De-winterizing startup trouble
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Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42830
Printed Date: April-27-2024 at 6:14am
Topic: De-winterizing startup trouble
Posted By: shouse
Subject: De-winterizing startup trouble
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:10am
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Starting the season and already have an issue right out of the gate. I'm running it out of the water to change some fluids and having some hard starts. The battery is newer, but can't guarantee the state of the charge. I also don't like how the main leads are attached to the battery, but didn't have an issue w/ that last year so won't bring that into the equation. I'm using garden hose attachment in the T to feed the system. Issues on startup in order: 1. SLOOOW to crank. Thought the battery didn't have the charge, and then it just caught and took off. Lot of white smoke initially. Good after that. 2. No smoke. Can only describe as a grinding noise. As i hold the start button, i see all the pulleys slowly turning, but sloow. Probably holding about 4 secs of that noise, it starts. I can't tell if the noise is a starter cranking noise or something locked up in the pulley chain, such as the alternator. .Found the belt lose after initial run on the water pump. (changed the water impeller this morning). Tightened. 3. First attempt all i got was a click. Hit the off button, Re-tried holding start button. Same grinding issue that leads to a start and runs fine after that. If it's a starter, I don't know where to begin, other than simply swapping out for a new one. If it's something seized on the belt system, i'd be surprised (but not shocked) as everything worked when i put it away for the winter and I didn't experience the issue on the first startup. Anyone experience anything like this? Thanks 2000 AIr Nautique GT-40 |
Replies:
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:16am
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Get a volt meter, also maybe a battery charger. In the mean time try using the battery from your car or truck. |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:53am
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Just hooked up my battery charger. 225a startup. Just talked to my father, apparently 225a startup isn't recommended for marine batteries. Lesson learned While it didn't take as long to start. The grinding was still there. Sounds fine when running so makes me think it's not any pulley seized. Going to attempt to upload a sound clip. |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:10am
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Grinding noise - with charger hooked up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl3jxpG4nw&list=UU6ndkDGD4ysbSv4ImXtSvAQ&index=1" rel="nofollow - youtube_gt40_grinding |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:19am
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If you think a pulley is going to slow down a v8 you are wrong but take both belts off and see for yourself. Hook up the hose water T like normal. Water will flow through a non spinning pump but I wouldn't run it more than a 30 seconds. I haven't listened to the sound clip yet but is your prop spinning? A little dirty neutral and dry cutlass is not a happy noise. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:27am
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Watched the video, not detecting any weird grinding. Also completely lost as to why your father is worried about 225 amp start mode on your battery. There are marine cranking batteries (car batteries with threaded studs) and there are marine deep cycle batteries. I suspect you might have a deep cycle based on your issues, which is bad. This could have damaged your relay and possibly starter. |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:42am
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Yea, I have a OPtima blue top, deep cycle. The noise i'm referring to occurs at about secs 6-8. I agree, doesn't sound as much like a grinding noise in the video, but it's definitely a noise i'm not used to hearing. Took longer to catch to w/o the charger, so that's not helping for video purposes. Oh, forgot to mention, i sure hope the prop isn't spinning. Has to be in neutral to start. Should be in neutral. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 2:13am
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Deep cycle batteries are for trolling motors, water pumps and stereos, not cranking v8s. Dirty neutral is prop spinning while the shifter is in neutral. I hope the prop isn't spinning but it would be good to check. If it is hose it down, that might be your noise. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 7:58am
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Peter, Did you clean your battery posts and the battery cable terminals with a wire type cleaner designed for the job? Do, as mentioned use a starting type battery. Why the deep cycle? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 9:24am
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I heard the grind. Could be the teeth or bendix on starter. You could take the starter off & inspect the gears & also have it tested at a electrical shop. Be sure & disconnect battery 1st. Another plan would be to ignore it for now & see if it gets worse. Then it will be obvious what the problem is. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 9:36am
I agree with this. . Perhaps a rusted Bendix gear (Starter) Could pull and inspect. However the dirty neutral prop spin is also a good call? Sounds great once its started!! Good luck. ------------- Js |
SNobsessed wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 10:15am
What's the concern with the termination? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 11:40am
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I purchases the blue-top because that's what was on the boat when i purchased it. I have no idea why i didn't search the forums 'recommended battery' before going out and purchasing a new one when the last one failed on me last year. This battery has the main thick gauge battery posts and then the threaded bolt terminals. The main ground lead is hooked up to the thick post, however the positive main lead is crimped onto a large eye-ring connector and thumb screwed down onto the threaded bolt terminal (along w/ a few other accessories). What battery DO you recommend? I'm guessing it doesn't need to be marine grade? Appreciate those that did respond and heard it. I know i'm not crazy (yet)  Sounds like I might have a little time to figure it out and see how the problem grows. It is a little surprising to me that first start of the season it didn't occur, and from then on, it is consistent. Do agree, sounds good once started, |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 11:48am
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Ok, i still don't understand this dirty neutral prop spin. As far as i'm aware, i can only start the boat when it's in locked-out neutral. I didn't touch the shifter after it's started, so assuming there is no possibility of it happening. |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:06pm
Just FYI -- Optima BLUE top is not a dedicated deep cycle battery. The blue tops are dual purpose - basically a redesigned cranking battery that allows for moderate deep cycle use. Unless your battery is damaged or very old, you would not have any issues using that battery for cranking. I have had Blue tops in my boats for years and never had a problem. When they start to get old, they have a rather steep drop-off though and they don't weather winter storage very well - you have to remove them (from a freezing environment) and keep them on a trickle charge and they'll last 5 or 6 years. The Optima Yellow top batteries are the deep cycle only. Those shouldn't be used for anything other than a house battery for amplifiers and accessories. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:14pm
"Dirty neutral" is where the power transfers through to the output shaft slightly, even though the transmission is in neutral. Others can clarify since I don't know anything about transmissions, but from what I understand it is usually not an adjustable thing you'd actually have to have it repaired/ rebuilt. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:16pm
A "dirty neutral" has nothing to do with the shift position. The prop spinning when the trans is in the neutral position is caused by the clutch plates dragging. In most cases, the drag is from warped clutch plates and typical from an overheating at one time. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:23pm
Some prefer to use the post type termination of battery cables but, if done correctly a ring lug on a threaded stud is fine in my opinion. My 64 and my 54 have ring terminals and I have never had any problems. Take a good look at the ring lug and see if it was crimped to the cable properly with a crimping tool. Check for corrosion inside the crimp. Clean all the rings and the stud area of any corrosion and using some dielectric grease is always a good idea. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 12:45pm
Not necessarily true.
Also not necessarily true. |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:11pm
OK, I stand corrected.... I don't currently have Optimas and its been a while since I looked at their options. The blue top marine options used to be only available in dual purpose and the Yellows were only deep cycle. Now it seems they offer cranking also in blue and dual purpose in yellow as well as deep cycle. Sorry for the mis-information. I guess it is down to looking at your specific battery as the blue vs yellow doesn't mean what it used to ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 1:33pm
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Joe, Yes, it seems things have changed with the Optima's and if I remember correctly, it was after the company was bought out I also understand from reports they aren't as good as they once where ether. When I bought the Tique, it came with a brand new red top and it lasted 3 seasons. I've had normal automotive starting batteries last longer than 3 years and the reason I always suggest just sticking with them. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Fabcon
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 2:05pm
Yes I heard some where the Optima battery's weren't as good as they used to be, hold on a minute that was on here, any way I have a Optima Blue top cranking battery in mine going on 6 years still doing good  ------------- 1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1984 Barefoot Nautique (Parting Out) |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 3:40pm
Cleaning terminals this morning. Was surprised to find my starter connections corroded over again after just cleaning near the end of last season. Am i missing bolt in the engine block right behind the starter??????????
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Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-24-2018 at 4:20pm
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Those threads are for a starter support bracket After a cranking session, feel which positive and gnd connections and cables are uncharacteristically warmer than the others ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 1:40am
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: OptimaJim
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 12:29pm
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Hello, I've been reading quite a bit of conflicting information about our batteries and wanted to help clarify things. Any BlueTop battery made by Optima will have no trouble starting any engine that comes in a Nautique. We have four different BlueTops in three different sizes- 34M- Dark gray case, this is essentially the marine version of our RedTop starting battery D34M- Light gray case, this battery can be used in deep-cycle & starting applications D27M- Light gray case & larger than the Group 34s, this can be used in deep-cycle or starting applications D31M- Light gray case & larger than the 27, this can be used in deep-cycle or starting applications As you can tell from those descriptions, any Optima battery with a light gray case can be used for starting or deep-cycle use, which includes all of our YellowTop batteries. Internally, the YellowTops are identical to the BlueTops with the light gray cases. The only differences are the threaded terminals for marine & RV applications and the two-year warranty that comes on BlueTops vs three years on most YellowTops. Why the shorter warranty? Because guys like Pete store their boat without properly-maintaining their battery, allowing a partially-discharged battery to sulfate while in storage. When they decide to pull it out of storage, they hit what is probably a 50Ah battery with a 225-amp charge, potentially cooking the battery and shortening the lifespan. If our batteries fail because of something we did wrong in the way we built them, those issues will typically manifest themselves well within the first few months of use, if not the first few weeks. Beyond that, battery lifespan largely correlates to how a battery is used and maintained when not in use. That's pretty much the case for every manufacturer and brand. We'll take the hit for the warranty hit on BlueTops for the first two years and many of the "bad" batteries returned to us under warranty are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly-recharged. Beyond the first two years, handing out warranty batteries every Spring, because someone didn't properly-maintain their battery over the winter only makes the price go up for everyone. Other brands deal with the same issues and some of them will even void your warranty if you bring back a deeply-discharged battery, so be sure to read the fine print before making a purchase or seeking warranty service on some of those brands. If you deeply-discharge your battery listening to the stereo on a sandbar on a regular basis, it won't last as long as a battery that only gets used to start an engine. If you keep your battery fully-charged (~13.0-13.2V for BlueTops) whenever possible, it will probably last longer than if you put it into storage partially-discharged and don't think about charging it until several months later, when you want to bring it back out of storage. Even if you don't have access to electricity where you store your boat, if you just fully-charge and completely disconnect the battery and then top it off when you bring it out of storage and before you try to start your boat, you'll be in pretty good shape for a while. You may even save yourself some unwanted headaches. On my '97 Sport Nautique, the hour meter ran whenever the ignition button was turned on, even if the boat was just sitting in the dealership lot after getting serviced  Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 12:40pm
I treated my Optima the same as I treat my automotive batteries.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 1:03pm
You have to admit Pete the sound system you have in the Atom makes Quinners look like a 60's transistor radio  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 2:05pm
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Gary, Yes, I was very impressed with the sound I get out of it. The biggest challenge was working with the 6 volts system! My next upgrade will be the speakers on the newly installed tower.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 2:09pm
Well thanks Jim ... I feel somewhat vindicated. Although a few things have changed since I had 2 D31's and a Yellow top D34 in my big Chaparral, I didn't think that things had changed that much. BTW, I replaced the cheap dealer installed batteries with those Optimas mid-summer two years after I bought the boat. They were still going strong when I sold the boat 5 years later  ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 3:35pm
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Here's a question for Optima Jim For years certain people here on CCF have said how bad it is to use a deep cycle battery as a starting battery and how it's gonna destroy your solenoid and or starter with no good explanation. You touched on this issue a few years ago in an old post but could you provide an explanation of why or why not this statement is true or false? In other words why does the starter or solenoid care where the DC voltage is coming from? Feel free to have someone in your engineering department give an answer.if needed. And for the rest of us ................unless you think you know more than their engineering department, or you know more about batteries than they do, let them give an answer Kinda like an episode of Mythbusters Thanks in advance Jim KenO |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 5:02pm
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Jim, I understand Optima is now owned by JCI, Johnson Controls. I know this company and they supply batteries to many New Cars as they are built. JCI is also ahead of the curve with the AGM technology in batteries. JCI uses superior battery case technology holding the lead plates in place which should help in a Marine environment over time. Has JCI changed the Optima brand? Thanks Mark ------------- |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 9:30pm
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Good questions, good thoughts. What say you Jim? I'd kinda like to know the answer to those, since I'll be buying a new battery (mainly for cranking) as soon as I get my engine installed next week. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-25-2018 at 10:38pm
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Just went out today and got my 95 going. Sitting 7 months,last years fuel with marine stabilizer,primed the pumps turned off the key and did it again and then tried to start. Engine at the most turned over twice and was running. Love these FI motors. I'm using this Optima since '14,it and the one out of the Mustang bought in '13 do make the trip to Florida to run the Shamrock for it's season.When not being used it's on a maintainer. My only complaint is to watch the manufacturing date,the Mustangs was on the shelf at Advance for a year which I did not catch when I bought it. The Nautique one was from Farm and Fleet and was a month old. http://imgbox.com/DBo85Za6" rel="nofollow">  Mustangs- http://imgbox.com/E9kIIiH3" rel="nofollow">  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 2:05am
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Got another clip to post. Same story. No charger on it this time, in the lake. Fired off crappy enough to piss my kid off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNqtjub9vTg&index=1&list=UU6ndkDGD4ysbSv4ImXtSvAQ" rel="nofollow - slow_start |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 2:23am
Yea, well even on a brand new battery for the season, If I left the boat for 3 weeks (actual 3 weeks), it wouldn't have the power to start. Say what you want, but that's crap in my book. I charged the battery, disconnected the terminals at the end of last season. And it was still dead as a door knob this spring. No, I didn't bring it inside for the winter, but I live in Texas, not Canada. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 2:52am
In all due respect your starter looks like a mess,I imagine it must be just as crusty inside. You need to remove and clean all your connections and either have your starter serviced or replaced. Corroded connections will use more amperage when starting. If you look on line you can get an Arco 70200 replacement for around 125.00. You should also buy a battery maintainer,I have a bunch of Schumacher XM1-5's,they are around 30 bucks and keep them on when not in use. Batteries don't like to sit, maybe OptimaJim will prove me wrong but I have heard AGM battries like it even less,that is one reason I haul them 3k miles a year  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 3:02am
| Thanks for quoting the entire post I almost missed it... |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 8:16am
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Peter, A battery going dead after 3 weeks sure indicates there's something draining it and not the type or brand of the battery. Run a parasitic load test. There are plenty of you tube videos on the procedure if you've never done one. You never answered:
Then regarding your ring terminal on the battery:
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 9:28am
Peter, I agree with Gary especially after watching your latest video.
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 11:57am
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I bought the boat with a dirty engine bay, and it's on my long list of things to take care of. My bad. However, I don't see the correlation between how an outside appearance of a part is of any indication of how the internals will or could look. I did clean up the starter connections and replaced the two nuts yesterday. Pete, sorry forgot to mention that. I took off all the battery connections and sanded, wire brushed an used some acid cleaner for places I couldn't get to. The inline fuse was severely corroded over (50a), but I'm thinking that's just for the amplifier that was added. I don't believe an inline fuse to the main engine line. I inspected the crimp connections and believe they're fine. They're snug and looks like they were also soldered. The sounds I"m hearing go past normal starter struggling. In my opinion, something is on it's way out. I'm just trying to figure out what that is so I can replace it. Sounds like the starter is the the most likely guilty cause? Is it pretty easy to unbolt it and lift it right out of the engine bay? Looks like a pretty tight fit. Thanks for the help everyone, really. I had a long day yesterday replacing all the bunks on my trailer (8 plus the nose and 2 fenders) and slightly irritable this morning, lol. Thanks again. |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 12:46pm
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Corrosion on the solenoid and connections often correlate to a wet bilge or even high water that may mean a submerged starter. That’s going to make for all kinds of starter trouble. Not saying that’s your situation but there’s a direct correlation. |
Posted By: flyweed
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 6:56pm
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Shouse, I don't know if I am reading your last post correctly, but the 50amp IS your main boat fuse...NOT for "just" an amplifier. Connections to it, as well as at your battery, your grounds, starter, etc need to be clean as a whistle. From watching your video, there certainly isn't enough power going to your starter, and the starter is dragging, which is what I equate that little bit of "raspy" sound to be. I HIGHLY suggest a "Cranking" battery with at least 750CCA's. I have a 800 CCA battery in my Nautique, and it had been sitting in winter storage since late October until May 1st. I hooked up battery, put the hose on, and one quick turn of the key my engine fired right up and sat their purring like a kitten. Make sure you have a good battery, clean connections on everything. and then try it ------------- '93 Ski Nautique NWZ, Air Boom Tower Drink Tonight..for tomorrow We Ride! |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 7:18pm
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In an earlier post you said yourself that you were surprised to see the corrosion on the starter terminals, when I look at that starter and connections it appears to live in a very humid environment and/or maybe getting wet with a wet bilge. Definitely change out the starter, there is every reason to believe that is the primary problem given you've cleaned up all connections and are still cranking slow. When you say after 3 weeks your battery lacks power to start, how do you leave the ignition breaker, is it on so the bilge pumps are cycling for all that time? On my boat I can leave it that long if needed, but if you are draining your battery fully you either have a questionable battery or a constant drain. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: May-26-2018 at 7:20pm
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OptimaJim, your input is very much appreciated. Please follow up on your post, its great that you cleared up some details about the Optima's but it leads to some follow up questions and would be helpful to hear your comments. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: OptimaJim
Date Posted: May-29-2018 at 7:29pm
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Hi KenO, Before I turn into Bob Smykowski from Office Space and go communicate with the engineers, I think it would be helpful if I understood how you define a deep-cycle battery and if you had specific examples. Hi Mark, JCI has owned and operated the Optima brand for nearly 20 years and there have been a lot of advancements in technology during that time. As a result, when we've had opportunities to improve our production process, increase consistency, performance, etc... we've taken advantage of those opportunities and will continue to do so, as all quality manufacturers do. Gary S, I'm glad to hear your batteries are performing well for you. While it's not typical to see batteries remain in inventory longer than a few months, when it does happen, it tends to happen more with BlueTops, as they tend to have more seasonal demand. Retailers and distributors do have a standard protocol in place for maintaining batteries while in inventory, but if your battery was beyond 12 months from it's production date, it should've been pulled. The warranty starts the day you buy it, regardless of production date and it doesn't appear to have been an issue for you, but we'd like to make sure our retailers stay on top of those things and I will share your experience with the appropriate folks on our end. AGM batteries actually perform better in abusive applications, including extended period of non-use, than their flooded counterparts. However, regular use of a quality battery maintenance device goes a long way in extending battery life and maximizing performance. shouse, if a vehicle has a large enough parasitic draw, it can completely discharge a fully-charged battery in a matter of days. As more aftermarket electrical accessories are added to an application, the chances that one of them is drawing on the battery increases significantly. Have you measured the draw in your boat yet and if so, what was it? If it's possible that something like the bilge pump may come on intermittently, an easy way to see if there's an issue with the battery is to fully-charge and completely disconnect it while the boat sits for several days. If it holds voltage while disconnected, but drops voltage while connected, there is likely to be an electrical issue unrelated to your battery that is causing the discharge. If your battery can't hold voltage for a few days or even a few weeks while completely disconnected, then there is likely to be an issue with the battery. Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-29-2018 at 8:23pm
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Hi Bob .....er I mean Jim excellent movie by the way I'm not one of the ones who preaches about not using deep cycle batteries so whatever your engineers can tell us about using deep cycle batteries either the dual purpose or strictly deep cycle as a starting battery would be good. I'm just curious The statement is always that "it will destroy your solenoid and/or starter so you'd better get a regular starting battery and ditch that deep cycle" My question would be "is that true and why or why not?" Thanks |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-29-2018 at 9:45pm
Low voltage causing a higher amp draw causes start relays to fail/weld contacts together the same as using a weak battery. Ken, Who are you quoting? I'm finding that manufactureres of deeps recommend using a deep that has 20% more CCA than the equal starting. Many of us can't fit the next case size in their battery box. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-29-2018 at 10:10pm
A number of people over the years including you I can see both sides of the argument and want to hear what their battery engineers have to say. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-29-2018 at 11:22pm
I too am looking forward to what the technical guys at Optima have to say. "including me" well, you may want to look back at what I have said. It wasn't exactly what you have quoted. Trying to throw me under the bus again I see!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 12:07am
I looked back, Pete's exact quote was: "Only a complete moron, most likely from a climate that has more than 5 weeks of summer, would use a completely inappropriate deep cycle battery as a starting battery in a boat. It is well known that deep cycle batteries cause shaft misalignment."   ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 7:59am
 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 12:12pm
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Well you guys cursed me, sure enough my D34M failed miserably last night - of course it is from 2012 and I was trying to revive it after leaving the pump on for a week and a half and discharging it down to basically nuthin (could still hear the pump humming when I got in the boat a week and a half later but it wasn't turning). I was able to get it back up to 14.4 volts after a few days on a smart charger at low amperage but turn the key and she just wouldn't give up the current. I really babied that battery too, just a small stereo played sparingly on a rarely used and well maintained boat Except the part where all of that last statement is the opposite of reality. My boat generally is set up for Dual D34Ms but I smoked this ones mate 2 years ago when I direct shorted it with some 1/0 gauge cables, I didn't want to pair this one with a new one so it has been on its own for a couple years and still would give me a good hour of stereo usage before I would get nervous and start the engine for a bit. If Optima Jim wants to give me a good discount on a couple replacements - I would be happy to slap a couple optima stickers on my tower speakers. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-30-2018 at 3:44pm
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I just lost my starting battery this spring. It was a little low this spring so I put it on the smart charger for a bit. I also gave it a mid winter smart charge. Strangely it is the only battery I've ever maintained and it is my shortest length of use at 4 seasons until it died. The fresh battery I just installed cranks faster than this one had over the last two seasons and the new battery has less CCA. I think this battery must have lost a cell or two a few years back but kept a charge just fine. It failed when we were 10 miles or so away from home just shutting off after a 20 minute drive. Went to restart and nothing, We died in the back of a finger where a gator was spotted the day before by the dock we were on woo. |
Posted By: OptimaJim
Date Posted: May-31-2018 at 2:33pm
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I appreciate your patience guys and hopefully, I'll have some answers that will make sense. I've had this question come up before and our engineering group's consistent response starts with asking what kind of a battery someone believes is a deep-cycle battery, as the vast majority of batteries that would show up in automotive or marine applications (at least most boats that can be towed behind your vehicle) are not true “deep-cycle” batteries, like those found in stand-alone power systems. The "deep-cycle" batteries most folks use are like our YellowTops or BlueTops with light-gray cases, that are designed for starting vehicles, but can also handle being deeply-discharged with trolling motors or other electrical accessories. The standard line is that as long as these batteries meet or exceed the OE requirements for cranking amps or marine cranking amps (CCA isn't really used much in marine), the battery will have no negative impact on the starter, alternator or anything else. The caveat to that is that the rated cranking amps on the label may not come out of the battery, if it isn't fully-charged, which is a very common issue in vehicles (and vessels) that only see occasional and/or seasonal use. I wanted to cover off on this question from the other parts of the electrical triangle, as my friend, John, at Powermaster Performance likes to call it, so I called him with the same question. He is a great resource on all things related to starters and alternators and has a very capable crew on staff, who has forgotten more about that stuff than most folks will ever know. John's team echoed our guys in respect to hardly anyone using real deep-cycle batteries in these applications, but also noted that solenoids are voltage sensitive. When they receive less than 11 volts, things start to go bad and he noted it's a huge problem with street rod guys, who hardly ever take their cars out and don't properly-maintain their batteries in between use. In marine applications, he regularly tells customers volt meters are their friends and they should be looking for at least 12.6 volts (our BlueTops with light-gray cases are fully-charged at ~13.0-13.2V). When his marine customers have issues, they find their issues are primarily traced back to three typical issues- eyelets too large, leading to poor connections, crimped eyelets leading to poor connections and cable that is too small. With wires running to and from starters, alternators and batteries, there are plenty of opportunities to have issues in multiple locations. If the battery can't make it to at least 12.6 volts or drops really low when starting, then there could also be an issue with the battery. John is also a big advocate for gear reduction starters, because they can provide more torque for high-compression engines and engines that are hard to start in general. I hope that answers your question. Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries Learn more about Powermaster's stuff here- http://powermastermotorsports.com/" rel="nofollow - http://powermastermotorsports.com/ |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: May-31-2018 at 10:41pm
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Ooof. tryathlete jogged my memory. My boat cover failed over the winter during one of our week long rains while i was out of town. I drained WAY more out of the boat than i expected when i got back. It's very possible the starter suffered from water damage. I just lost of the channels of my amplifier too, so i'm noticing this self-destructing trend here. I've already ordered a new cover and making new arrangements for storing the boat. This is costing me too much money. I'm going to pull the start tonight and see what i'm dealing with. I'm still skeptical of the battery. I've had a trickle charger on it for 3 days and it's still reading it as 'charging' and not 'storage'. The battery is approximately 10 months old. To answer a few of the other questions, The only fuse i found is on the amplifier power, positive. I can't find where the 50a main line fuse would be. Maybe I"m just not looking in the right spot? It's also possible when I drained the battery down in 3 weeks that I didn't bring it back fully charged and left the ignition 'on'. THe bilge pump would have been off however. TOo far back to recall and anyone can speculate. I'm more about the present at this point and just determining if the battery is bad or not. May rip it out and take it down to Oreilys or autozone. Thanks for sticking with me thus far , hoping to have this resolved this weekend. |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 12:17am
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Ok, i'm a disgrace. It's completely trashed. The bilge must have been full of water this winter. I can't believe it even functioned. I had to put a breaker bar on to get the bottom bolt of, no fun. Assuming this all happened over the winter and not last year or before I bought it. All the gears look fine. I'm sure it could technically be cleaned up and get new brushes, but the thing is pretty wicked. Easily to justify $150 in my book. Moving onto the assumption the bilge was full of water, I can only assume the transmission and any other low hanging parts. Even the flywheel has a large coating of surface rust. No idea how serious of an issue that even is by itself?? Should I try and clean it? What would your recommendation of where you'd go from here? I've already changed the engine oil and tranny oil. BTW, the trickle charger on the battery finally showed flashing green, which means at least 80% charged. After 3 days.   Rusty flywheel. Should i be concerned? 
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 12:31am
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Just get a new starter,clean your connections and go boating. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 12:49am
That’s all u gotta do |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 12:53am
10-4. Thanks everyone. Already missing this weekend because of this mess and will be out of town the weekend after that. Already hitting 100s down here in Texas. It's gonna be a looooong summer.  Still cleans up pretty good. 
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Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 1:30am
| Where do you boat.? Lots of lakes near u! |
Posted By: shouse
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 2:11am
| Yup, quite a few 'lakes', even though they're all really just damned rivers. I boat on Eagle Mountain Lake, just north of Fort Worth. Our community has a private dock which is nice. I've brought it as far north as Clear Lake in Iowa to go to our family's lake cabin. I always seem to enjoy northern lakes more. |
Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 9:37am
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Well that was a good thread. Especially loved the part where Pete is installing speakers on a tower for the Atom. 6 volt. Great visual. That's funny. And my original diagnosis was correct. I feel good. ------------- Js |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 9:52am
Peter, I wouldn't worry about the rust on the flywheel and ring gear. How deep do you think the water got? If high enough, it may have rusted up the damper plate. Keep an ear open for sounds indicating the damper plate may be going out. Next layup, I do recommend removing the drain plug. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 12:40pm
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My neighbor who has a Mastercraft has a bad cover and his starter got totally rusted but being a cheapskate (aren’t we all?), he just keeps using it even though it cranks slowly and takes a lot of juice to start. Starters are pretty robust appliances. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 12:48pm
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The boat really does look sharp!!! Agreed, starters are tough. Fisher minute mount plows use basically a starter motor to run the hydraulics, and they endure pretty rough conditions with minimal maintenance. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-01-2018 at 5:21pm
Hi Jim and thanks for the reply I guess one maybe easy question is could someone walk into their local autp parts store (like Pete walking into his favorite AutoZone for example) and buy what you guys refer to as a true deep cycle battery or is a true deep cycle what is sold for solar installations etc.Is what's sold as a marine deep cycle a true deep cycle? It sounds like it's not. Otherwise it sounds like whatever you have for a battery, if you actually show it a little love and take care of it you should have far less problems than with the battery that sits neglected until you decide it's time to start the boat after a winter hibernation? And solenoid issues are gonna happen with whatever kind of battery you have if the battery is not in good shape? |
Posted By: OptimaJim
Date Posted: June-07-2018 at 11:25am
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KENO, chances are, if someone is buying a battery out of an auto parts store, it may be a dual-purpose, starting & deep-cycle battery, but it probably isn't a true deep-cycle battery. Those types of batteries can typically come in anything from 2V to 12V configurations, with 6V probably being the most-common. They will also tend to be significantly larger and heavier than most automotive-type batteries. Now, somewhere like West Marine may have true deep-cycle batteries, as well as dual-purpose batteries, because deep-cycle batteries tend to be more common in larger yachts. As with a lot of things, an ounce of battery maintenance can result in a pound of cure. Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries |