Windsor or Cleveland
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43143
Printed Date: April-27-2024 at 8:02pm
Topic: Windsor or Cleveland
Posted By: mjgha
Subject: Windsor or Cleveland
Date Posted: July-13-2018 at 10:44am
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Hello, Can anyone tell me if my boat engine is a 351 Windsor or Cleveland what exactly the difference is? I have a SN CC 95 with a PCM gt-40 5.8 EFI. Hope this is enough info. Thanks, Ethan |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-13-2018 at 11:02am
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Short, simple answer It's a Windsor. You gave enough info  You can google Windsor vs Cleveland and you'll get plenty of info on the differences |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:23pm
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From what I understand no marinizer ever used a Cleveland yet 25% of the boats listed online are Cleveland’s and good luck convincing otherwise. Even in the automotive world Cleveland’s are very rare and that reduced in a rather small time frame. ------------- Please support The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation 1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
Posted By: rebel skier
Date Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:30pm
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There a boat for sale on our site that is a Celvor which is supposedly a combination of the two: http://correctcraftfan.com/forsale/details.asp?ID=9809&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - SN2001 with a Celvor block ------------- Hotty Toddy lets go skiing! |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:55pm
| Commander marinized a Clevor around that timeframe but that 86 does not have one. There was a mid 80’s American Skier that popped up in the last year that did. If you do a google image search for a commander Clevor, you’ll find some mid-late 80’s waterski ads. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-13-2018 at 12:57pm
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Clevors are rare but there are some out there. Celvors are ..........................well you know
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Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 11:06am
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Back when we played around with those engines, it was my understanding that the base engines were built in Australia. They were found to be unsuitable for CC's applications. ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:12pm
Art, Do you remember why? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
ArtCozier wrote:Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:32pm
As best I recall, the biggest problem was oil consumption. I wasn't direct involved, but I understood that on those engines, the valves could not be located directly in line with the cam lobes and lifters, so the push rods were at a slight angle. That apparently caused the rockers to put some side thrust on the valves, and the valve guides would wear prematurely. Apparently the engines were Cleveland blocks with Windsor heads on them, or maybe the reverse of that Sometimes I get those experiments confused with our experiments with the Triton engine when the 351W was on its way out. We had a couple of catastrophic failures with those at sustained high RPM. (PCM did all of the marinization work in both cases) ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:34pm
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Thanks Art. It's always great to hear some CC history. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 12:59pm
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I can see using them in something like a Donzi where high output at high rpm is desired but for a ski tug where torque is desired why bother -the Windsor fit the bill already. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 1:05pm
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A very technical, scientific way to identify is the valve covers.....Windsors use 6 bolts, while Clevelands use 8. ------------- 1994 Ski Nautique "Riot" 1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 1:54pm
I have been told that another way is that the two fuel pump mounting bolts are vertical to each other on the Cleve and horizontal on the Win. Do you know whether that is so? ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 2:22pm
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The water outlet at the intake is like that Art maybe that’s what your thinking. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 2:40pm
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Or maybe he's thinking fuel pumps Here's a351C or M fuel pump https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m6882" rel="nofollow - link The Clevor takes a 351W fuel pump though |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 4:16pm
You probably have it correct. American Ford stopped producing the 351c sometime in the mid 70's so the Australian Ford manufacturer was the the only one producing them for a while. I don't remember when they stopped building them, but if memory serves they used smaller valve heads, which is why they weren't very popular here since you'd have to swap heads to get decent flow and thus, power. Everyone always said that the Windsor had a stronger bottom end anyway so if you had to start swapping parts, why not just start with the readily available Windsor. I had an old classic Mustang back in the day - my first hot rodding experience  (didn't keep it all original either)  ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 4:17pm
| Wat |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 4:27pm
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http://351c.net/wiki/Magazine%20Articles/engine%20building/clevormating.pdf" rel="nofollow - The Clevor engine IE: Windsor block with Cleveland heads. The primary reason was the larger valves in the Cleveland heads. The Australian "Cleveland" heads were a completely different head made for the aftermarket. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 5:11pm
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Interesting read Pete ... When was it that these first came out? Don't recall ever hearing about them. Of course the Mustang was the last Ford I owned till I bought my first diesel P/U in the mid-late 80's and by then the hot rodding days were long since over (wife, kids, work ....) ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 5:23pm
Joe, I don't know! With all the talk about the Clevor,I simply went searching for the info. I like you found it an interesting read. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: July-21-2018 at 6:43pm
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Yeah, google. So many years without all the information you ever wanted to know about anything .... And now it's a wonder we ever got along without it. Anyway, after reading about the Clevor I decided to google Ausie Cleveland's and discovered they did in fact make a larger valve version. It was the first year or two they only had the small valve heads and offered both small and large thereafter. Funny though, I had always heard that the Cleveland was more of a big block vs the small block Windsor. I guess it wasn't technically a big block, just a bigger block than the Windsors. But yes Ethan as was stated before, the GT40 is a Windsor engine and from recent research, not much will swap from a Cleveland to a Windsor so when looking for parts, make sure they are Windsor. BTW - Welcome to the forum! How about some pics of your boat?? ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: July-22-2018 at 4:30pm
Definitely talking fuel pumps. The link that Keno posted shows exactly what I referred to. The bolts are one above the other. ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: July-22-2018 at 4:39pm
Definitely talking fuel pump. The link that Keno posted shows it clearly. ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-22-2018 at 6:00pm
 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |