Cooling issue = Blown head gasket
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39615
Printed Date: April-29-2024 at 11:18am
Topic: Cooling issue = Blown head gasket
Posted By: bb12
Subject: Cooling issue = Blown head gasket
Date Posted: August-07-2016 at 11:32pm
Hey Gents, so I've been chasing a cooling issue since I bought my boat back in May (1989 SN 2001 351). When I had it on the lake back in June (last time out ) it ran 170-180 with a few inconsistent spikes over 180ish, but never got over 190- and the risers were getting really warm which made me suspect a flow issue. I went through all of the tests at home in the driveway and couldn't figure it out. I finally gave in a few weeks ago and took it the local inboard dealer. They tested all of the usual cooling suspects (tstat - yes a 143, strainer, connections, rwp, etc). No problems there...So after all of that they decided to do a fluid sniffer/smog test and it showed exhaust gas in the cooling system. They told me it's most likely a blown head gasket causing it to run hot. Good thing is there is no water in the oil and compression is 125+ on all 8 cylinders. So with all of that I'm just looking for a little feedback from the CCFAN "motor experts". The more I've researched the issue themore it makes sense- I just haven't seen it a lot on this forum. Is there anything I need to look out for or make sure the shop does when doing the repair work? I have an estimate from them to remove and check manifolds, remove, pressure test and resurface heads, install new gaskets and reassemble. And they said they would send the heads to a cylinder shop for the pressure testing and resurfacing. ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Replies:
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 3:53pm
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Is this the correct head gaskek kit? https://m.summitracing.com/parts/fel-17260?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-fel-pro&gclid=CP_ig6WRrc4CFYGFaQodB90Huw" rel="nofollow - Fel-pro gasket kit And I'm also planning on cleaning my manifolds and risers while they are off. Any suggestions on what to use to get the rust scale out? ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 4:07pm
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My engine has always run in the 160 - 190 range. Have you done a compression test? edit: Just reread your post and saw that you have. I'm not an expert but shouldn't the compression check catch a bad head gasket. Was the check done when the engine was warm? |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 4:16pm
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It seems to me there are other items to consider before tearing your engine down. Others will chime in with those possibilities. Personally, I would want to run engine while using a laser temp reader to quantify your findings. There's a chance that your indicator is incorrect and that your "warm" manifolds are totally normal. Having said that, if you do end up pulling the heads, I agree it would be wise to have them tested and surfaced. If your budget permits, it may be a good time to upgrade to GT40p heads. I'm 99% sure they would bolt right up and the performance benefits would be appreciable. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 4:26pm
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Yeah I'm having a hard time seeing anything wrong here either. Nor do I agree with the mechanism. Isn't your water temp almost 90 to start with ? I'd just go ski. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 4:35pm
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I'm pretty sure its running hot. The manifolds and risers feel "hot" to the touch, not just warm. I've had multiple conversations with Vince at SkiDim and he said with a 143 tstat you should run 160 no matter the water temp. Spoke to him again this morning and he said the blown head gasket does make sense as to why it's running hot. Here is what the shop says:  ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Lakeview
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 6:23pm
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Check your impeller- if your flow is not good check the circulating pump ------------- Lakeview 1992 Barefoot Nautique 1967 Barracuda SS 1967 Chris Craft Cavalier |
Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 6:49pm
+1 My 92 will run in the range of 170-185 +/-. Curious how they checked for "exhaust gasses in the cooling system"? As the raw water cooling flows out the exhaust? No water in oil is good. If the impellor is working, I, too would run it. Maybe plan on a rebuild come winter? In 2010 I pulled my engine myself and had it professionally rebuilt. Cost was $1800. Then I wound up doing the retro fit distributer, $500. She runs sweet. Good luck!! How many hours on it? Smith Family ------------- Js |
Lakeview wrote:Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 6:51pm
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From speaking to the mechanic and doing some research myself the way I understand it is that the combustion gases aren't being kept in the cylinder and are blowing into the water jacket. I don't have water in the cylinders or oil at this point because of the location of the leak and because it's probably small...and it only happens when there is high pressure in the cylinder. Compression testing won't show it because it isn't high enough pressure for the leak to occur, but exploding combustion gas is enough to make it leak. Does this make sense? FYI...The RWP and impeller are fine. ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 8:25pm
 I gotta agree with GottaSki This leak? is so small that you're not getting water into a cylinder or the oil but it can heat up a healthy flowrate of water thru the manifolds just don't pass the BS test. Can't see how they can measure the combustion products in the cooling system in a boat with an open cooling system that mixes exhaust and water anyways.. KenO |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 8:54pm
Easier to read this way:
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-08-2016 at 9:35pm
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If your oil is clean and the compression is as stated, even in all 8 cylinders your head gasket is fine. In a boat your cooling system is overkill with constant access to cold cooling water your manifolds should never run hot and neither should your engine. I did blow a head gasket in my 78, overheat while skiing when the RWP impeller failed. Any overheat can crush the head gaskets and then when it cools off they will fail soon after. With a blown head gasket my engine ran great for the summer. It never ran hot even with hot exhaust being blown into the cooling system from the one bad cylinder. I fixed it much later. A few times I had to pull the plug to dry the spark plug to keep it running on all 8. That cylinder was down on compression and had water in it from the head gasket failure. I suspect you have a flow issue that needs quick attention. Maybe a previous owner had an impeller fail. Sometimes the blades on the impeller will tear off and lodge upstream in your cooling system. This happens frequently with old impellers. You need to clean out the old rubber chunks that are blocking the cooling passages if that happened. Pull the hoses and inspect at the manifolds and at the thermostat. I think others have posted ways to check your intake by putting the raw water intake hose from the bottom of the boat in a 5 gallon bucket to see how much the engine is pulling as it runs. With mine the boat needs my home garden hose to be turned on to about half open to keep up at idle. 5/8 hose with city water pressure, 40 lbs estimated pressure, good flow. If any of your intake hoses have an air leak your engine will suck air rather than water. It is good to make sure all connections on the intake side are tight. Follow from the boat bottom intake all the way to the raw water pump connection. Does your boat have an intake water filter? Most do. It needs to be clean and it has to seal also to hold vacuum for your water intake to work. Several items to think about but you have an issue that needs to be fixed before you have a failure. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 11:35am
You most likely have an air leak on the suction side of the raw water pump. It's time to replace all your hoses from hull pick up to the thermostat housing. I would first run a continuous piece from pick up to trans cooler eliminating the strainer (cut the hose and add back in later). "Bubbles in the strainer" is not normal. Many times in clear water you can't even tell there is liquid flowing through it. You might also have a cracked or loose strainer bowl, they get tight and very difficult to seal. Any exhaust gas that gets into the water jacket is going to quickly be cooled right back down. |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 12:16pm
Thanks. So you think the mechanic is blowing smoke about the head gasket? He says it still ran hot running a hose directly to the RWP in a bucket. I guess I'm perplexed because they detected the exhaust gas in the cooling system with the fluid leak test. Wouldn't this be definitive of a gasket leak? I'm planning on doing some diagnostics myself this weekend. ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 12:21pm
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Pulling off the manifolds and inspecting them and all hoses isn't a bad idea. You're dealing with a lot of unknowns on this new to you boat. Were you the one who had the boat overheat on the test run? Getting the engine to idle at normal temperature should be easy. Zach's brother has a salt '89 that only warms up on hard long runs. |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 12:25pm
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Yes, it did overheat on the test run, but held steady at 170 after we got the RWP installed correctly. Come down to Wichita and help me figure this damn thing out and I'll buy you a steak dinner LOL!  ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 12:29pm
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If you got it to run 170 then you should be able to repeat that.. Get your hands on a known good RWP. Plenty of Fords around here, someone must have one to loan out. I'm still skeptical of your strainer and hoses. "Tried bucket run straight to raw water pump, still hot." ^wonder what "hot" meant to them |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 12:33pm
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He said 175 is as cool as it ran for him. Every time I've run it in the driveway it seems to be sucking good and getting plenty of water coming out of the exhaust. I would like to try a known good pump and see what happens...Anybody have one they would loan me? ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 12:42pm
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https://youtu.be/QiMbOblIcOU" rel="nofollow - Running video ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 12:47pm
clearly you're new to inboards
this doesn't mean much |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:00pm
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MY buddy said it's not hot - till you smell the engine paint burning Double check all the hose clamps with a socket not just a screw driver, and ski. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:03pm
Not necessarily "new" to inboards. I've owned an inboard before, but haven't had to deal with a cooling issue like this. I realize you can still have good flow and be sucking air somewhere. Im just incredibly baffled because I have an inboard mechanic telling me I have a blown head gasket and all of you good folks telling me I don't. ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:13pm
| Well you might, as could many of us, but I certainly don't have an evidence of that yet. |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:21pm
So you're not buying the fluid/combustion leak test? ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:21pm
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I would like to know how they proved that it is a head gasket,i.e. What is their test procedure? I know how it's done on a car can't figure out how it's done on a boats system. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:27pm
| I don't know anything about it but on a cool engine you could capture the recirculating coolant in the block and provide hose water to the manifolds. Also disconnect the RWP belt. It would take some plumbing but it's possible. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:32pm
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I figure that if you believed the shop and had a lot of faith in their diagnosis you wouldn't have been asking for the second opinion here. Ask the shop what this fluid test is. Run the boat on the water so the engine is loaded, with the thermostat removed as a temporary test and see what you get for temperatures. Not all thermostats are created equal Not all new ones work right either http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38907&PN=1&title=thermostat-troublesevery-year" rel="nofollow - t stat thread Look at the link above, you've looked at it before since you have a post in it. What kind/ style of thermostat do you have now. I've put in brand new thermostats before, just so I could replace it again with one that actually worked when the first new one did basically what you're seeing. Did the no t stat test to figure this out. |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 1:44pm
Yes, I did ask him how he did it, but I can't explain it. He said one guy had to get up on a ladder with a long hose. Sounds like they had to get creative with how they rigged it. They used a tool like http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=LIS75500&source=froogle&kw=LIS75500&gclid=CKbV5LXWtM4CFQuNaQodbTsKYw" rel="nofollow - this ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 2:51pm
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this is where I feel that the BS comes in.... since the exhaust gasses are present in the cooling system by design, I don't know how the mechanic was able to determine that the head gasket was leaking by doing a chemical test. in an automotive style application (much like Gary was saying) the coolant and the combustion gasses are not meant to intermingle. Therefore, if there are exhaust gasses in the radiator, you have a head gasket leak. It seems to me that with a wet exhaust on a boat, the water before the engine would be free of exhaust gas, as it comes from the lake or the hose or the bucket. On the exit side though, exhaust gasses would be present anywhere after the 90°collector at the top of the exhaust manifold. if Exhaust gasses were present before that, it could be just that the Exhaust manifold is leaking, or could be a head gasket leak, but I don't think you could realistically determine the source, or realistically connect the chemical collecting device. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-09-2016 at 3:25pm
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Check for blockages in the cooling system. Old impeller parts are a common blockage. These would be upstream of the Raw Water Pump on the engine side. |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 12:20pm
Honestly that was my first thought when they told me how they tested it. I posted on here because I wasn't 100% convinced it was a head gasket and wanted to get feedback (and I'm still not convinced)...They are a reputable shop and have been around for a long time...My boat was actually sold new there when they used to sell Correct Crafts back in the 80s. Now they are a just a MasterCraft/Malibu dealer...Anyway, he said they had done the test before on another boat and it was a head gasket. He did say his next step would be to check the exhaust manifolds for leaks before tearing down the engine. At this point I have some troubleshooting of my own to do before jumping to any conclusions. ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 12:33pm
I would absolutely be pulling the manifolds and risers to check and clean them. That is basic and will only cost you a set of gaskets (unless of course you snap or round off a bolt head  )
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Posted By: 2DLake
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:18pm
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I am far from an expert, but noticed in your description of the problem photo that you said there were bubbles in the strainer. With bubbles in the strainer I would immediately suspect strainer gasket (o-ring) issues. I saw that you checked connections to the strainer but didn't mention the gasket. Thought I would throw that out since I haven't seen it mentioned. Hope you find the issue soon. ------------- Mark |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:30pm
ditto... If you find the manifolds and risers to be good, and you don't feel comfortable with the head gasket job, you can take the boat to the shop with the manifolds off, you will have saved them the trouble, as they would need to take the manifolds off to do a proper job anyway. Gaskets are a given as you would need them either way. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:35pm
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Posted By: 2DLake
Date Posted: August-10-2016 at 1:56pm
 You are dead on it Hollywood. Don't know how I missed that one. Even looked back through the thread before I posted. ------------- Mark |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-11-2016 at 1:24pm
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Also consider just take the pump outlet off at the thermostat, start it up. Observe the flow of the water delivery system up to that point. when above idle, the hose should send water up over the gunnel. Just beware the open thermostat inlet will burp hot water when started due to the exhaust pressure clearing the mufflers. When you then ensured the engine is receiving proper volume of water, work the issue toward the engine. Have YOU had the thermostat housing off yet for inspection? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-11-2016 at 3:49pm
Yes, the shop actually went through two thermostats while they were troubleshooting. The mechanic said he cleaned a bit of rust/scale out of it. I haven't had a chance to mess with the boat yet, but my plan is to do some diag of my own this weekend with the help of my neighbor that is a mechanic. And Interestingly enough, said neighbor just so happens to have a set of GT40p heads off of a late 90s Mountaineer! Very tempting regardless if the issue is a bad gasket or not! ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-11-2016 at 3:57pm
| Every cast iron thermostat housing is going to be rusty on the inside, nbd. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: August-12-2016 at 4:09pm
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Our 89 looks to move more water than yours judging by the video but it still gets hot. It doesn't drain a 5 gallon bucket with anywhere near the enthusiasm of my 85 or most recently the 90 Prostar we just sold, (have also ran the 85 RWP on the 89 with no change). All good info above so far. Hoses are cheap and need to be done as maintenance anyways. Cut the strainer out for testing. Cleaning the manifolds is cheap like HW said and gives you piece of mind. I am planning on hoses on my brothers boat when we pull it off the lift this fall just to check but I am 90ish percent sold on the fact it has some internal block restriction somewhere. 155 degrees all day long until you run it over 4100 rpms or come back to idle after extended at RPM running. Side note: Cleaning the manifolds out on this engine substantially reduced the overheating. Before anything over 3200 rpms for any amount of time would produce overheating. Now as long as you don't go right back to idle you can maintain 4000 as long as you want.. It has had an issue since before we owned it. It features one new riser(and a burnt up muffler fitting), new RWP and a new block circulation pump. |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-20-2016 at 5:17pm
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Okay, here is a video of the https://youtu.be/AJde103ibDY" rel="nofollow - bucket test . Looks to be about 45-50 seconds to empty the 5 gallon bucket at a little under 1000 RPMs. Hose is bucket straight to RWP and I also plumbed more clear hoses between RWP and tstat housing and manifolds and tstat housing to observe flow. Thoughts on the RWP suction? And here is https://youtu.be/iNP5Ia4D_mA" rel="nofollow - another video running off of my T. ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-22-2016 at 11:56am
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Update: Well I feel like a total dumb***! First of all never underestimate the power of a digital IR thermometer!! Ran the boat again on the hose yesterday and hit the motor all over the place with the IR thermometer...Block, risers, manifolds, temp sending unit, etc- and everything seemed perfectly normal. Risers were about 150ish on the port side and 130-140ish on the starboard side. Block and sending unit area never got hotter than about 140 or so. Exhaust manifold ports were all within 5 or so degrees of each other as well (blown head gasket my a**!). And while taking all of these readings the gauge was reading 170-175. Also pulled the tstat out and found an automotive 142 that the shop had put in it...smh! New PCM 143 tstat is on the way and will be addressing the gauge/sender issue now. And a lake test will be in order to confirm that everything is indeed okay. But it seems things are obviously not as dire as the shop said. I'm really glad I had doubts about the head gasket diagnosis and posted it on here...And I also want to thank everyone for seriously doubting it as well! That's why CCFan is the best! ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-22-2016 at 12:13pm
| That thermostat is fine |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 1:21am
| I made a few measurements last weekend that might help in your diagnosis. I measured the resistance from the temperature sender post to the body of the sender with the wire removed. When the temp gauge was reading 180 deg the sender was 104 ohms. At 170 deg it was 123 ohms and at 160 degrees it was 142 ohms. Each time I read the gauge then removed the wire and made the measurement. Unfortunately I don't know if my gauge is accurate or not but its a starting point. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 10:08am
| If I'm following desertskier on this you have checked /replaced / tested everything in the cooling system but the sensor itself. |
Posted By: bb12
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 11:24am
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Thanks for the info Sean. I don't think it's the sender itself. The shop actually changed out the sender when they were trying to diagnose it. I'm leaning towards a bad ground...I've read up on this a bit and my boat has the infamous "gauges peg when Nav lights are turned on" issue which makes me think weak ground. I read a post about a guy with an '88 that had the exact same symptoms, gauge read 170-190, but he was actually running 155. ------------- 1989 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 11:52am
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Make sure they didn't use any thread sealer on the sender in the manifold, direct metal contact is needed. Run a jumper ground wire from the battery to your temp gauge and see what happens. |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 12:12pm
I was thinking that making a simple resistance measurement at the sender takes the gauge/wiring out of the equation. If he measures the same resistance as me but is reporting a different temp then he probably has a bad gauge or wiring. But like I said I'm not sure that my gauge is accurate either so this would be just more info to help in the diagnosis. bb12: On my '89 I ran an additional wire from the negative battery post up to the dash and tied it into the existing grounds. The cleaner way to do it would be to run it from the engine ground but the end result is the same. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 2:09pm
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I've set mine up so I can monitor Oil press, fuel press, and engine temp while under the engine cover. All 3 are mechanical gauges. Also have engine hours, starter / jog switch, and main breaker on the same panel as oil press.  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 3:22pm
| I like that. Can you switch between dash gauges and engine gauges? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 7:00pm
The mechanicals won't interfere with the electrics. No "switching". ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 7:03pm
Dont need to as these are all mechanical gauges. Trust these more than sending unit gauges on dash. I like the idea of being able to start or just jog the engine over from the back instead of trying to stretch from the key. edit: Thx Pete, ya beat me to it  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 7:17pm
| Mechanical. Wow. I remember those but I haven't seen one since I installed some in my '69 CJ5. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 8:39pm
Holy crap Duane it's an old ski boat not a top fuel dragster  u
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Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 9:41pm
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I agree with the set of mechanicals in the engine area . i have them in my Formula engine area it is just comforting to sometimes open the cover and compare readings. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 10:21pm
That's what I get for crewing on the Nitro Funny Car. Hard to get out of my system. LOL ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |