Lost power suddenly
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41537
Printed Date: April-29-2024 at 3:33am
Topic: Lost power suddenly
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Subject: Lost power suddenly
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 7:07pm
|
Ok, so after an electronics adventure that I'm not entirely sure what fixed the problem outside a new starter, something new popped up. We were on our maiden voyage after "fixing" my 2000 Air Nautique and about 20 minutes into a run around the lake, the boat suddenly lost power and died. I was able to re-start it and it ran for about 20 seconds then died again with no re-start after multiple attempts. The engine turns over really well but doesn't catch. Two things caught my eye under the hood: 1) the manifolds seem really hot; 2) there doesn't seem to be much gas being squirted into the carbs when I attempt to start. The gas was topped off on the way to the lake, and there was no extra smoke, coughing or gauges outside the normal range that I noticed. Is this a fuel pump problem or something else? thanks for all your expertise, I learn more useful info from this forum than I ever did in college! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Replies:
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 7:50pm
|
hot manifolds is a sign of a lack of cooling. What was your temp guage reading? Did you check the fresh water strainer? did you run it on the hose and leave the hose port open? Just a couple of thoughts. overheat would probably shut the motor off. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 8:21pm
|
Here's a picture you took of your engine in a previous thread. I think you have a throttle body masquerading as a carburetor under that plastic cover. That will open you up to a whole new batch of possible problems if you're not getting gas when you're trying to start it  [/QUOTE]
|
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 8:26pm
|
all that rusty splatter on the front of your engine looks like a cooliing leak too... you might not be getting water to the manifolds if the metal water distribution part is leaking. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 8:35pm
|
I didn't specifically check the gauges during this, but I would have thought that there would be some warning before the engine shutting down. The pic above was from the water pump breaking last summer. I'm going to pull the impeller cover to check it in addition to the water strainer. I've always wanted to make a driveway lake assembly. This may a good a time as any. ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 9:13pm
|
yep... search for the timmy Tee. 20 bucks at lowes and you have a lake assembly also good for changing the oil at home, and any other reason you need a driveway run. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 10:52pm
|
Ok, so I tried the engine again and it would turn over and start but only briefly before dying. I poked around underneath the engine and didn't see any obvious leaks from the water distribution. Is there a way to check that somehow? Dyed water maybe? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 11:25pm
Back in the start of this thread you asked this question and after seeing your last post I'm thinking you're on the right track with a fuel problem, but whether it's a pump problem or fuel supply to the pump problem or a power to the pump problem is what you'll need to figure out first Just what my gut is telling me from a few thousand miles away 
|
gravyleg pirate wrote:Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: July-17-2017 at 11:27pm
|
The cooling issue is separate from the non-running. You need to figure out if it is a fuel or ignition failure. Could be both if the electrical system isn't getting power. Squirt some gas down throttle body (put flame arrestor back on & have fire X ready) & then try to start it. It should run for about 10 seconds. If not, start testing the ignition system. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-20-2017 at 10:31pm
|
So I got the bright idea to check the FCC and the fuel filter specifically first before I delicately pour gas down the throttle body. Then it turned into an obsession getting that freaking thing off! I removed the whole assembly and put it in the vice, then threaded a pair of four inch bolts through the top. A six foot long "persuader bar" then made for a fairly hard removal, but I was successful. Now, I have a bunch of white debris inside, sort of looks like corrosion. How do I tell if the pump is still good, or if the filter is still good?    ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-20-2017 at 11:05pm
|
Filter is recommended to be replaced every year. That seems a little excessive but by the looks of that one,it's past due. That pump with that white line looks to have been sitting in water. Might be worth changing too. Changing out a pump is cheaper than a tow or getting yourself into a tight situation. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-21-2017 at 1:17pm
| I agree with Gary - the white is corrosion, if the outside of the pump looks like that, so does the inside. Pump could certainly be your issue, but I hate throwing parts at stuff, so I might put that on the bench and test it to see if it works before replacing change the filter for sure, I would put some anti-sneeze on the threads of that unit when putting back together, or maybe some Dow corning DC-4 if there is a rubber seal. you want to be able to get it apart next time without having to do major boat surgery. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 1:26pm
|
Is there a way to test the pump outside the boat? Or is it better to hook it back up to the engine and fire it up? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 3:22pm
|
Depends on what you mean about testing. Sure you can run it but you could not test any pressure. You would also have to be very careful on what fluid you use to pump and creating sparks. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-28-2017 at 9:25pm
|
Ok, update number two? Installed new fuel pump and filter. Attempted to start several times without success until I used starter fluid. Boat fired up great but did not continue to run. Looking at the carb jets, I'm not getting any gas squirting out when attempting to start. Now, I know the FCC is empty as I opened the drain plug at the bottom out of curiosity. Whats next then? Where is the fuel relay and what about the small oil filter looking contraption attached to the FCC just off the block? Frustration is mounting, but not fully realized yet! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-29-2017 at 12:51am
|
If you replaced that pump then I would not expect it to work, FCC was empty so that means the low-pressure fuel pump that feeds it is the problem and not the high pressure pump that is in the fcc. Get yourself a low pressure pump and go boating... I mean sure it could be the relay or something else but it's almost always the low pressure pump. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-29-2017 at 2:29pm
Alright, I think I'm getting closer! I removed my low pressure fuel pump and took the plate off. There was some pretty rusty colored gas coming out, and the top looks pretty dirty, but I don't have anything to compare it to. What do you guys think?  ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: July-29-2017 at 2:47pm
|
I think you should replace it, good chance that was the no-start no-fuel problem. If you want to verify there is power to it first you can do so, if it was me I'd replace it regardless. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-29-2017 at 4:43pm
|
The Low Pressure Pump is a Carter design. The corrosion you see is common when they sit a long time between uses. Clean it, make sure the pump can rotate smoothly then put power to it. It will either work or not. If it works they are good. These are a very durable and forgiving design. This pump was used in Motorhomes for 25 years. Many Motorhome owners learned to take the pump apart and clean it to get them going again. Old fuel drying up in the pump causes them to lock up. ------------- |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-29-2017 at 5:14pm
|
How do I clean it? Could I spray some seafoam or carb cleaner inside to break up the corrosion? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 4:56am
|
I have used WD 40. All you need to do it get the dry hard particles out of the pump and housing. You want to avoid running any electric pump dry. These are fuel lubricated motors and they can burn up in 10 seconds if run dry. Spray the parts with WD40 and wipe the parts clean spray them again and assemble. See if it works. In 5 minutes you will know if you need to order a new pump. If id does not spin freely after cleaning it probably ran dry and the bushings are damaged. You can't fix that. ------------- |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 11:36am
|
Thanks! I soaked the snot out of it and let it sit for about thirty minutes. Plugged it back in and it didn't make a sound. I'm not seeing a way to take it apart any more though. No screws that I can see and the whole assembly seems to be pressed together. Can I twist the bottom part of the canister apart somehow? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 11:53am
|
I realized I hadn't included very good pics. Looking inside my low pressure pump I can see some corrosion and rust and when I stuck a screwdriver inside it didn't seem to move in any way. I did get out the multimeter and stuck the prongs down inside the plug on the engine side and had good power when I hit the ignition. So there's that. Looks like its time to talk to skidim again....   ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 12:46pm
|
Right, it's not that someone like me that suggests you get a new one, or Joe above who knows an awful lot about these, is suggesting just tossing parts at your engine. If I know my low pressure pump is on its way out or questionable, that's a good enough reason for me to replace it. Days on the water are too hard to come by to take a chance on getting towed in because I saved a few bucks and got a few more boat hours on my old pump. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 6:39pm
|
You guys are absolutely right. Thank you all for your expertise and experience. I'm not completely mechanically minded, but I do like to at least take a look and see if something can be fixed first. Sort of the "I can't get the VCR to work" syndrome when all it needs is to be plugged in! Thanks for all the help, can't wait for my new pump! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 6:54pm
|
That's the original pump too, at 17 years old it's time for new. Most if not all have been changed by now. Not cheap at 200+ at skidim but there are alternatives like Carter P 4389 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 6:56pm
|
I wonder if someone could cross the pump over to "off the shelf" https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/carter" rel="nofollow - Carter from Summit? Better than half the price from Skidim!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 7:19pm
Just google my number above, they can be found for under 60 bucks Summit is about 20 more. You will have to cut your plug off and use marine butt splices to connect, just like your dealer would  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: July-30-2017 at 9:07pm
holy cow! You guys weren't kidding about the price difference! Thanks for finding that!  How do you know what cross references what? I don't see a number or anything on the pump itself. While we're at it how do I go about finding a cheaper thermostat then? It was listed at about $80 from the marine supply places, which is about $60 more than every other type of thermostat. I won't hijack this thread, just taking advantage of free advice when presented!  ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-01-2017 at 9:18pm
|
Getting closer! I installed the new low pressure fuel pump and I actually have good gas into the FCC. Know how I know? It sprayed out the top fitting where I didn't get the barrel tight enough. No problem tightened and I can actually hear the LP pump whirring. Boat still won't start. Will fire up with starter fluid sprayed into the carb, but only runs about 10 seconds before dying. There doesn't seem to be much spray coming out of the jets upon attempting to start. Any thoughts on this? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-01-2017 at 9:25pm
| check the fuel pressure at the rail again, see if your HPP is working. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-01-2017 at 9:25pm
|
This is a Throttle Body Injection setup? You would typically be able to see gas squirting in your throttle body? Any pics of what your looking at when you say jets? My first thought is you might have some air in the system now. Does your Fuel injection have any kind of schrader valve to check fuel pressure? Maybe you could burp it from there. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-01-2017 at 9:42pm
|
Ok, so I checked the schrader valve and it had gas come out of it. I don't have a pressure gauge unfortunately. Below are some pics, they're sideways and i don't know how to upload the upright way. I'll get that figured out later. One thing occurred to me is on my FCC i labeled the hoses prior to removal, but in the long painful process of getting the can unscrewed I rubbed off my marks on the top. Do the top two lines have to be a certain place to function properly? I figure one is an inlet and one out but they look like they're going to the same place on the top of the block.   ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-01-2017 at 10:53pm
|
I was curious and started poking around. I did find this: http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=24972" rel="nofollow - http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=24972 I know my source is suspect, ha! But the image at the top seems to suggest the the 5.0 and 5.7 engines (Chevy like yours) the two top outlets... one is the return line and one the supply line. I'm pretty sure on the GT-40, those equivalent lines, would each be going to a separate fuel rail and the fuel return line would be out the side. I'll see if I can find out any more. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-01-2017 at 11:22pm
|
Uh huh, so I'm pretty sure one of those top lines is supposed to return excess fuel from the rail/fuel pressure regulator, and one is the supply. That pic I was talking about, where it said 5.0/5.7 engines only, well, it looks like that means as opposed to the 6.0L engines. At the time of the manual, the Ford GT-40 was no longer made. So, I think on the GT-40 one line is a return as well. Here is the full manual in context: http://www.pcmengines.com/media/images/imagesL510010-14.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.pcmengines.com/media/images/imagesL510010-14.pdf Pages 37 and 38 go into the FCC details. Have to scroll more than half way down. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-01-2017 at 11:24pm
| Page 39 actually shows a diagram of the top of the 6.0 Fuel control cell, with a single connection. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-02-2017 at 12:20am
|
THAT WAS IT!!! Switched the fuel lines and she fired right up! Ran her in the driveway for a bit, shut her off and she fired right back up again. Problem solved! Almost. So we packed up and headed to the lake for a test run, and now, the idle is very rough requiring some solid throttle to keep going. However, when we put her in gear, she dies. Both forward and backward. Is this an issue of an idle adjustment or do I need to focus on the carb/throttle body thing? I thought maybe it would get better as the old gas got washed out, but it didn't seem to smooth out. At least I got three big things fixed that needed it! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-02-2017 at 2:19am
|
How is the fuel coming out of the injectors? It should be coming out as a mist and not dripping etc. like this: https://youtu.be/qp0D_yG3Sxs" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/qp0D_yG3Sxs |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-02-2017 at 1:29pm
|
Mine actually looks pretty misty. It was a solid mist when it was running, and definitely was better after I switched the fuel lines after looking at the diagram above. Could this just be a simple spark plug problem? ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-02-2017 at 1:50pm
|
You said it dies when putting it in gear - were you able to get past that by applying more throttle right away, or does it die and you can't get it in gear running at all? Idling in neutral, what rpm is it idling at? Not likely a spark plug problem, but certainly could be an ignition problem. Checking timing would be a good start. I looked at your first post and it said on your maiden voyage the boat ran OK for the first 20 minutes. Besides the fixes to the fuel system, have you done anything else to the engine since then? High pressure pump? ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-02-2017 at 2:08pm
|
One more thing from the beginning of the thread. It seemed there may have been a possible overheat? Was that ever addressed or ruled out? I've read on here that if an engine overheats, the marine exhaust hoses are designed to collapse internally, to intentionally choke off the engine and prevent further damage. Just wondering if you could possible have internally collapsed exhaust hoses. |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-02-2017 at 4:36pm
|
The engine would cough and eventaully die if I didn't add more throttle. Even then, that wasn't a guarantee that it would stay running. I'll check tonight using my homemade Timmy-T and see where the idle is. I looked at the exhaust hoses and they looked like they hadn't been melted, but I'm not entirely sure? there was never any additional smell like it overheating and we never saw any smoke at any point. I also have never fiddled with the timing, but it got me thinking about the cap and rotor. Here are some photos of what I have along with a dirty spark plug.      ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-03-2017 at 9:20am
| Replacing the cap and rotor (and spark plugs) couldn't hurt anything. I've read the cap and rotor can cause problems on the Excalibur 5.7, not sure if your cap and rotor is the same design. The Plug wires may be due as well. Just be careful with the order so as not to introduce any new problems before you have it sorted. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-03-2017 at 11:57am
| The cap and rotor are junk. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-03-2017 at 12:25pm
|
That poor thing has seen some serious neglect,you should give it a complete tuneup and fluid changes. After it's been run for some hours I'd drain the FCC and see once again if there is any water in it. If it does the tank needs to be cleaned out. I think you almost have it going. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-03-2017 at 1:10pm
|
Great! Thank you guys! Picked up new cap, rotor, plugs, and wires from Autozone. Will sneak home at lunch and put them on (eating is secondary). I actually feel like this could be it! Can't tell you all how grateful I am for your expertise. As one who is not overly technically minded I love knowing you guys are out there! Unless it catches fire, then you can all pound sand! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-04-2017 at 3:32pm
|
PERFECT!!! New cap, rotors, spark plugs, fuel filter, high-pressure fuel pump, low-pressure fuel pump, starter, and the battery was the key! took her out last night and after about 10 minutes really smoothed out and was running like a champ. The ten-year-old even skied a few passes. Amazing what a little TLC can do. I learned my lesson, that's for sure! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-04-2017 at 3:54pm
Glad to hear your back up and running  I commend you on staying in there and working through it all. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-04-2017 at 7:55pm
|
saweeeet! glad its running again! |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-04-2017 at 8:07pm
|
Great news, enjoy the time on the water! A lot of new parts but all of them are items that would need to be replaced sooner or later, so you should have a nice long run of good luck with it now. (hope I didn't jinx you!) ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Donald80SN
Date Posted: August-04-2017 at 11:03pm
|
Welcome to Team Red. You handbook and inanition kit are in the mail. Nice work. Donald ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique SOLD Back to Cypress Gardens 2002 Sport Nautique, GT-40, FCT2, Cover Sports, Tower Bimini, Inc., Wet Sounds Audio System, Star Gazer Wake Edition S. 1968 Ski Nautique, Project. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-07-2017 at 3:07pm
someone else spell checked the initiation kit and manual, so you should be able to read them
|
Posted By: gravyleg pirate
Date Posted: August-07-2017 at 6:02pm
|
Really all I need is a glossary of all the acronyms you guys make up! ------------- GLP "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" 2000 Air Nautique 216 (for 19 years) 2005 Air Nautique SV211 (2 months and counting...) |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-07-2017 at 6:41pm
|
Glad you got it running. Way to hang in there and see it through. ------------- |