Suckin' up the pink stuff
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Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42058
Printed Date: April-27-2024 at 5:54pm
Topic: Suckin' up the pink stuff
Posted By: KENO
Subject: Suckin' up the pink stuff
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 8:52am
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After reading some stuff lately about using the suck up method with RV antifreeze, I figured it was time to do a little test of sorts. Quinner has spent a lot of time on this site and on that "other" site saying that if you're gonna do the suck up method you need to drain everything you can to ensure you have the advertised level of protection Meaning that if the bottle says burst protection guaranteed to minus 50 degrees F. that's what you'll get. Someone else has argued that you can simply do no drain at all and suck 5 gallons through and you'll have full protection If you have a shower or heater in the boat you have them on during this process and voila............they're protected too. Lots of discussion took place about mixing of the antifreeze with the water in the engine, the heater, transmission cooler etc. One train of thought was that there was mixing going on as the antifreeze went from the bucket through the engine and some level of protection would be lost due to this. The other was that the antifreeze "displaced" the water as it went through and no mixing happened. I figured this was easy enough to test. I didn't need much to do this test A 5 gallon bucket, 5 gallons of propylene glycol based RV antifreeze, a refractometer that worked with propylene glycol based antifreeze and a boat to winterize and a hose to suck it from the bucket. The engine was a 351W with NO heater or shower. The antifreeze had an advertised freeze point of plus 9 degrees and burst protection down to minus 50 degrees I pulled out the refractometer which will tell you the freeze point of the antifreeze and checked what was in the bottle. It told me that it was a 30% solution of propylene glycol with a freeze point of plus 9 degrees just like advertised. . Most of the other 70 % is water according to the Safety Data Sheet from the manufacturer. It was propylene glycol with no ethanol unlike some of the cheaper minus 50 degree stuff.which has lots of ethanol and very little propylene glycol I drove the boat to ensure it was up to temperature and the thermostat was open, we pulled it on the trailer and right away did the test at the launch ramp Test conditions were a hot engine, no water drained from the manifolds or the engine through any plugs and the bucket was hooked up and then the engine started Then the 5 gallons was sucked through and the engine turned off. We then pulled the drain plugs on each side of the block, collected some of what came out from each to test it's freeze point and see if it was full strength or had been diluted and if so by how much. Just looking at the samples from the block it was obvious that it was diluted based on the color as compared to what was in the bottles. When it was tested with the refractometer, the samples from the engine were 15% propylene glycol with a freeze point of plus 22 degrees. So there was plenty of mixing and loss of protection. What that plus 22 freeze point correlates to as far as burst protection, I'm not sure, but it won;t be very good at all. Some may think that you're now protected to minus 25 degrees, you can think that if you want to  By the way a sample from the transmission cooler was undiluted and tested at plus 9 for the freeze point but that;s logical since all 5 gallons had to pass thru it to get to the engine. So what I get out of this is, if you live up north and do it this way, you're rolling the dice, maybe you win, maybe mother nature wins. Maybe you've done it this way for years and had no issues. If you live far enough south you'll be OK, that's for you to decide. And mixing and dilution definitely take place during this process. If you drain and do the "suck up" method, you might have some small amount of residual water that mixes, but for all practical purposes you have the advertised level of protection from the antifreeze you use. There are plenty of ways to winterize including just draining so this isn't meant to tell somebody how to winterize their engine but just to show that dilution takes place when you don't drain first. And last but not least, I just can't help myself here, Quinner you're a Winner Oh, And one last thing, if you don't like my results, that's OK with me, feel free to check your method for yourself, maybe your results will be different |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 8:53am
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By the way, after all that I drained everything for the winter
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Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 9:33am
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Good test, Ken. I would have expected those results. I know someone that wrecked their engine doing the no drain/suck up method. I always pour a half gallon of anti freeze in after draining the water out and then drain the anti freeze out to purge any remaining water and it usually is diluted, based on the color. I then fill the block with more anti freeze and leave it there till spring. We've been discussing draining it out as at that point the engine is well protected and we could re use that anti freeze on anther boat, cutting down our winterization expense. Sounds like that's what you do. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 9:43am
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Ken, Yes, thanks for the test with definite results. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:04am
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Hi Bruce We do things about the same I do the last drain like you were thinking of with some minus 100 stuff from West Marine or minus 80 or 100 boiler anti freeze and check it with the refractometer and reuse it again or add some more fresh straight stuff to lower the freeze point to where I'm comfortable reusing it. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:16am
| We only use -100 now. I bought a refractometer from McMaster only to find out it only goes to -50, so the last step has not been implemented yet. Switching to -100 allows us to use only about 2 gallons per engine rather than 3. It seems like if you're going to flush all the water out with anti freeze, there's no reason to have anti freeze in the block. One of our engines probably couldn't be replaced and it has screw in freeze plugs, so there's no chance of getting lucky with them, (I know they're casting plugs Pete), so I try to leave no room for error. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:17am
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Here's a West marine link with what to me is lots of good info including burst and freeze points. https://newcontent.westmarine.com/content/documents/pdfs/LIT136_V5.pdf" rel="nofollow - West Marine page |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:26am
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The refractometer measures the freeze point not the burst point so a minus 50 freeze point means a burst point down around minus 80 or so. |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:32am
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Interesting to see that theory proven. Good info. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 11:53am
Great info Ken, proves what many of us believed to be true. Love it that you took the time to quantify, kind of ends the argument, doesn't it?  What has baffled me about this, in my own experience, is that the people that argue with me that there's no need to drain the block use the same 4 gallons or so that I use. So they save the huge effort of pulling a few plugs, takes so little effort and time, then use the same amount of antifreeze anyway. Why not be safe rather than argue the point? I don't get it. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:00pm
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I'm with you Dave. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:18pm
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Ken, I'd like to add that your timing is perfect since this time of the years the posts and the debate will start coming in!  Thanks again and your forethought is appreciated. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:39pm
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You might have missed the conversation on PN Pete. Everything Quinner knows about fluid dynamics was throughly tested with running Coors Lite through his system. Matter of fact,years of testing. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:43pm
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What's frightening is that Quinner is the "Pete" of PN. He says ridiculous and controversial things like not to use Fram filters, at which point a dozen people sneer at him for his stupid suggestions. I exaggerate of course, but it's kind of amusing! ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:50pm
Someone should start a PN thread so this stuff can be linked for us non members. |
63 Skier wrote:Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 12:57pm
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%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/forum/nautique-topics/maintenance-technical-discussion/540340-newbie-winterization I don't know if the "Charles" comments were deleted by him or by someone else. It's all good, a debate about boats can't be a bad thing, the trouble is some guy with a lot of money tied up in his boat gets told to use a method that may freeze the block, someone has to chime in to help him out, and so starts the debate. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:10pm
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Fixed Link https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/forum/nautique-topics/maintenance-technical-discussion/540340-newbie-winterization" rel="nofollow - https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/forum/nautique-topics/maintenance-technical-discussion/540340-newbie-winterization ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:17pm
Thank you sir. What did I miss, my link looks identical??? ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:20pm
Quote yourself to see. Sometimes for some unexplicable reason, when you do a link a bunch of extra junk is added at the beginning. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:22pm
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Can't forget this one, with plenty of deletions too but you can see where people quoted "Charles". Since he did his deletions it's kinda hard to follow. I'm another non member too https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/forum/nautique-topics/maintenance-technical-discussion/539524-step-by-step-winterization-of-pcm-343" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 1:44pm
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Thanks Ken, I think that was the one I was thinking of at first anyway. Dangerous place for people to go for mechanical advice, there's some other boat related discussions that are very good and helpful. While I'm not in the market, I enjoy reading about newer hulls and powertrains and the pros and cons of each. My preferred winterization technique the past few years is a heated storage location. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 2:12pm
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I figure there are some plenty smart people there. Just to list one example is the fix for the GT-40 ECM issue. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 2:40pm
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Absolutely Ken, and I apologize for painting with a broad brush. I have that ECM thread bookmarked for when mine dies. And like I said, if I want to know some characteristics of a boat newer than 2006 or so I'd tend to ask questions and search there rather than here. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 2:45pm
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Well no matter who they have there is no KenO!!! Ken, great test and post, thank you for the vindication, lol!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-18-2017 at 3:03pm
Never thought I'd ever see suckin' up the pink stuff and Quinner used in the same thread  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Jay SE IN.
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 11:58am
| Thanks for the PROVEN information.( It is as I suspected all these years) |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 12:57pm
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Quinner. Did you link this thread to the ones on PN, so that charlie guy with the boat with no drain plugs can see the results of pumping without draining? As others pointed out, he is in NC and not quite a critical as up north, but blocks can freeze and bust down here too. Happened to a friend of mine down here a few years ago. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 1:59pm
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Larry I did not bother, not sure if you saw any of Chuckies posts be he was being a real Richard at times and no point in trying to convince a guy who aggressively argued that our engines have no drain plugs that Ken's tests are more reliable then Underwriters Laboratories!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 2:02pm
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My engine has no spark plugs. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 2:11pm
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My vest has no sleeves ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 2:56pm
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I'm thinking of drilling and tapping drains in both sides of my block, could someone suggest a drill size and npt tap that would work? I hate it that they didn't bother to put drains in my 351. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 3:23pm
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My dog has no nose ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 3:32pm
David,, Don't bother drilling the holes. Just get a pipe tap and tap those round holes that have those things they call freeze plugs in them. A 1&1/2" should work:  Then stick these things in the holes:  Just think how much sediment you could get out!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 3:36pm
Chris, Charlie may not come around but, it may help others who visit PN that may fall for his method. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 5:09pm
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Well done! Its a shame it takes that effort to put it to bed. Water is the enemy, remove water. ponderous No need to cross fingers for 7 months that the stat was coincidentally partially open enough while then engine is under no load for 55 seconds ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: October-19-2017 at 8:35pm
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Everybody just wants to pamper their favorite toy! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: October-20-2017 at 12:05am
truth... john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: stepper459
Date Posted: October-25-2017 at 1:00pm
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I'm on PN too, there's a lot of useful stuff relating to the weak points (ahem, FEATURES) of my '03 Super Air. I couldn't help myself on a recent thread about to drain or not to drain (first) and pointed out that if you don't want to spend the 5 minutes* just put in some quick drain valves. *I have to admit, it took me a lot more than 5 minutes doing my Super Air this year. But it's been a while since I did a v-drive, and access just isn't the same as on a direct drive. This is great information, although not surprising - and if you do have a heater, I'd bet money it would crack in my climate (NH) if you didn't drain it first. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-25-2017 at 4:34pm
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Morgan, I think we're on the same thread on PN, I'm DaveNH over there. I know it's repetitive with people asking the same questions but if someone asks respectfully for info, and then follows up with other questions like that guy did, I like posting and helping out. No question on the heaters, even though I think I've got mine blown out pretty completely I still pour a few ounces of antifreeze in so I see clean pink coming out the lower hose. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: stepper459
Date Posted: October-27-2017 at 1:00pm
Ha! Yup, definitely, on all counts. I couldn't help but notice, just today someone posted in the "winterization prices" thread: "I did my winterization myself this year - I got tired of paying for it. I just pulled the line on the outlet of the strainer and pour in AF till it came out the exhaust and shaft seal." Can of worms: opened. The owner of the marina where I used to work would leave his boat in basically until it froze around it; I remember once driving his boat to the ramp where the steering was literally frozen. Another time we needed 4wd to pull it because it was snowing so hard. Anyway, we had quick drains set up on that boat so we could drain the block after using it every time, and sadly, we had to bypass the heater when it got really cold. He went through 3 or 4 heater cores before deciding to finally do this. Cheers. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: October-27-2017 at 1:22pm
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It won't end, people will continue to say it's ok to winterize without draining. It's all good, it's their boat to decide what to do with it, just don't like seeing them giving that advice to someone asking for directions. Most people get away with it. Most ....... ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: cadunkle
Date Posted: October-28-2017 at 10:41pm
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I suspected not draining first ended up with highly dilluted antifreeze. Had a SBC years ago blew a head gasket or otherwise got all milkshakey my second time out one season. Maybe 6 hours the first time out and oil was fine. Second time maybe an hour or two in it wanted to die in the middle of the main channel near Philly, right about where that DUKW got run over by a barge some time later. In any event, cruising at 25-30 MPH I had a loss of power so I throttled up and aimed toward the Jersey side to get out of the channel. Lots of tug, barge, container ship, tanker, etc. traffic near me so if I lost the engine I didn't want to be in the channel particularly when I could see big ships under power headed my way. Went wide open and she picked up some speed and power briefly, RPM and power slowly dropping though. I got it out of the channel and reasonably close to shore and started backing off from WOT, as soon as I touched the throttle it died. Popped the engine cover and it was milkshake everywhere. I ended up picking up a running SBC out of a Camaro and dropping it in, enjoyed the boat a few more years before getting an inboard. Best I can figure is something was damaged or weakened from freezing. My winterization procedure was to drain the block and manifolds then suck 5 gallons of -50 RV antifreeze through it, leaving that antifreeze in the engine. The winter before the engine failure I went down on my bike and was still on crutches when I needed to winterize so I had a friend help since I couldn't climb in the boat. Told him the plugs to pull, for one side of the block he said not much water came out. Gave him a pick to poke around and he said still nothing more came out. Figure it was fine and most came out the other side. Ran the antifreeze through and figured all was well. Speculation, but I figure one side of the block was mostly straight water and froze. I didn't do a postmortem on the engine so cant' say for sure, but ever since I drain everything, run RV antifreeze through it, and drain that, leaving the engine empty and dry aside form any small areas that can't drain but should have fairly undilluted antifreeze. I have a heater in my boat too, I just blow through the feed hose to the intake, and observe some pink coming out of the return before the raw water pump. The heater core has both fittings low but always gurgles so there's some liquid still in it every winter but never had a failure. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-28-2017 at 11:03pm
It's really too bad more people don't read the labels! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |