blowed it up yesterday
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42561
Printed Date: April-24-2024 at 11:53am
Topic: blowed it up yesterday
Posted By: baitkiller
Subject: blowed it up yesterday
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 9:10am
Pretty sure I dropped a valve or jumped the chain last night putting her away. Gave it one little blup running on the flusher to clear the risers and all motion ceased. it actually acts like its way over advanced, not a mechanical clunk type locked up. Im gonna go pull the plugs out today and Ill let you know the prognoses when I return.  ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Replies:
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 10:31am
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dropped #5 intake. Crap. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 10:42am
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Bummer. Did it drop a keeper or break the head off?? What engine?? ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 10:48am
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5.7 GM. left handed so no biggie. Not sure whet happened yet. water in 5 and 7. Electrode is burned right off #5. All others look perfect. Im thinking the head cracked and dropped the seat. Still pondering tearing the heads off or just ordering a long block. Not really sure yet. Too bad Im not ready to build that stroker. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 10:57am
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I would be shopping the wreckers for a relatively low mileage vortec runner out of a Tahoe or something of the like. It would cost you an intake and the need to run an electric fuel pump but they make nice ski boat motors with the roller cam and modern head design. Anything under a 100k miles is likely to rust out before it wears out, and I trust the used factory motors more than most of the aftermarket long blocks... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 11:16am
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Thats an idea. I have to run the cast iron intake and I can get the factory pump easy enough. That gets me 298 vs 280 horses as well. I would have to tear it down and change the head gaskets and casting plugs though. Think there is difference in cams? ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 11:31am
| Thought vortec was a ford engine |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 11:40am
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I have helped swap a couple used 5.7 vortecs into open bow malibus on the lake in place of blown up factory 260hp mercs. Pulled the plugs and replaced with brass (although I am not sure but I think we ended up pulling brass plugs out of at least one of them. We didn't mess with the cam and both boats picked up 3-4 mph on the top end and are hotter on the pull than before the swap. I am sure there is likely a better cam option out there but I don't think I would bother. The first one has a solid 400 hours on it now and acts like a new motor. Definitely would have rather run a mechanical fuel pump over the not super reliable aftermarket electric options but it was a reasonable trade off – spending a little time to mount/wire and plumb up a carter electric with an easily replaceable relay and oil pressure switch that would last a few years and swap out relatively cheaply would probably be worth the effort. Everything seems to be getting a bit harder to find these days, but one of the two was a 90k engine for 500 on craigslist, the other guy went the salvage yard route and it was more money but they did knock off a few hundred bucks because he was going to tear it down far enough that the salvage yard didn't have to offer a warranty. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 11:44am
Correct but GM makes them for Ford!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
shierh wrote:Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 11:59am
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I've done the same as Joe New intake manifold for the Vortec head bolt pattern, same exhaust, electric pump and brass "plugs" whatever you want to call them. Your carburetor and distributor and the rest of the bolt on parts and you have a good running engine with plenty of power. Edit...........it may not be too easy to find a cast iron intake to fit since you run in that salty ocean water |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 12:39pm
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Posted By: DVskier
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 12:54pm
| Yeah Pete, Vortec is definitely GM. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 1:10pm
Tim, You actually thought I was serious?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 1:28pm
| what is the ford pu gas engine called, Damn things all sound alike . Etech vortech, v tech, bluetech whatevertech |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 2:54pm
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Electrode burned away and gasket blown between 5 and 7 classic detonation damage. Sorry. Detonation is usually caused by lean burn which makes the cylinder burn hotter. Common cause on a carbureted engine would be an intake leak letting extra air in to the damaged cylinder. Excessive timing can certainly cause this also. A dropped valve is also an indication you had excess heat in that cylinder. Find the cause before repairing so the same problem does not hit your next engine. If your pistons and cylinders are good you could just install new heads. A Vortec head upgrade is a great option but a Vortec manifold would be needed also. For the cost of both these you are close to cost for some new aluminum performance heads or Dart cast iron performance heads. From 0 to 5,500 RPM on a 350 the Vortecs are really good. ------------- |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-05-2018 at 9:04pm
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* ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-05-2018 at 9:29pm
 ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 11:16am
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pretty ugly. wonder how long it had been leaking? what is the composition of the build up above the valve? is that rust ? if so its been leaking for a while id say. also is that the exhaust or intake, I cant tell from photo, if exhaust then do you have exhaust manifold crack or riser issue? If this is vacuum leak induced it makes me want to do test on mine with wd40 to rule out leaks. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 11:27am
exhaust valve is usually smaller than intake valve, no? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 11:34am
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How about the steam engine in Pete's Paddlewheel Nautique ? Was great for shallow water but the rope kept getting tangled.... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 12:50pm
Yep much smaller. |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 12:52pm
Likely, it looks like water had been pooling from above, note the build up of rust where the top of the valve would have been? Think she sat for a period of time with water sitting in the port. I would Say there is a riser and or manifold issue there. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 12:59pm
Agreed, or possibly cylinder or head water jacket ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Donald80SN
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 2:22pm
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I have 281 000 miles on my 2004 Tahoe with the Vortec (326-328, not 327) motor. Those Vortec's are great. I know Joe gets over 300K before any of his stuff is broken in. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique SOLD Back to Cypress Gardens 2002 Sport Nautique, GT-40, FCT2, Cover Sports, Tower Bimini, Inc., Wet Sounds Audio System, Star Gazer Wake Edition S. 1968 Ski Nautique, Project. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 4:04pm
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Don, your Vortec is the LS design engine. No parts are compatable with the early Small Block GM design. The LS family of engines is a ground up new design. You are correct, they are very good. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 4:36pm
That is a lot of trips to the Sugar Shack! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: bwinn
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 5:13pm
They will definitely go 300k. Might need a lifter or two at some point. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 5:31pm
Maybe you can hook up the AFM on it too so that when you don't need all 8 you can save some gas  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 8:26pm
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The lumpy rust is from a past riser failure or two years ago. Its gray and sooty over old rust. Except for the new rust from the blow up of course. Manifolds and risers are dry-port< 1 year old and pressure tested OK. This is the head I never touched. I was told when I bought the engine that it was freshly reconditioned. I think it was done on the cheep, that corrosion was always under the seat and three years later the seat cracked and fell out. Knocked a nice big hole in the water jacket too. yes, #5 exhaust. I just picked up a good running 6.2 (383) that will be going in soon. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-06-2018 at 9:41pm
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The 383 will really wake up your boat. " Can you say, Multiple deep water barefoot starts no problem" It is hard to believe till you drive a 383 how much difference there is between a 350 and a 383. Horsepower is not that big a difference but the torque a 383 makes as low as 2,000 RPM's make them feel much larger. than 383 cubic inches. I hope yours has the longer 350 5.7 inch connecting rods, it makes the engine much more reliable. ------------- |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-07-2018 at 12:24am
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I drove Eddies last year. Baaadd asss machine. Mine was never slow with 280. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-09-2018 at 2:38pm
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Well the 6.2 (it was a marine 377, not 383 sorry, bear with me) had 8 scored holes when I opened it up. Not even rebuildable. Crap. Back to ground zero. I have ordered this and it will be delivered this week. 5.7 vortec with 4bbl intake (iron) balancer, circ pump covers and pan. Good news is thay have an older block with the fuel pump boss so I dont have to ghetto rig it. Still has the roller cam and will make 330 horse power with a 4 barrel.. I needed the intake, I needed a balancer Delivered to my buddies shop total price ~3K  ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-09-2018 at 3:57pm
| Nice. That ought to wake up the hull a bit. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-09-2018 at 4:42pm
One would think but I i really don't expect much. This old motor made 280ish and ran like hot love. Probably won't have to do any prop mods. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-09-2018 at 5:16pm
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If you want top end speed a larger prop may be in your future. If you stay with the prop you have you will get to top speed much faster. A good 383 will pull like a stock big block. You should be ready for fun this summer. I had all the parts to convert my 350 in my old Malibu to a 383 but my 350 ran so well I just never made time to make the switch. ------------- |
Posted By: sport1999
Date Posted: April-13-2018 at 10:55pm
You get the motor back together, yet? 
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Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 10:07am
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Yeah.. well kind of anyway. The two scrap motors are gone from the garage and the new one is here, un crated and hanging from a hook in the garage. But this morning i sit here at my desk working on reports. I also have to clear the house of foliage all around to get ready for painters. Oh, yeah we have a fund raising dinner tonight and a friends B day party tomorrow mid morning. My goal for the weekend is to get as many coats of truck bed liner on the oil pan as I can. These pans are $280 and rust out fast being right in the bilge. (sea water) The spray on liner works better than anything I have tried in a rattle can. I am also going to drop another 1200 into manifolds and risers. The dry joint stuff I have is only a year old and pressure tested fine, looks fine but is Sierra and made in Taiwan. Don't trust it. New Mercruiser OEM stuff being ordered Monday. Kaitlin Rose will have it together over the week and ready to go next. Thanks for asking! ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 10:15am
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I need to buy a new hour meter too. And change the transducer while the engine is out. And fetch all the flips flops and beer cans and sun screen and my short 9/16 Snap on wrench and Marys' bottle of wine and the boot lube and a few coozies from the aft bilge pockets while the engine is out. I think Kostas may have some stuff in there too. Ill have to check. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: OldSchoolBlue84
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 12:17pm
Most likely  good luck on the project. That little machine is going to be screaming soon! ------------- Kostas http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=6700&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1984 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 1:04pm
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I am also going to drop another 1200 into manifolds and risers. The dry joint stuff I have is only a year old and pressure tested fine, looks fine but is Sierra and made in Taiwan. Don't trust it. New Mercruiser OEM stuff being ordered Monday. Kaitlin Rose will have it together over the week and ready to .... I am not too familiar with the mercruiser stuff is there a reason why you prefer it over spending 800 bucks on pcm risers and manifolds? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 1:53pm
Yes. It eliminates the possibility of gasket failure. The water passages are external of the riser gasket. In my experience, riser gasket failure is equal to riser corrosion in regards to engine failure.  Trying to embed a pic buts not letting me today.. odd. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 1:55pm
 ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 2:07pm
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Hey Joe, we discussed options of adding a bit of hook instead of installing a tab or plate at one time. I think you had tried a few things and had some ideas. Can you remind me of what worked? Thanks ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-14-2018 at 2:21pm
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NM I found it. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 5:32pm
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Put it in Saturday, Put 3 hours on it Sunday just poking around doing break in time. Runs great but doesn't feel real snappy. I may have to tear the carburetor down for cleaning. Ill wait on it for now though. The engine builder supplied a break-in protocol that involves 20 hours. You heard me... 20 hours. The engine runs a roller camshaft. As I have no intention of staying out of it for 20 hours I would like the opinion of the collected brain trust in regards to break in. Eddie, if you are listening, what did you do that pretty bow tie you put in your boat? ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 6:21pm
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I can see how they wouldn't want you to run long sustained loads for a while but if they are asking you to stay off it for 20 hrs that's hard to justify with a modern engine/oil. You have a roller cam which takes the hard part out of it. Bearings don't break in, so that just leaves rings/cylinder wall - Not knowing the rings or the hone – its hard to know how long they should take to break in.. but they probably have already. I do the ten hard sprints/stops ASAP method typically – partly cause who wants to wait. Done it to a dozen boats now and never been an issue – but best be sure about your cooling/timing etc. I am a bit surprised you haven’t noticed some snappiness – did they give you timing specs for the new long block- should be a little lower I suspect. Are you using spark plugs for the vortec heads? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 6:52pm
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Thanks Joe. They gave me a spec sheet that was just general GM 5.7 and suspect the plugs are wrong. The parts guy raised an eyebrow. I'm going to double check the timing as well its at 8* with the advance module cancelled. Ill post up the break in thing when I get a chance. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 7:10pm
 ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 7:22pm
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According to everything I can find out I have the right plugs in it.. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 8:27pm
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So whatever plug you're using does it have a reach of .708 inches? Having done this swap a number of years ago in a friend's boat we used Autolite AP 605 plugs cause that's what was in the engine when we took it out of the truck. It sounds like you have a distributor like a Delco EST or maybe a Mercruiser with electronic timing control and no flyweights. We used a Mallory and ran it with 10 degrees advance at idle and about 32 at anything above 3500 rpm or so. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 8:35pm
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Mercruiser Thunderbolt 5. is about as bullet proof an ignition as has ever been made. Set at 9* with the timing shunt in. Moves to 12* without. The last engine I did it old skool. Ran it WFO and turned it up until it pinged a tiny bit then backed it off a tad. No ping, tan plugs, ran fantastic for about 700 hours before the valve seat fell out. The engine failure was certainly not timing related. I have no idea what the actual timing was. I need to get a timing tape or advance light and see what the total curve is. Do you guys trust the advance lights? Or should I just order a tape for the right size balancer? ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 8:37pm
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It runs fine as wine. Smooth and tourquey. Power rolls on nice. Just not "snappy" like the older engine with less theoretical power. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 8:58pm
Would that be some good stuff like Boone's Farm or Ripple or Thunderbird?  I suppose with timing lights, it's whatever you're used to. I'm real slowly getting more used to the advance lights but I probably use the old one more. The tach on the advance lights is a nice feature too. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 9:42pm
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Apothic Red... The daily driver. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 9:51pm
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Break in procedure, The most critical thing is to avoid overheat at all costs. Brand new engines are tight and will run hotter than your old engine. Internal heat, cylinder chamber heat increases from spinning this new engine while it is tight. They loosen up quickly. Your rings should have been seated the first time you took off at 75% throttle. I bet that happened already. I would not run it wide open for any time at all. If you run wide open back off as soon as it get close to max RPM. Fluctuating your speed helps break in a new engine. After a few hours change your oil. A 383 will normally pull far stronger from 1,500 RPM to 3,500 RPM, if built right it may have 100 more pounds of torque in this range. You should feel that for sure. Set back timing lights work very well and let you confirm your timing at idle and at all of the RPM ranges. A great tool to help tune accurately. Vortec heads don't like a lot of timing due to fast burn chambers.. Most say they have max power between 28 and 32 degrees in by 3,000-3,500 RPM. Cars may want the timing all in sooner but in a boat you are always under load.. Start low and go up slowly while checking for detonation under load. It is easy to detonate a piston to death. Detonation can cut an engines power by 30% in a heartbeat. Usually felt as you accelerate, engine pulling hard and suddenly the exhaust tune changes slightly and the engine power falls off. You may have a lean burn condition due to the extra 33 cubic inches. More inches = more fuel needed. Get it tuned and keep us posted. I think you will love this new engine. When racing you build it on Friday and race it on Saturday. Break in consisted of making sure you had perfect timing, good oil pressure and the radiator was topped off. Then it was considered ready to race. What prop are you turning? ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 9:57pm
Ken, You forgot the MD 20-20. Take a step up! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 10:00pm
I'm old like you Pete, I couldn't think of the other high school favorite but you got it. I think the Mad Dog was/still is a classic
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 10:02pm
He's missing those 33 cubic inches, he bought a 350 Vortec
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Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: April-23-2018 at 10:10pm
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Thanks Mark. A week or so ago I posted that the 6.2 turned out to be burned slap up. I decided to buy a re manufactured 5,7 vortec instead of trying to save it.. The 5.7 should be around 340 horse carburerated. Same displacement and the same carburetor. I only have an afternoon on it. Plan as of now is to do the one thing that I did not do. Strip and clean the carb. So Ill do that and check timing all-in, test ride and report back. Full advance target is 32 degrees? ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-24-2018 at 3:47am
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I missed the downsize of the engine. A Vortec running well will stomp on a standard 260HP Mercury Marine. I know first hand. A friend had his oil changed in his boat. One of his buddies picked the boat up from the dealer after the maintenance work. He went straight to the lake and burned up the engine before leaving the 5 mph zone. The shop forgot to fill it with oil. The borrower did not watch gauges. I had the stock 350 260 HP and that boat got the newer replacement Vortec Marine engine. We formerly had the same power, after the Vortec install that other boat picked up about 500 RPM all else the same. We ran pretty close out of the hole but the Vortec beat the snot out of me from 3,000 RPM and up. My max RPM was 4,500 maybe 4,700 on a great day. The Vortec in the same boat, same prop was spinning up to 5,200 RPM. It ran hard. You may wish to do some reading to see what proper timing is for your new engine with Vortec Heads. Start a little conservative and add more later if needed. ------------- |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-24-2018 at 3:52am
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Don't laugh about that MD 20/20, when we were young and broke we took Beer and MD 20/20 on all our Water Ski weekends. Camping on the beach and drinking that stuff at the fire. Great Memories, crappy drink for sure. Have not touched it in the last 30 years. ------------- |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: May-07-2018 at 10:10am
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So the boat runs fantastic but I still have less than expected power. Only turning 4300 at 45mph. I did a roll-off test and it certainly dies off at full open and regains a surge when you back off a bit indicating small jets. I have yet to check full advance but am right a spec on base timing. No pops, no surges, no backfires or misses. Just kinda stops pulling. This is the Mercruiser Weber carb that ran perfectly on the old engine..??. So my question to the group is: Do the Vortec heads flow enough more air that a jetting change would be needed? It seems unlikely to me unless the carb was borderline to begin with. I'm going to pull a metering needle and check spring color against the chart today. Im still trying to figure it all out. Thanks for the help. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |