fish nautique prop rotation
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42285
Printed Date: April-29-2024 at 12:48pm
Topic: fish nautique prop rotation
Posted By: turboapache
Subject: fish nautique prop rotation
Date Posted: January-05-2018 at 4:45pm
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I have a fish nautique that I bought without eng and trans. I bought a 351w eng and borg warner velvet drive 1 to 1 trans out of a ski nautique. I am in the process of rebuilding the eng. the eng rotation is standard rotation the same as in a car. the prop on the boat is right hand rotation. Do I have to change the prop to make this work or does the trans convert the rotation.? Thanks to all who can help. I am 72 now and dont know if I am going to be able to complete this project or use the boat when back together. I may have to let it go. so let me know if there is any interest. Thanks again ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Replies:
Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: January-05-2018 at 5:00pm
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If you are going left rotation then yes you will need a new left hand propeller. And no the borg is not full reversing, so also you will need to turn or index the front pump on the transmission to turn to the standard left rotation if it was set up to turn right rotation. ------------- Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise. 1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-05-2018 at 9:50pm
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Thought I'd ask what might be a silly question................. or maybe not so silly A 351 with a Borg Warner from a Ski Nautique is most likely a reverse rotation engine unless it was a swap by a previous owner or something. By the time SN's used LH engines they had Pleasurecraft transmissions behind them and SN's have always turned a RH prop regardless of engine rotation.(thru the use of different transmissions) Are you rebuilding a reverse rotation engine to be a normal rotation engine or have you verified it's normal automotive rotation? If you're rebuilding and changing rotation you could run into rear main seal issues among other things Looking at your old posts it's hard to tell what you might have, so I thought I'd ask and maybe save you some issues and hopefully not confuse you |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-05-2018 at 9:56pm
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I have verified the rotation of the motor, it is the same as the car engine. The eng and trans came out of the boat together. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-05-2018 at 10:04pm
| Then a new prop should do it for you |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-05-2018 at 11:24pm
| not aware of any LH 351 bg 1:1s from the factory but that's not to say you don't have one on your hands. what boat? probably rebuilt or joined together later in life... |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:10am
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It is a pcm 351 and it came out of an older ski not sure of the year but I helped pull it out of the boat and the tag on the trans says 1 to 1 if that helps. Does anyone know if I put a left hand prop on the boat what if any changes will occur in handling of the boat? ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:11am
| For a fish probably not. I would do it. |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:16am
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If I go to a left hand prop what size and pitch would be best? I am not able to get down and check the prop that is on the boat for any markings. It is a shame to have to change out the prop because the one on the boat is beautiful. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:20am
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I have seen several vedios of .351 marine engines running and all that I have seen are standard rotation like a car eng. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:49am
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IIRC up until the adoption of the PCM 40-A (1.23:1) trans (1989) all the CC Ski Nautiques I've been around (whether PCM or Commander) have been RH (non-automotive) rotation. The BW 1:1 trans does not have means to turn the prop in a direction other than the motor, except in reverse gear. Possible the donor SN may have had a powertrain replaced at some point. There were available PCM/BW 1:1 LH for twin engine use. ------------- 1994 Ski Nautique "Riot" 1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 6:24am
Stroboscopic effect???? Harold, How did you determine the engine is a standard left hand rotation? Have you had the engine running? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
turboapache wrote:Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 6:38am
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I checked the raw water pump impeller and checked the starter rotation to see which way it turned the eng. also you can tell by the waterpump. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 7:00am
We have had several members who have installed wrong rotation starters by mistake. What rotation is the trans pump indexed for? Was the RWP impeller changed before you got the engine? Was the engine running in the boat with a RH prop it was pulled from? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 10:17am
And they used a ton of them (PCM/BW 1:1 LH) in those other brand ski boats, called, Mastercraft , Ski Supreme, Supra and plenty of others back then. For Harold A picture of the front of the transmission looking right at the oil pump would go a long way right now to tell you what direction of rotation it was set up for.. . |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 11:59am
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Harold, I encourage you to take some more time to investigate the engine rotation. Including myself, there are 4 members who have questioned if your 351 is a LH (automotive) engine. I and others feel the only possibility of the engine being a LH is if someone at one time did a RH to a LH swap. We have given you several ideas on how to ID the rotation so take another look and if you can per Kens request post a picture of the front end of the trans showing the pump index position. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:11pm
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What is the firing order?????????? 1,2,3,4 are on the starboard side 5,6,7,8 are on port side Looking down on the distributor cap & mark where #1 wire is, then mark the rest of them in a CCW rotation. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:13pm
Ken and Duane (or anyone), Does a SBF have a wrist pin offset? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 12:17pm
Yes and No TRW told me that a 302 is offset and pistons need to be reversed for a RR engine. 351 are not offset ++++ but I would verify before installing. IIRC 302 are offset .060 ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 1:35pm
Or a picture of the distributor gear would be pretty much foolproof 
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Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:09pm
Speed reading got me again. The first post explains it all. The current engine will indeed need a new prop. He says he has verified rotation  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:49pm
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If I remember right an oem Ford is not ofset, oem Chevy's are. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 2:55pm
Duane, I'm not too sure. I too have reviewed the first post and others and am still not convinced the rotation has been confirmed. We'll see?? Remember, the engine and trans (1:1) came out of a SN. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 3:23pm
Gary, I know for a fact (100% sure) that my 302 Ford pistons are offset .060. Both my .040 pistons that I took out and my .060 oversize pistons that I installed after my rebore are .060 offset. I called the Guru at TRW to verify if the notch went to the front as in a car or to the rear as in a RR boat application. He stated that the notch goes to the rear for my RR engine. Again, remember that mine is a 302 SBF. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 3:56pm
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Don't doubt you Duane but those are aftermarket pistons. Basically you need to follow the piston manufacturers recommendations. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 4:09pm
  (But don't tell anybody that it is not 100% original). ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 7:50pm
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After looking at the front pump I can see that the trans is indexed to turn right hand. Now I am confused. I need to do some more research on the parts that came out of the eng. such as the cam and distributor gear, and recheck the starter rotation. I noticed that the pump bolt pattern is not semetrical? I have a file on my computer that shows different views of the eng and trans as they were pulled from the other boat. I dont know how to upload the photos to this site. When we pulled the unit it was still in the aluminum cradle but we cut off the ski pole and it fit perfect in the fish and lined up perfect to the prop shaft. Thanks to anyone who can help. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 8:33pm
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Hi Harold See the thread in the link below, lots of reading but there are pictures, diagrams and explanations. The whole rotation thing can be real confusing but the thread may straighten things out. If your pump says RH at the top then it's set for a normal rotation engine due to how Borg Warner looks at rotation. You should have an arrow near the RH stamping too. It would be pointing to the right. You would have a RH transmission for your normal LH rotation engine because B/W looks from the front and marine engine rotation is viewed from the back. So.................I say you have a transmission set up for a normal rotation engine just like you thought You may have to read the linked thread a couple or a few times to digest all the info If you look at your distributor gear as another from of verification the teeth will slant like this for a LH engine /////// or like this \\\\\\ if you had a RH engine. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31141&PN=1&title=engine-identification-problems" rel="nofollow - transmission link |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 9:03pm
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Just did some checking and all I see including the distrubitor gear and matching cam gear are the same as a automotive cam that I have here in the shop. The arrow at the top of the pump is going to the left as you view the pump straight on. Am I confused or does that not mean it is set up for a reverse rotation eng? ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 9:26pm
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The head of the arrow should be pointing to the right or clockwise or toward the port side of the boat for your normal rotation engine. The distributor gear is telling you the engine is normal automotive rotation The transmission arrow should point the same way that the engine rotates |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 9:39pm
 ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 10:04pm
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Good picture Larry of a transmission set up for a RH reverse rotating engine. Some also say RH or LH next to the arrow. Harold Here's a thread about posting pictures, the first post tells how http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23667&title=need-help-posting-pictures-here-it-is" rel="nofollow - posting pictures |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-06-2018 at 10:13pm
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Here's a picture of one set up for normal automotive rotation In later years the LH and RH were removed to reduce confusion  |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 2:21am
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This gets very confusing because I was there and helped to pull this motor and trans out of the old boat as an assembly. Now looking at the trans pump it is clearly set up for a right hand rotation but the eng is for sure a standard rotation. There is no way that I can see for this combo to have ever worked. The only thing I can figure is someone who did not know what they were doing put the wrong eng and trans together and could not get it to work so that is why the boat sat and was being scrapped. Another thing I found that suggests they did not know very much as mechanics was when I tore the eng down the rings were .030 undersize for the pistons. The ring gaps were about .050 and should have been no more than .020 at most. There would have been tremendous blow by and pressure in the crank case. I built high performance engs for years and I am 72 now and I have to shake my head at some of the things I have seen some people do. It looks like to me that I will finish the eng build as a standard rotation and index the pump so it is turning in the proper direction and hope there is no damage to the trans and change the prop to a LH. I still welcome any help and advice from everyone. Now I have to find a LH prop. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 2:33am
That sounds like the easy part |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 3:28am
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Is there a place on the site I should look for a LH prop??? Does anyone know what the standard factory prop was on the 86 Fish Nautique? ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 3:56am
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[IGM]uploads/12151/DCP_0987.JPG[/IMG] ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 9:37am
First one should be IMG not IGM  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 9:51am
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Is the engine still apart? Some pictures of the crank where the rear seal runs would be nice. Lefty and righty cranks had different direction wick lines at one time. When spun opposite they will cause the seal to leak. Some will be happy to see the PO used a quality filter. Painting an orange filter black has to make it better  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 12:26pm
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 1:31pm
This is what a RR crank will look like. You can see the oil wick lines on it. KENO was going to take his crankshaft out of his engine and photo it but I told him that I already had a photo of mine.  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 2:10pm
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No, No Duane I was gonna take your engine apart but luckily you have a picture already
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Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 3:14pm
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wick lines show as automotive, all other indicators also show auto rotation. Still trying to figure out the photo posting, I think I had some help from quinner on the two that are in my other post. Thanks ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 3:36pm
     ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 4:11pm
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Harold, It's hard to see the cam screw on the RWP (raw water pump) from the picture but the RWP looks like it's on backwards for a standard rotation engine. The screw is a good indicator of flow direction. Many have installed their RWP backwards/upside down. Glad to see you got the picture posting figured out! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 4:14pm
 Here are some of the things going into the new eng build------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 4:47pm
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New crank new cam it doesn't make a difference now what it used to turn. As long as the distributor fits.... but that raw water pump is on for a righty 😯. Where did you get that oil pan those are hard to find. Unless you stumble over one. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: woodyelc
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 6:04pm
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If you put this motor in a FN you will need to put 4 inch spacer,s on the exhaust manifolds or you will have water coming back into the motor. You will need a 14x11x1/18 left hand prop. I might have one at the store. FYI the rear main seal was changed about 1983 and the hash marks went away on the crankshaft and seal took care of it. Same crank used LH or RH. ------------- woodyelc |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 6:19pm
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The oil pan came on the eng. If you look at the photos you can see just how everything was just as we pulled it. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 6:29pm
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As for the cam screw as I understand it is to the outside away from the eng. The photo showing the raw water pump is just as it was when we pulled it. I am so thankful to all who are helping because there is so much I do not know about all this. ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: turboapache
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 6:39pm
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I need some clarification on the prop dimentions. Are you saying that the prop is 14x11 for a 1 and 1/8th shaft? Thanks ------------- there is no substitution for cubic inches. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 6:40pm
 Spacers? Where, between the manifolds and risers? Please explain.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 7:41pm
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I would venture to guess between the riser and pyramid manifold Pete. That motor looks to sit kinda low in the boat. Backing down and a following sea could get water in the engine. Mufflers might help but you guys don't like them..... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 7:52pm
My guess as well but just asking for a confirmation. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 8:46pm
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Here you go Pete with the PCM part numbers. I'll bet the price has gone up the book is at least 10 yrs old. http://imgbox.com/HS6jsqXP" rel="nofollow">  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 9:12pm
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Looks like a late 90s engine which would naturally be LH. Someone definitely screwed up and probably why it's in your hands now. Raw water pump is upside down. Yes Fish 23' had a 1.125 diameter shaft. |
Posted By: woodyelc
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 11:09pm
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You are correct that the following sea will let water into motor without the risers. Motor sits to deep in the bilge. What year did the motor come out of. Where is the I.D tag on the intake. ------------- woodyelc |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-07-2018 at 11:54pm
| Use flappers on the exhaust outlets |
Posted By: woodyelc
Date Posted: January-08-2018 at 1:32pm
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flappers will not stop the water from coming in. ------------- woodyelc |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-08-2018 at 1:46pm
| are you recommending against using them? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-08-2018 at 2:10pm
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I think the water that's already in the exhaust from the raw water pump can surge foward too HW even though the exhaust gas is pushing out. Best not to slow down or back up,use Dr Steve's method -when in doubt floor it ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-08-2018 at 2:26pm
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Even my custom made 3 1/2" 45* turn downs have flappers  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: woodyelc
Date Posted: January-08-2018 at 5:42pm
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The oil boat did not have flappers they came about the early mid 70"s. Yes it is good idea to use them. ------------- woodyelc |