the parts were severely pitted where they mated to the gaskets. So I pulled the trigger to get new right now. And I got all new bolts. So: New Starter New Solenoid New IAC valve New GT-40P heads New Manifolds New Elbows New Bolts New Gaskets Oil and Filter Water Test Labor $3350 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: December-03-2015 at 4:13pm
|
That hurts, but it the beats the heck out of buying a brand new boat, or even a brand new engine. Sounds like while you're in there, it made sense to replace anything with questionable mating surfaces. You wouldn't have wanted to worry about leaks after all that. I hope you have good luck from here forward. |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: December-03-2015 at 4:17pm
Thanks! It better be good luck now or my wife will kill me. haha Can't wait to get her out on Saturday to run around! (the boat, not my wife) ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-03-2015 at 5:50pm
|
Steve, Glad it worked out for you. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: December-03-2015 at 6:30pm
Thanks for all the help! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-03-2015 at 6:34pm
|
Still a great looking boat, glad it is water bound again. Can I ask what the final damage was? Hope it runs really strong. Keep it inside or do a great job of winterizing, we are in the cold time of year now. |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: December-03-2015 at 7:02pm
Total: $3350 See my first reply above for all that was done. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: SteveHookEm
Date Posted: December-06-2015 at 7:34pm
|
Took her out today and she ran like a Swiss watch! Perfect! No more smoking, no more leaking, no more idle loping. Very happy! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7890" rel="nofollow - My 95 Ski Nautique Diary |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-06-2015 at 8:13pm
|
Thats great,glad you were able to work it out with them. While 3300 sounds like alot for us do it yourself hobbyists it seems like you got alot done and should be set for quite some time. Now go have fun! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-07-2015 at 5:06am
| With proper care you should be good for another 1000 hours. Congratulations. |