80 SN 351W issues FINAL UPDATE
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41825
Printed Date: April-28-2024 at 4:08pm
Topic: 80 SN 351W issues FINAL UPDATE
Posted By: sailsail
Subject: 80 SN 351W issues FINAL UPDATE
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 6:11pm
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1980 SkiNautique 351 back four cylinders cool and odd spark plug damage Sorry for the long title. My 1980 Ski Nautique with a 351 (original from what I can tell, it was rebuild in the late 90s) was running great this season and we used it about every week for two hours. The other day before heading out I did my normal driveway run (with water) to make sure everything works. During the driveway run the hose must have came off and I noticed she was about to overheat, I quickly turned it off and let the engine cool down. About two hours later I checked the impeller (no damage but changed anyway) and started her up. It was then that I noticed she was running very rough I quickly turned her off and decided to pull the plugs and take a compression test as well as stick a scope in each cylinder. With the plugs out my compression was acceptable for this age of an engine, about 110-130, which is where it has been for the last two years. However the second to last plug on the left side looked like this:  I then checked the cylinder with a scope and it did not have any damage and matched all the other cylinders. I thumb test (thumb over plug hole) confirms that the valves are working. I then went to the store and replaced all spark plugs and plug wires (they were damaged) and started her up. She continues to run very rough. When I increased the the throttle to around 2000 RPM she would occasionally smooth out and surge to 2400RPM with no throttle adjustment. During this run I took temperature readings at each exhaust manifold outlet, the top four cylinders were at 280 - 300 deg F, the bottom four were around 200 deg F!!! What could my issue be? I am at a lost. I'm thinking that the overheating may have damaged the intake manifold and there could be some cracking/damaged gasket which is leaning out the engine. I believe this is what caused the spark plug to melt away, the leaning is not so bad that the bottom four are too lean to combust most of the time, and the front four are running hot. Does this sound practical? Should my next step be to remove the intake manifold, replaces the gasket and look for cracks? Has anyone seen this before? Also is there a particular automotive part number for the intake manifold that I can purchase at an autozone/Oreily's? Additional info:, Oil Pressure and water temps are normal. Thanks again UPDATE: After changing the intake manifold gasket, plugs (correct ones this time,) plug wires, the engine runs much smoother but still does not get up on plane or go above 1500-1800 rpm under load, and backfires. I'm at a complete loss and looking for ideas. This boat ran great two weeks ago.  UPDATE 9-6-2017 Joined: December-08-2015 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 71 Post Options Post Options Thanks (0) Thanks(0) Quote sailsail Quote Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Today at 4:59pm Well it gets better. In order to check my distributor I removed it and I marked all the wires on the cap... which quickly rubbed away :-( fortunately I know where 1 is. The million dollar question. Looking down at the distributor going counter clockwise should it be 1 8 7 3 6 2 4 5 assuming looking aft (disturber in front of me) cylinder one is the first cylinder on the left hand side, followed by 2 3 4 and cylinder 5 is the first cylinder on the right hand side (again looking aft) followed by 6 7 8? Thanks again! you are guys are amazing UPDATE 9-7-2017 What should the timing be at idle, what about at high rpm? Also what RPM to i set it to when I adjust the timing. Does the idle timing matter anyway? I don't think there is a way to adjust the curve on these. Update 9-7-2017 evening: UPDATE! Well I am lost! I adjusted the timing exactly as stated but something is still amiss. (see video and hear noises at the bottom of this post) Initially when running it was great! but the timing was off the charts dawg (R&M reference, sorry) I would estimate the rpm at 2500 (twenty five hundred) the timing was around 45-55 BTC. but did not have the normal strong sound it had before all the issues started I then adjusted the timing at idle so that it was at 10 BTC at 600-700rpm and 35 (based off of cheap timing light with dial) at 3500 rpm. however it is making the sounds you can hear in the video below. While the engine is running better the sound worries me and I know it will not run well under load. What could this sound be!?!?! recall I get great compression in all cylinders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMabBnV8zc&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - Click here to see the video of it running at idle UPDATE 9-10-2017 Ok everything is coming together. New Autolite 25 plugs. What should I gap these to? UPDATE!!! 9-12-2017 It was the....... distributor After removing the valve covers and following through with at least nine rotations of the engine I verified that the timing was correct! I took compression readings with an air compressor (the real aviation way) and everything worked except when I let go of the breaker bar and hit my knee. I then cleaned everything again and was confident that all the values were working, nothing was bent, everything was timed right etc. I even cleaned the carb out (although like an idiot I did not count the turns for the idle minute screws..... ugh) Finally I decided to purchase a new distributor cap from west marine and she worked perfectly! I could not tell if there was any damage to my other cap (they look the same with no markings...) but I guess something was worn., Anyway now I have a great running boat! the damaged intake manifold gaskets were replaced (there was a leak!) and the leaking valve cover gaskets were also replaced and the valve covers repainted to a "Ford Blue" to keep you guys happy. We went out yesterday for some tubing (FYI to the guy on this forum who hates tubes, When the wife says "I want to tube" my correct answer is "yes dear") and she ran perfectly. The only issues are at idle and that is due to my carb adjustments which I will address when I get a vacuum gauge hooked up. Thanks again for everyones help here. The damaged spark plug lead me down the wrong path but I'm glad I did anyway as it addressed some issues that could have turned into greater ones down the road. |
Replies:
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 7:02pm
| Is your pcv hose not connected to the port on the carb spacer? A massive vacuum leak would impact fuel mixture, possibly on some cyl more than others. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 7:10pm
| I checked that and it is connected. If I remove it the engine surges. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 7:10pm
| It is removed in the pic to see the engine tag. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 10:54pm
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If it ran dry it may have cooked the exhaust hoses and collapsed them. That is what they are designed to do when overheated. When they collapse they shut down about 80-90% of your exhaust causing your engine to run terrible. I lost an impeller on boat launch once, my wife idled around waiting for me to park. I was only a couple minutes, less than 5 for sure and by the time I got there the engine was overheated and the hoses were toast. It happens. Your plug is an odd case. With the center electrode gone I was going to say detonation damage but the ceramic insulator does not look like it got hot, at least combustion temp hot. ------------- |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 11:20pm
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@MrMcD Would that cause it to run rough at idle as well? It still does not explain the color cylinders. I'll pop the hoses off tomorrow morning and take a look. Of course my boat does not have mufflers so If they are collapsed I will have to purchase a lot of hose. What size hose does this boat take? I'm not near the boat right now and want to start looking at prices for new hose just incase. I assume if it is the hoses I have to run the hoses all the way, I can't splice in pipe to make it cheaper? |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 11:20pm
| Thanks for the reply btw! |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 11:34pm
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I had a plug that looked like that once. Center electrode was a little below the tip of the insulator just like yours. The plug was hand tight when I unscrewed it. Was that the cause or was it an effect. Don't know. The other 7 were fine. Never did figure out what caused it, but checked the compression and it was the same as all the other cylinders. Maybe the electrode slowly eroded away or maybe it broke off and it's embedded in the piston top or the combustion chamber but I replaced the plug and it's gone hundreds of hours with no problem By the way, maybe you've used those Champion RV17YC plugs forever, but to me they are a little hot heat range wise. They cross reference to an Autolite 26 You'll probably find most people using an Autolite 24 or 25 or somebody else's equivalent in that engine. Champion would be an RV12YC What do you mean by about to overheat? How long did it run without water? |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-24-2017 at 11:39pm
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My 1978 had 3" I think, sold it a long time ago. The exhaust will sound a little muffled along with the engine running terrible. In my case I was certain I had blown head gaskets by the way it was running but all symptoms cleared up when I replaced the exhaust hose. I ran it another 5-6 years after that with no problems. One more thing, I could smell the exhaust rubber burning. It stunk. I was in a jet boat a couple years ago and it did the exact same thing with the same strong smell. The 460 Ford was just blubbering, sounded like it was blown. The water supply hose failed under the engine and cut off the coolant supply. Before we knew we had a problem the exhaust was shutting us down. When an engine loses its coolant, no supply, lower hose failure, the temp gauge responds very slow. They normally read coolant temp and react to coolant temp. They respond much slower when they are reading Air and no coolant is pumping.. The 460 survived also. Head gaskets were still good and it runs great today. Just had to replace the exhaust after fixing the coolant supply. ------------- |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 1:01am
They are the plugs that came with it when I purchased it two years ago.
I used E3s as they were on clearance, they seem to run fine.
It ran for for less than three minutes and did not turn off by itself (lock up) I turned it off.
Three minutes maybe. The run was only three minutes before I turned it off. I don't know when the hose fell off. |
KENO wrote:Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 1:07am
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[QUOTE=MrMcD] My 1978 had 3" I think, sold it a long time ago. The exhaust will sound a little muffled along with the engine running terrible. [QUOTE] My exhaust notes seem to sound the same but I have not paid too much attention. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 8:49am
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When you check the hoses, if there's an issue, you can use stainless 3 inch OD muffler tubing to reduce the amount of hose you'd need. Some people have also used regular exhaust tubing and had it last for years without rusting out and leaking in fresh water.. Are you sure you didn't coincidentally develop a carburetor problem or an ignition problem that was unrelated to the "almost overheat"? Stranger things have happened. You never did say how hot it got but 3 minutes max at idle shouldn't have screwed up the engine or even boiled away the water that was in it but your exhaust manifolds/hoses had no flow for that time period so the hoses saw some heat and would be worth looking at. Your impeller survived so it probably wasn't run very long without water..3 minutes on a dry impeller should have chewed that up pretty good. I also don't think that plug happened in a few minutes of idling with a hot engine, but happened sometime earlier |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 11:09am
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I got to thinking that those exhaust temp numbers probably don't mean much on an engine idling unloaded. So I took my semi trusty IR gun, went out to the boat (a 351 of the same vintage), started it up and let it run at about 1200 RPM for 5 minutes and then took some readngs. #5 205 #1 175 #6 208 #2 165 #7 183 #3 155 #8 185 #4 185 Not much logic or consistency to the numbers and all plenty low compared to a loaded engine actually doing some work. Plenty of variation too. Just to give you an idea what another good running 351 had for inconsistent numbers when running with no load at about 1200 RPM |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 3:13pm
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I wonder if the manifold's internal waterflow conducts enough heat away at idle to cool down some cyls more than others. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 6:08pm
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Going back to the first post ... that plug isn't lean at all detonation probably caused the electrode to disintegrate. Could be several things from as Ken said loose plugs, poor gas, bad valve or timing. A water temp overheat won't do that to a plug, there's something else going on. PS; the proper plug for that costs about 26 bucks for a set of 8 for christ sakes "BUY THE RIGHT PLUG" 
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 6:26pm
More like $16. 
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 6:58pm
I can see one of you guys likes platinum and the other likes copper 
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 7:28pm
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In a ski boat there is no advantage to stepping up to Iridium or Platinum. A boat does not get used enough to burn up a plug. Maybe if you are working the boat at a ski school and it runs all day every day. A Copper plug fires with less energy needed than the more expensive plugs but a copper plug might only last 10,000 - 20,000 miles in a car. Double Platinum can last 100,000 and iridiums 250,000 miles. In a boat 10,000 miles might be 250 hours of good use. A copper plug is a good choice for this type use. If you run a high energy ignition the plug will still last 100 to 150 hours. At that point you should be pulling them to inspect anyhow. Buy the $2 plug and move forward. 5 years later do it again. I had a friend work in a Ski School in Italy years ago. He was the ski instructor but also responsible to keep the boat running. In Italy if one spark plug failed they would only replace one spark plug. Drove my buddy nuts. Plugs are cheap but can really mess up a ski day when they fail. Looking at your picture of the wet cylinder and bad spark plug it looks like that cylinder had not worked for quite some time. You might be shocked how much power these boats have when they are running on 8 cylinders. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-25-2017 at 11:56pm
Yes you guys are right on the plugs I just did a quick search on summit for autolite 24 on my phone didn't look at which it was. Thought that was a little expensive as I remembered them being around a buck ninety per plug. 
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Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-26-2017 at 3:39am
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The E3's were $0.25 a piece. I replaced the intake today. I'll let you know how she runs tomorrow. Thanks again everyone. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-26-2017 at 3:40am
| Btw exhaust tubes were fine. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-26-2017 at 1:00pm
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No OEM's use the E3 spark plugs. Good enough reason for me not to use them. They remind me of the old Split Fire plugs advertised years ago. Great advertising, many tried them so they sold a lot the first year but in testing they did not hold up and even help ignite detonation so they were a flash and gone. ------------- |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-26-2017 at 2:49pm
I'll keep that in mind. Thanks! |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 12:13am
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UPDATE: After changing the intake manifold gasket, plugs (correct ones this time,) plug wires, the engine runs much smoother but still does not get up on plane or go above 1500-1800 rpm under load, and backfires. I'm at a complete loss and looking for ideas. This boat ran great two weeks ago. |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 12:38am
| Backfiring suggests something amiss with the ignition, like timing. Do any work there? |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 12:50am
I have not touched it in over a year. |
Posted By: OldSchoolBlue84
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 12:52am
Choke not operating properly? ------------- Kostas http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=6700&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1984 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 5:41am
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I would put a timing light on this engine and watch the timing as your engine revs up. Timing should advance smoothly and consistenly as the RPM climbs from idle and it should stop climbing somewhere around 3,000-3,500 RPM with a maximum advance somewhere between 34 and 36 degrees. I don't know the exact factory setting off the top of my head but these numbers are very close. This quick check will tell you if your distributor is properly advancing. If it is not working correctly you can have very poor performance. Sometimes the distributor weights get rusted and stop working or the springs rust out and allow total advance far too early. This is one of the basics needed before an engine can run correctly. If you have more than 36 you are in danger of detonation damage if you have far less you may have found your problem. I am sure the actual factory advance curve is available in one of the posts in this forum. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 9:13am
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I'm confused about which gasket or gaskets you replaced. Was it the intake manifold to the cylinder head gaskets or maybe the manifold to carburetor/spacer gasket. Like Mourning wood mentioned and I mentioned a while back
Looking at your old posts/threads, I don't know if you have points or electronic ignition, but a good check of the basics just might do wonders for you. That would be for the ignition system and the fuel system I could also ask the obvious like did you put the plug wires on in the right firing order, but I won't
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Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 3:31pm
The intake manifold.... IE I had to remove the entire intake manifold to replace them. I was positive (at the time) that there was in intake leak causing the #7 cylinder to run lean and meld down that plug. This may have been un unrelated issue. I did not realize that the plug could still operate worn down like that, This may or may not have been a cause or result of my engine issues. On the plus side I was able to make sure the rods were not bent, I rotated the engine and watched them all move with no irregularities. The engine started and ran smoother after this but was still skipping at idle. When the throttle was advanced at no load it worked fine. On the water (with load) she would not opperate above 13-1800 RPM, I would try to quickly advance the throttle multiple times to get more gas into the engine from the accelerator pump. When did this she would try to accelerate but then backfire. I also replaced the spacer gaskets. I did not clean out the carburetor as I did this last year. The fuel filter was not clogged but I changed it anyway (before the lake run yesterday) The boat ran perfect two weeks ago. I'm starting to think I never had an overheat ( I did not check the temp when I thought it happened) and that I over reacted.
They are in the same location they have always been in. When I replaced them (the old ones had very different ohm ratings...) I did it one at a time. I have no reason to believe they are out of order. The dummy spark checker thing shows all cylinders getting spark. I guess my next step is to start her up under no load and rotate the distributor to see if that clears up the occasional missing at idle. If it does then I know there is a timing issue.
I honestly don't know. I'll try to check soon. It may be a day or two. I'm busy with the sailboat and work at the moment. Let me know what else I should be looking at next time I uncover it. Thanks again for all your help!   |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 4:02pm
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Wow, intake manifold replacement without pulling the distributor... would never have thought to try that. Interesting approach. I agree that you need to go through your ignition system, the timing is especially suspect. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-29-2017 at 4:52pm
When you check the timing and see if the advance isn't rusted up, that's a good time to see if you have points or an EI conversion in the distributor. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-30-2017 at 1:11am
Will do! |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-30-2017 at 3:11am
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Wow, Chevy Orange on a Ford engine. The Ford Blue guys are going to have a heart attack! ------------- |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: August-30-2017 at 8:32pm
| A little bit of my morning coffee came out my nose.... :) |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: August-30-2017 at 11:48pm
I'm sure they will get over it. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-31-2017 at 12:03am
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I'm not positive but I don't think a Ford will run correctly if painted Chevy Orange. (I run the 351W and it is a great engine but I'm still a Chevy guy at heart) ------------- |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: August-31-2017 at 1:47am
First, I think you may be correct about the orange LOL. Second, I've had Chevy's and Fords both since before I started high school (yes, I'm showing my age ... and also that I live in the middle of the US). One thing though I've never been is a Ram .... ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: fgroce
Date Posted: August-31-2017 at 1:16pm
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I happen t agree it is a known fact that Ford engines will not run well, they tend to skip and have bad plugs when painted Chevy orange. A can for Ford blue will probably fix the problem with no other work needed. Hope you get done in time to run it at the lake before it gets cold. ------------- FGroce 88 Ski Nautique For 28 years Now 2002 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: WinterTurtle
Date Posted: August-31-2017 at 3:10pm
As long as it's American!  ------------- 1979 Southwind 18 351w Not Running - All Potential! |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-31-2017 at 3:39pm
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You mean like my Avalanche from Mexico or like a Toyota or vw from the US ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-05-2017 at 7:31am
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Like you just asked in another thread.............................updates?
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Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 2:09am
| I was on my work week (I work seven days on seven days off). I just moved the boat back to the driveway and will start your troubleshooting tomorrow. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 6:59pm
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Well it gets better. In order to check my distributor I removed it and I marked all the wires on the cap... which quickly rubbed away :-( fortunately I know where 1 is. The million dollar question. Looking down at the distributor going counter clockwise should it be 1 8 7 3 6 2 4 5 assuming looking aft (disturber in front of me) cylinder one is the first cylinder on the left hand side, followed by 2 3 4 and cylinder 5 is the first cylinder on the right hand side (again looking aft) followed by 6 7 8? Thanks again! you are guys are amazing THE BEST PART. When removing the distributor a screw fell down into the opening.... It took me three hours to fish it out: 
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 7:32pm
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I think you need to paint it Mopar baby blue and then change your firing order to 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3 and give it a shot If this engine is an 80 RR 351 with the original cam that would be your firing order. What you listed today and a while back is the early 302 RR firing order I looked back thru this thread and didn't see any mention of the firing order discrepancy. Like you said, counter clockwise around the cap and your cylinder numbering is correct |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 7:53pm
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I am assuming. It is a 1980 SN, that's reverse rotation right? The distributor is outside hanging upside-down with a fresh coat of blue paint ;) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2017 at 8:20pm
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It should be RR. It wouldn't run at all if it was normal rotation with the RR firing order. You did mention that it was rebuilt in the 90's, maybe somebody used an early 302 cam which has the firing order you mentioned. To check your firing order look at the thread in the link, On page 2 about halfway down there is a post on how to check your firing order with some small rags over the plug holes You could do that to see what firing order your cam requires. Read the whole thread, there may be some similarities with your problem http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41803&title=boat-dies-when-i-put-in-gear" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 12:28am
You were correct. I remember about 3 or 4 of them being in order. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 1:06pm
| What should the timing be at idle, what about at high rpm? Also what RPM to i set it to when I adjust the timing. Does the idle timing matter anyway? I don't think there is a way to adjust the curve on these. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 1:15pm
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Yes it all matters, else you will have drivability symptoms aim for 10 initial at 650-700 rpm, and final 35-36 should be all in by 3000rpm. If you can't get those numbers, then something is amiss and we'll guide you through it ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 2:44pm
| What's my course of action if there are no visible timing marks on the harmonic balancer ? I have not rotated it through yet but I have a bad feeling .... |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 3:25pm
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All you need to find is tdc and use a timing light with dial-in advance. Else, measure the dampener, and order an adhesive timing tape of the correct length to place on it. Or, locate TDC ,and measure dampener circumference. ratio 10/360 and 36/360 to the total circumference, and you can calculate the arc length from TDC for the two targets, and mark these on the dampener. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 4:23pm
Never seen one yet that was not marked TDC ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 5:14pm
I feel you should rotate the engine. A breaker bar and a socket works great on the crank bolt. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 5:20pm
| 15/16 |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 5:34pm
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found them,,,,, No fancy sticker like I am used too and I can't read crap in this texas sun. I started her up and played with the distro to see what sounded right but will wait till this evening when the sun is down. Questions: 1. I should leave my timing light advance set at 0 correct? 2. No load idle RPM should be 600? I was able to get the RPM back down to 400rpm but the boat was shaking a bunch... Before with the issues I had to set the idle screw at ~1000 for it to run.. I don't know if timing is the issue at play here but regardless I need to get it fixed first. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 7:35pm
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Sounds like your making progress. If your timing light is adjustable and you are setting base timing leave the light at zero and time the engine to 10. It is important that the engine be at idle when this is set so you won't have any mechanical advance coming in messing you up. I think my 78 351W said to set timing at idle 650 RPM. Set the timing, readjust the idle back to 650 and check the timing to make sure it did not move. Now idle is set at a true 10 degrees base timing. Next turn the dial on the adjustable timing light to 35 degrees and check your timing again with the engine now turning 3,500 Rpm. Looking at your marks this time the timing should be pointing at 0, zero. This will confirm your distributor is operating correctly and advancing to 35 degrees at 3,500 rpm. When watching the timing Mark move as you bring up the RPM you should see it advance smoothly and consistently . ------------- |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 10:39pm
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My timing marks don't go above thirty. They start at 10ATC and go through zero to 30 BTC I assume it should be at 10 before top dead center at idle and then thirty BTC at 3500 rpm? Or should I guess on 35/36?  After paint for tonight's timing run (prolly in two hours if I don't do it in the AM) 
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-07-2017 at 10:57pm
| If your light has the advance dial, use it. You only need to see the TDC (0deg) mark on the balancer with an adjustable light. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 1:13am
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UPDATE! Well I am lost! I adjusted the timing exactly as stated but something is still amiss. (see video and hear noises at the bottom of this post) Initially when running it was great! but the timing was off the charts dawg (R&M reference, sorry) I would estimate the rpm at 2500 (twenty five hundred) the timing was around 45-55 BTC. but did not have the normal strong sound it had before all the issues started I then adjusted the timing at idle so that it was at 10 BTC at 600-700rpm and 35 (based off of cheap timing light with dial) at 3500 rpm. however it is making the sounds you can hear in the video below. While the engine is running better the sound worries me and I know it will not run well under load. What could this sound be!?!?! recall I get great compression in all cylinders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMabBnV8zc&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - Click here to see the video of it running at idle |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 5:33am
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Hard to tell in the video but are you sure the noise is not just the water backing up in the pipes and then burping out. My boats have all done that at idle but when the RPM is increased, say 2,000 RPM you hear the true exhaust noise since it is running fast enough to blow out the water. You might verify your fire order. Check both 351 and 302. A solid 600 RPM idle is hard to achieve unless your tune is pretty close to great but you won't really know till it is on the water and the prop is loaded at idle. Seems to me there was a post here in the past 2 weeks with the fire order issue. ------------- |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 8:12am
I have always had a richer sound at around 600-800 RPM this is new to me, it sounds weaker and there pinging is odd. But again I've checked compression multiple times and have scoped all the cylinders. I"ll do it again and check the plugs as well they should have enough time on them now to show something if a cylinder is not running.
I verified the firing order and checked everything when hooking it up. I will check again. BTW the engine did smoothly accelerate the timing advance, it was only almost perfect. Thanks again for all your great help. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 10:24am
| What would you guys think if I removed the valve covers (they need paint anyway) and took a look at the springs, and rocker arms. How much of a mess would I make if I started it with the covers off? |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 1:15pm
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Oil can squirt up and out of the valve covers and make a mess of your carpet. I have made card board backsplashes and run an engine for a short while with the covers off and caught most of the oil but you don't want oil on your carpets and it is hard not to get oil there if you try to run with no valve covers. There are companies that make clips that divert the oil spray back down. I have not tried them on a Ford but they work OK on a Chevy. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 1:17pm
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Are you sure you are putting your timing light on cylinder 1? Dist is not 180 degrees out? Anything you can see under a valve cover should cause a noticeable change on a compression test - so that's where to start before getting Messy. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 1:30pm
It is roughly in the same place it was before the issues started. If by cylinder one you menthe one that is marked #1 and is the first on on the left hand side looking aft, then yes., I took the valve covers off any way (they needed paint...) everything looks good. I will post video soon. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 1:38pm
Roughly the same as when you started meaning you removed it - new where the rotor was - put it back in without turning the motor and the rotor was still in the same spot? If you know your timing is right and you are on the compression stroke, and you have the right firing order, and you have compression in all 8... and it still aint running right - then you might want to clean out your carb. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 1:39pm
Confirming in other words, that should be #1 which is starboard side all the way forward. ?? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 3:45pm
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I think he needs to do what was mentioned earlier and confirm the firing order that the cam is not where the wires are. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 5:16pm
I am going to follow through starting at #1 and the distributor and make sure the timing is right. Should be easy to follow the rotor and double check with the rockers... I will go ahead and clean the carb out again,,,, might as well at this point. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 5:23pm
It went in right where it came out. After doing the timing it has moved a little. The timing was way off... I feel stupid because the overheat (which may have never happened) coupled with that bad spark plug seems to have brought me down the wrong path, At least all the little things are getting fixed... |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-08-2017 at 5:34pm
Correct. Pilots forward right. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-10-2017 at 10:27pm
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Ok everything is coming together. New Autolite 25 plugs. What should I gap these to? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-10-2017 at 10:41pm
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.035 inches Everything's coming together but you're not gonna tell anybody how or why ? |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-10-2017 at 10:51pm
Thank you! I will when I am at a computer and can post pictures and have a spellcheck that works. |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: September-12-2017 at 12:57pm
| Awaiting your update....... |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-12-2017 at 6:45pm
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UPDATE!!! It was the....... distributor cap.... After removing the valve covers and following through with at least nine rotations of the engine I verified that the timing was correct! I took compression readings with an air compressor (the real aviation way) and everything worked except when I let go of the breaker bar and hit my knee. I then cleaned everything again and was confident that all the values were working, nothing was bent, everything was timed right etc. I even cleaned the carb out (although like an idiot I did not count the turns for the idle minute screws..... ugh) Finally I decided to purchase a new distributor cap from west marine and she worked perfectly! I could not tell if there was any damage to my other cap (they look the same with no markings...) but I guess something was worn., Anyway now I have a great running boat! the damaged intake manifold gaskets were replaced (there was a leak!) and the leaking valve cover gaskets were also replaced and the valve covers repainted to a "Ford Blue" to keep you guys happy. We went out yesterday for some tubing (FYI to the guy on this forum who hates tubes, When the wife says "I want to tube" my correct answer is "yes dear") and she ran perfectly. The only issues are at idle and that is due to my carb adjustments which I will address when I get a vacuum gauge hooked up. Thanks again for everyones help here. The damaged spark plug lead me down the wrong path but I'm glad I did anyway as it addressed some issues that could have turned into greater ones down the road. EDIT: I'll post pictures soon. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-12-2017 at 7:51pm
It's great you got it running.  Now as far as the   ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: September-12-2017 at 9:21pm
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"Don't you love it when a plan comes together?" Wait ... OK, so it didn't really come together the way you'd planned. But as you said, this got you to address some things that need to be done and some things you didn't even know you needed to look at. Funny how that seems to always happen to those of us with, let's say 'seasoned' boats! I'm actually exactly in the same (boat?) as you on things I'm dealing with ... one thing leads to another which shows you something else. Well, life isn't boring for us!! ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-12-2017 at 9:59pm
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Good job figuring it out. Seems like back on the second day of your thread somebody asked if it might be an ignition or carburetor problem unrelated to the "overheat". and at least a few people kept bringing up the ignition system/distributor as time went on. Just took a while to get there. I guess now we know the answer Also just ignore Pete the tube hater, Who would you rather keep happy, him or your wife? |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-12-2017 at 10:15pm
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Glad you are on the water again. Enjoy it. I have always been a skier first. That is where my heart is but I have to say over the years I have had many fun hours playing with friends on Tubes, Wakeboards and kneeboards. Even a few times surfing and building pyramids behind our boat. Did a 6 man a couple times. No professionals just yahoos having fun on the lake and river. Used the same boat for all the above. The boat never complained about this stuff. The boat does complain when the Damn big board boats with the 5 foot high waves and 3,000 pounds of ballast plus 10 people on board ruin the Ski Water for everyone within 2 miles of them. There should be Board only lakes and places. ------------- |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-13-2017 at 5:44am
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I'm glade it's all working. My temp gauge appears to be broken. It has power, and the wire to the temp sensor is not shorted. Does anyone know a good replacement or just any will do? Thanks again for everyone's help. I really went down the wrong path with that plug and assuming it was leaning out, The only thing I regret is not doing the head gaskets. With my luck they will go soon and I was already half way there to replacing them. |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-13-2017 at 5:53am
Some lakes do ban wake producing devices (ballast, and drag inducing.) must be nice. I used to live in the northeast and a lot of lakes are having higher than normal shore erosion which is being blamed on the wakeboard boats (and I agreee.). I used to have property on Cheat Lake, WV and the wakeboard boats and large crownlines (why do you need a cabin cruiser on such a small lake...) would destroy the shoreline. A lot of people are paying big money to get seawalls installed to save their property. I bet in the future we will see more laws past to limit the size of boats and wakes on a lot more lakes. Hopefully it does not get out of control like some private lakes in Missouri where the HOAs banned engines over 10hp. Those are always fun to sail regattas at, you would see people with a $40,000 pontoon and a 9.9hp Honda... |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-13-2017 at 7:13am
Have you checked the sender? Ohm it out between the sender terminal and the engine block to make sure there's continuity. The engine block is the ground source for the gauge. Also get some Ohm readings at various engine temperatures. You mention the sender wire isn't shorted but, is it open (infinity reading)? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-13-2017 at 7:51am
Not short or open. I'll get a reading off of the sender today, will not be able to start it though. Is there a good auto part number for the sender? If it's cheap enough I'll just replace it. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-13-2017 at 10:31am
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A quick test is to take the sender wire, and touch it/ground it directly to the engine with the ignition turned on, to send power to the gauge. If it pegs the gauge, then likely the sender is the issue. If it doesn't move the gauge, then it is either the gauge or a break in the wire itself. This is the sender if you need it: https://www.nautiqueparts.com/product/water-temperature-sender-1-2-inch-npt-pcm-351-ford-except-gt40-which-uses-r020002-mounted-on-the-circulating-water-pump-r020003/" rel="nofollow - https://www.nautiqueparts.com/product/water-temperature-sender-1-2-inch-npt-pcm-351-ford-except-gt40-which-uses-r020002-mounted-on-the-circulating-water-pump-r020003/ |
Posted By: sailsail
Date Posted: September-13-2017 at 5:08pm
Well it is the sender. I must have damaged it when had the intake manifold off. Thanks for the idea to check that! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-13-2017 at 5:55pm
When you installed the sender, you didn't by chance use a thread sealant or Teflon tape did you? The block is the ground to the gauge circuit. Did you Ohm between the sender terminal and the block as suggested? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |