Engine won't start
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38905
Printed Date: May-03-2024 at 12:47pm
Topic: Engine won't start
Posted By: Wakerider81
Subject: Engine won't start
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 5:47pm
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I have an 87 ski nautique that I purchased last fall and I'm having problems getting it to start. A little background info on boat, it has sat for the last 14 years in climate controlled storage and not been run. Here's a list of what I've done so far to boat, Drained bad gas New fuel filter New fuel pump, old one was clogged New holley 4160 marine carb, old one leaked gas out of a few gaskets after pump replacement New plugs and wires New cap and rotor Distributor already had ei conversion done by po New starter, battery and battery cables. The motor wants to fire but won't. I've double and tripped checked that #1 plug at TDC on compression stroke, after I pulled distributor and primed oil pump. All electrical connections and wires are good from dash to motor. Compression was a little low ~90 on all cylinders, figured OK there since boat has not ran into long time. I have good spark at all cylinders and I'm getting fuel through the carb into the intake and down to plugs. Last time I checked all you needed for an engine to run was fuel, spark, and air(compression). I'm starting to become frustrated with this and any help would be greatly appreciated |
Replies:
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 7:51pm
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Sounds as though you have all the key ingredients to run. Check TDC , then roll it around another 10 degrees or so. And make sure that the rotor is pointing towards # one stud on distributor. Crank it over. May even need to prime the carb some. If it cranks hard then back it up slightly. Should fire. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 8:33pm
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I would guess weak spark. Maybe get an inline tester to verify . ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 9:03pm
| I have verified spark is good with an inline tester. TDC is set roughly 10 degrees. Every time I try to start it the first couple starts are the best, as in it almost fires, pushes water out through exhaust as it should, but then starts get weaker until I charge battery back up. I'm so dumbfounded as to what issue could be. I've had many people who understand motors a lot more than I do and even have similar motors in their boats and cars(knowing rotation is reversed) and no one seems to be able to come up with an answer, everyone says there is no reason it shouldn't start |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 9:18pm
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Battery the right size with enough cranking amps? (group 65) Choke closing and set properly? |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 9:51pm
| Is it equipped with ballast resistor? Only getting spark while cranking? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 10:44pm
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Here is what I'd check- being an 87 it should be a right hand rotation engine. When you try to start it are the pulley's turning counter clockwise when viewed looking at the front of the engine? If not,new starter could be wrong.If that checks out I'd check the firing order for a reverse rotation 351 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 10:51pm
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Gary, I've got a funny feeling you hit on the problem!!  Chris, Why did you install a new starter? Hopefully you did use a marine version! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-05-2016 at 11:06pm
| New starter was installed because old one was locked up, it is correct starter, it was ordered from nautique parts. Pulleys are rotating counterclockwise as they should and firing order as wired on cap and labeled on nameplate of motor 18456273. It is a brand new battery with 850cca and the ballast resistor is dropping the voltage as it should. I can't remember the exact ohms of resistor and what voltage is coming off of it as its been a while since I checked those. The choke on the carb is operating as it should but I have not adjusted anything on carb yet, it does shoot fuel in while cranking if throttle is pumped as it should, I know some slight adjustments will be needed on carb once I can get it running. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:04am
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Your sure the rotor is pointing at the #1 post when it's at TDC |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 9:47am
| The wires on the cap are wired counterclockwise. When I set TDC the rotor is pointing at roughly 1 o'clock which from what I've researched is where number 1 is located |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:10am
CCW is correct. Now see where the #1 wire goes. Trace it back from the spark plug. Then trace ALL the wires back to the cap and verify they are correct. It really makes no difference about the 1 o'clock position as long as the firing order sequence is followed and #1 socket on cap is in position with the rotor.at TDC #1 Verify YOUR firing order ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Wakerider81 wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:14am
I feel you have misunderstood the concept. The distributor orientation can be anywhere within 360 degrees consequently the plug wires can start anywhere within 360 degrees. There is no orientation to a clock. Get the #1 to TDC compression again, look at where the rotor is pointing and start with the #1 plug wire there. Where have you been researching?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:15am
| I have verified firing order and have had 2 other people verify that firing order is correct. Everyone seems to be stumped and says it should start up |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:18am
Are they going by the 1 O'clock position as well? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:28am
| I was just using 1 o'clock as a reference, each time I have set TDC the rotor has ended up pointing at 1 o'clock roughly. I have gotten a lot of my info from this website doing numerous searches, that's what is frustrating I've followed advise and info from here and I'm still not getting it to fire. I really want to figure this out on my own and do the work myself instead of taking it to a shop and having them fix it |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:31am
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How are you referenceing numbering the cylinders? If you perhaps have chevy on the brain, all they share is #1 ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:43am
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Front of motor 5. 1 6. 2 7. 3 8. 4 |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 12:45pm
| What Duane, Pete and I are referencing is that once you get #1 to TDC then where ever the rotor is pointing. (1-o'clock or 4-o'clock) doesn't really matter as long as that is where the # 1 plug wire is placed and your firing order goes from there around the cap counter clockwise. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 12:53pm
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Check that, I was mistaken, no jugs share common numbers between the two brands ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 1:04pm
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Do double check that the #1 TDC is at the compression and not the exhaust stroke. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 1:09pm
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Grand, When using finger in number cylinder I have it set after I feel the sucking action in cylinder then I feel air pushing out and I have it set there, is that correct? |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 1:28pm
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Yes Also to make sure your on the compression stroke the timing mark should be at zero Then to get it even closer to TDC turning the motor over by hand you can use a Phillips head or wood dowel in the plug hole to find exact TDC. (Usually helps to have an extra person for this) NOW MAKE SURE WHERE EVER THE ROTOR IS POINTING THATS WHERE YOU PUT THE #1 PLUG WIRE. and continue your firing order CC from there. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 1:39pm
| No need for a piston stop unless you think your timing chain has skipped... The 0deg mark on the balancer is enough. Just make sure you confirm compression stroke. It's easy to misjudge if you're not rotating the engine over by hand. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 1:54pm
That is what I was trying to emphasize |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:00pm
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I will check it all again today after work, I have been turning motor by hand while doing it. |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:02pm
| One other question, with compression being low what kind of oil could I spray in spark plug holes to help seal up the cylinders? Could them not being fully sealed since it sat for 14yrs have much to do with it not starting? |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:12pm
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It's hard to do a long distance diagnosis, but, it sure sounds like you have the distributor 180 degrees off. Compression and exhaust stroke have similar characteristics when checking for TDC compression. Only certain way is to remove the valve cover and make sure both rocker arms are up at TDC. Was trying to keep you from doing that. If all else fails you may have to. Some EI get full 12 volts and some get 8 or so off of the resister. Don't know what type you have and can only assume it ran in this configuration before. Good luck and hang in there. We've all been there. Duane  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:23pm
Understand... But I suggest KISS. A breaker bar, a 15/16" socket and a helper to hold their thumb over plug hole #1 is really what he needs. A piston stop won't tell him which stroke he's on any better than the balancer will. The last person I know that tried to get fancy and confirm TDC position ended up dropping something in the cylinder and had to pull the head off to get it out. I will not name names. KISS. :) |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:41pm
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I was going to suggest 180 off too but 1 o,clock is usually where #1 goes on the cap. A previous owner would have had to fudge the distributor. Is it catching at all? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:48pm
I would be leery of characterizing post position as something consistent from engine to engine... It can be in as many positions as there are distributor teeth, basically 360deg. If the dizzy has ever been out it's anyone's guess. I would be surprised if PCM always installed them the same (though anything is possible). I sure wouldn't count on it in any case. 180 out will sputter and backfire occasionally- but it will not run (even poorly). If you're 180 out AND use the wrong firing order (18456273 vs 18736245), it will run on 4cyl. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:53pm
| Reasoning for putting #1 @ 1 is to minimize plug wire length (and a cleaner looking routing). As an engine manufacturer/marinizer I would think this is not a detail overlooked. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 2:57pm
Very true Tim, Don't ask me how I know. Was in a hurry last month. That was after I had had it running. Frustrating to do that.  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 3:04pm
| It has acted like it wants to start, and I had it running at one point, we'll as long as you held key to start and could dump ether/fuel in it, that's when I changed fuel pump then changed carb once new fuel pump was in because carb was leaking |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 3:18pm
There is no position that minimizes plug wire length for all 8 wires simultaneously, you will always have about half the wires going to the far side of the dizzy. Even if there is a position that minimizes overall plug length, pcm isn't going to attempt to cost cut materials to a point where the wires won't all reach with the dizzy in any position. Maybe they were consistently putting post #1 in the same spot but it is more likely tied to mistake proofing the firing order when assembling the engine at the factory. I have not noticed this consistency but it's possible... Still wouldn't count on post #1 having an expected position on a 30+ year old engine in any case. :) |
Posted By: dgpmerc
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 3:20pm
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Having just converted my 1981 Ski Nautique to a DUI electronic distributor yesterday I can sympathize with getting the distributor set correctly to get the initial start. Even though I thought I was being really careful to get it installed in the same position as the old prestolite, I was still off by enough to prevent it from starting right up. Do you know what brand of EI is installed? If it's a Pertronix or the DUI, you should be running the full 12 volts to the distributor, so the ballast resistor should not be used. I would check that first. Running the reduced voltage to an EI can cause damage to them. When you attempt to start it does it crank really hard? That could indicate that the timing is too far advanced. Something that helped me quite a bit is getting a timing light on it right from the start and having TDC marked on the balancer really clearly. Even without the engine running the timing light will still flash and give you a reading when cranking. At that point you should be able to get the timing close enough to run (if timing is the issue). When you say it only tries to run when the key is turned on, are you getting voltage to the coil when the key is in the run position? Hopefully some of this will help. I'm a long time lurker but couldn't resist trying to help out. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 4:03pm
Opposite I believe. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 4:17pm
| ^^ |
Posted By: dgpmerc
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 4:33pm
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I installed a Pertronix Ignitor years ago and for some reason I remember a warning about running the reduced voltage and the possibility of damaging it. You are correct that low voltage won't hurt an HEI, but if you try to run 7 or 8 volts to it there is a good chance it won't have enough voltage to work properly. The first thing I would do is determine what distributor is in the boat and figure out what the proper voltage should be. It sounds like the boat sat for 14 years without running so it's hard to determine if it was running well before being put into storage. Once the voltage is correct, then work on getting the timing right. |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:31pm
| When key is run position there is no voltage at coil only during cranking. Not sure on type of ei was done, I'm assuming pertronix. Not sure on distributor type, it is a crew down type cap. The resistor is not bypassed and I'm assuming the boat was running fine before it sat |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:43pm
That would be the starter solenoid wired wrong then check and see if the other small stud on the solenoid is hot when the key is on. This is a diagram from a car- should be close ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:53pm
| If the coil gets power cranking but not running position it's a bad ignition switch. Seen it quite often. You let off the key when you hear it fire and it kills ignition power. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 5:53pm
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I think the way it's set up now is to provide a full 12v to the coil to aid in starting.When the key is released it takes the voltage from the resistor and runs the coil at the lower voltage. If you were to run a temp wire from the battery to the coil direct and try to start it,it should then stay running,you could try this to confirm ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:04pm
| My solenoid only had 2 battery cables and one other stud wired labeled S. When I replaced solenoid I wired it same way, in your diagram it shows wire off I going to coil? Do I need to run another wire? |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:05pm
| Good call. Someone could have ran a jumper from the 12v cranking pole on the starter solenoid. Likely the switch is bad either way unless the coil supply wire lost continuity or the ballast resistor gave up the ghost. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:06pm
| No, that confirms your ignition switch is likely bad. |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:08pm
| It is a new ignition switch. And when I test for continuity it test good |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:09pm
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I would find the wiring diagram for your year first and check your wiring first. It could be like Zack says but I wonder if the EI was installed and it went downhill since.Someone gave up and it sat? I sure seems these ei conversions cause more trouble than the points ever have ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:09pm
| So you tested the ignition pole on the back of the switch ? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:09pm
Clearly this is a problem. |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 6:45pm
| How many ohms should ballast resistor be? |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 7:03pm
yeah go back and read Zachs last response -- after you check the ignition post on the back of the switch you can start worrying about ballast resister ohms and what nots ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 7:22pm
| OK. Tested the ignition switch and it's good, it was wired backwards. Voltage at coil while in run is 4.7, while cranking it drops to 2.4 volts. With switch in run voltage at one side of resistor is 11.2 and 6 on other |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 7:49pm
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Chris, Those voltages are low. What are you getting at the battery? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 7:58pm
| Getting 12.5 volts at solenoid |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 8:59pm
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Ahh now we're zeroing in on the problem. It wasn't mentioned that the switch was changed. OP said the wiring was checked and good from dash back. Hang in there we'll get it figured out. |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 9:16pm
| Correct I only checked for continuity on wires going from dash back to motor originally. Ignition switch is now wired correctly. |
Posted By: spiralhelix
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 9:24pm
| With it wired correctly does that mean the boat is now starting? |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 9:52pm
Seen it once on my SS |
Posted By: Wakerider81
Date Posted: June-06-2016 at 10:46pm
| Boat still not starting but ignition is wired properly. Still have low voltage at coil tho.only 5 volts with key in run position but drops to 3 during cranking, doesn't make sense to me. I have 12v at solenoid, 12v to resistor and 5v leaving resistor going to coil |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: June-07-2016 at 10:34am
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Unplug the choke for a moment, if the voltage at the coil normalizes, you have resistive loading between the dash and the engine. That little purple wire doesn't have much margin for all it does. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-07-2016 at 12:53pm
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12 into the resistor and 5 out sounds like a ballast resistor problem resistance should be a little under 1 ohm (.7-.8) |