1977 302 PCM Engine
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46907
Printed Date: April-24-2024 at 8:52am
Topic: 1977 302 PCM Engine
Posted By: Mille1sj
Subject: 1977 302 PCM Engine
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 5:42pm
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Does anyone have pictures of an original 302 that would have been in a Ski Tique? We pulled our engine today to get ready for our stringer replacement. We did a compression test and found the number 6 cylinder at 0 psi. I started removing parts so we can diagnose the problem and see what needs to be fixed. While it is apart, I want to have components powder coated. I would like to return it to the original color scheme, but I do not know exactly what that is. There are multiple shades of Ford blue currently, some place parts that I replaced. The original manifolds and risers were green, I painted them blue when I replaced them. Any help on correct colors or pictures would be greatly appreciated. |
Replies:
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 5:44pm
| Depends on the year, I believe ‘77 would have been pretty dark blue with bright green manifolds. I want to say it’s darker than the off the shelf options (at least the ford colors). Did you run a wet compression test after running it dry? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 5:55pm
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16878&title=ford-blue" rel="nofollow - Ford blue engine paint ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 6:21pm
Yes, ran it again with some oil added, still showed 0 psi. |
TRBenj wrote:Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 6:23pm
Thanks, I’ll compare some of these colors to our. Our intake looks limitation to the brighter old ford blue, the block is a dark blue with almost a slight green tint to it. We did have the bright green manifolds originally, I wasn’t a huge fan of the green, but I may go back to it to keep it original. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 6:28pm
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Steve, Here's the 302 Escort in my 77 Tique.
Why the powder coat? I feel a wet engine paint with a primer would hold up better. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 6:28pm
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That would indicate a valvetrain issue, so that is good news. The Waukesha (and early PCM’s) used a darker blue than the ones shown in the thread that Pete linked. I think reid had some custom mixed for jmurphs promo. The 71 HM in that thread is ford blue (1601), and there are some pics of the Ford Dark blue in there also. Old ford blue is somewhere in between the 2 in darkness... that’s what Pete’s escort appears to be. Now there are some all blue (manifolds included) PCM’s (not including the rebranded escorts) that we’re made around ‘77 that could have been old ford blue... but I haven’t seen very many like that. They used something darker with the green manifolds that were more typical both before and after that point. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 6:36pm
I am not opposed to wet paint and primer. I assumed powder would hold up better being baked on. If that’s not the case, wet paint would be fine. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 7:21pm
Steve, I feel you have the wrong idea about powder coating. The "baking" is not to adhere the coating but to melt it. It's basically a plastic powder sprayed onto a warm surface and then when it goes back into the oven the powder melts together. Adhesion has been improved through the years but it's still not as good as wet paint where there's a chemical bonding. Have you ever had the plastic coating on plier handles slip off? I always use that as an analogy. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 7:27pm
Here's a picture of what Tim is talking about, it's real genuine 42 year old 76 Pleasurecraft blue on a carburetor. The picture was taken with no flash in normal room light It definitely darker than what Pete is trying to pass off as anything close  It was never glossy from day 1 . You'd probably have to custom mix some blue and black if you really want to have the same color. I also took pictures of the 76 valve covers but the bright sun kinda affected the shots. And....I still have the butt ugly green manifolds too if you want to try matching that color 
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 7:32pm
I wasn't trying to "pass off" anything. Note that I stated my engine is an Escort. Note that the ID of Steve's engine hadn't been determined when I posted.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 9:06pm
Sure looks pretty close enough to this- ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 9:09pm
| What color Gary? Not one of the 3 mentioned so far... |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 9:24pm
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Here's a picture showing PCM blue compared to Dark Ford Blue fresh from the spray can Even 42 years of aging won't make it the same 
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 9:26pm
Note...............He must have changed the title of the thread then
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 9:28pm
Well it's what mine was painted before I got it so I just copied it. Being a HM I now think it should have been the lighter shade but this has kinda grown on me. I used Bill Hirsch engine enamel, "Ford Blue '41-42 up to '48"  http://www.hirschauto.com/ENGINE-ENAMEL/productinfo/EE-QUART/FOR%20BLUE/" rel="nofollow - link ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 9:43pm
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For Steve If you really want to match the original color, I can send you the top of that secondary diaphragm chamber. I have no real attachment to it and have others that can take it's place. If you want it send me a PM with your address |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 9:48pm
| Why do I have this wild urge to go listen to some oldies like "Fly like an Eagle" "Abracadabra" and "Take the money and run" ? |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 10:02pm
All of the powder coating that I have had done had to be sand blasted first to give it a surface to bite onto. Questionable as to which method adheres the best when each is properly applied. Paint is probably easier to color match. All my tools had a "plastidip" applied to them and not a powder coating. Apparently yours are different. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 10:05pm
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[/QUOTE] That is the color of mine, with some additional gunk on it. Is your PCM intake manifold the same color? My intake is the lighter blue, my wife couldn’t remember if her father ever replaced it. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 10:06pm
It wouldn’t be a normal day if I didn’t get at least one Steve Miller comment. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 10:23pm
I get what you are saying Pete, powder coat could create more of a shell than a chemical bond from primer and paint. Not a marine application but manufacturing axles we always acid wash then prime and paint. Seems to hold up to high heat and weather conditions. If I got the powder route I will definitely sand blast first. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 10:35pm
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Over in the UK on things like motorcycle parts, they sandblast,zinc plate then power coat. That seems like a better way,but it was not cheap ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 10:40pm
Pete, with all due respect—powder coating is vastly superior to wet sprayed coatings and is the standard bearer for durability and chip resistance and especially corrosion performance. I’ve been in metal finishing 1/2 of my 35 working years and powder coating and e-coatings (electrophoretic) as well as autodeposited coatongs have surpassed wet coatings. I think you may be operating on old information. From my perspective, wet spray is the easiest and most affordable way to get this job done. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-16-2018 at 11:01pm
Glad to make it a normal day The whole engine was the same shade of blue, with those bright green exhaust manifolds |
Posted By: va-river-tique
Date Posted: October-17-2018 at 11:45am
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For what it's worth, I don't have any reason to believe my barn find 77 Tique with the PCM 302 not to be original and I found that the engine was 2 shades of ford blue with the green manifolds. For instance the block was Ford Blue while the oil pan was a rubberized old ford blue with white stamped lettering on the bottom. The carb linkage and starter solenoid plate were Ford Blue. My thoughts were when the engine was marinized some of those components were painted Old Ford Blue, at least on my engine. When I rebuilt the engine I chose to paint the complete engine old ford blue (Dupli-Color DE1621). With the manifolds I originally went with Dupli-Color Grabber Green DE1641 but I found that Rust-Oleum Grabber Green to be more of a match to the original manifolds. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2687" rel="nofollow - Tique http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=9750" rel="nofollow - Silver |
Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 12:32am
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Does anybody have a pic of the green manifolds ? Just curious . ------------- Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 9:35am
If you were to check back later today, I bet you'll see some green manifolds
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 10:05am
 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 10:27am
| That is what my original manifolds looked like, with a few rusted holes and water leaking out of them. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 1:18pm
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Here's a real picture Like TRB and others have said in the past, it's darker than Grabber green which gets mentioned in numerous posts as being something close. Paint has held up pretty well for 42 years and lots of hours of use.  
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 2:02pm
From our ‘72 Waukesha, which I think used the same colors as later PCM’s (through ‘78, anyways), save for the valve covers which later were dark blue instead of green.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 2:04pm
Ken. Why didn't you post the picture 4 and a half hours ago?  IMG]uploads/253/pcm_green_exh_manifold.jpg[/IMG] What else can I do wrong per Ken today? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 2:33pm
I had to come up with that card, write the note and uncover the boat I guess your sense of humor is missing somewhat today..
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 2:46pm
I think this is a fake unless you include a picture of today’s newspaper in the foreground  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 6:30pm
What......., you want me to spend some money on this? |
Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: October-18-2018 at 9:38pm
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Oh my word . That color green on an engine sure is one of those " what has been seen can not be unseen " situations . ------------- Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6. |
Posted By: 89Nautique2001
Date Posted: October-20-2018 at 1:23pm
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Looks like John Deere Green ------------- ------- They are only original once! ------ |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-21-2018 at 3:49am
| No, it’s significantly lighter/brighter than Deere. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-29-2018 at 3:47pm
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I pulled the engine and started taking it apart. I noticed that it has lighter blue paint under the dark typical 302 PCM color. Did they leave the automotive plant the lighter blue then get painted again by PCM? You can see the lighter blue where the oil pan paint is starting to flake and on the back of the engine.   
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Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-29-2018 at 4:18pm
Quite possibly, the current PCM engines come in painted from the factory - modified to marinize and then repainted (usually wires/electrical components and all ) at PCM. I suspect all marinizers have basically been the same process.. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-29-2018 at 4:32pm
Steve, I really doubt that PCM (or any marinizer) would take the time and effort to strip the OEM paint before painting the engine their color. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-29-2018 at 9:56pm
Here's a picture of my manifold from 1976 and a piece of metal painted JD green that I took today while doing some paint touch up on a JD tractor Hardly any difference at all especially when doing touch up on the manifold Maybe TRB is talking about the 72 Waukesha color being a lot lighter or something? Maybe there are different shades of JD green Edit there is JD green (started in spring 1989) and JD Classic Green (before spring of 1989), what I used was Krylon 1932
 
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Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-30-2018 at 12:16pm
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I know we have been talking paint quite a bit on here but I have a few more engine specific questions. As I started tearing into the engine, I found a few concerns, burnt valve, pitted lash cap and worn rockers. I just dropped the engine off to a friend at his machine shop to take a look at the cylinder bores to see if they need to be opened up. We have been discussing roller cam vs flat tap. I would like to go to a roller if they are even available. So far my search has found nothing for a reverse rotation roller cam. Has anyone found one or are they just not out there. After reading a few other threads, I am going to the GT40 heads. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-30-2018 at 12:25pm
RH roller cams do not exist in the wild - a lot of money might get you a custom one built. You would do better with gt40p heads than gt40 for less money. There are some aluminum aftermarket heads that are pretty cheap now as well that seem to be ok. If you need rockers some 1.7 roller rockers (pedestal mount) for those gt40ps seem to be a good upgrade for the wussy flat tappet rh cams that are available... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: October-30-2018 at 2:28pm
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The heads we are going to build are GT40P 4 bar heads. It’s unfortunate that nobody has come out with a reverse rotation roller cam. I get it though, probably not a lot of demand for them. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 10:10am
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I finally had time to get back into the engine repair, I have been trying to figure out what I want to do with the Camshaft. I found a company online (that is actually only a few miles from my house, I had no idea what they did). Its called LSM Engineering Systems, they make custom camshafts for pretty much everything, automotive, racing, agriculture, locomotives, etc. The owner gave me a tour of the facility, I have a lot of experience grinding gears and transmission/axle components and I was quite impressed with the facility. I dropped my cam off to him yesterday, he is going to scan it and check it out on the CMM. He said he should be able to get back to me next week with a few options, Roller Cam, improved Flat Tappet, or making a new one identical to the original. He also mentioned changing the firing order to match the 351 (same as the 302 HO engines). Has anyone changed their firing order on a 302? I'll keep you updated, but if the price is right, I am going to upgrade to a roller.  
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 10:59am
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You problem will be the reverse rotation. Others have thought of going the roller route but come to a screeching hault when they see the cash outlay. I have heard its in the thousands. As far as I know all new reverse 302 cams are 351 order,why produce 2 different ones when one better one is available. Cam Research is a trusted Ford cam supplier. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 11:16am
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A good starting point would be asking what your current firing order is. By 77 marine PCM 302's for the most part had the 351 firing order already. The low performance 165 HP version had the old 302 order and the 185 and 215 HP versions had the 351 firing order. The change in cars came later. Since he's gonna scan it, if you were to post the specs here on CCF, it would help others and it would probably help him get business too especially if he can make a reasonably priced reverse rotation roller cam for you. If you do have the low performance 302, you can read about a variety of reasons for the firing order swap on the internet. Some "reasons" make a lot more sense than others but Ford changed it, so why not go with the new firing order? |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 11:23am
| I will ask him for the specs when I hear from him next week. The tag on my engine says the firing order is 18456273. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 11:32am
That means you already have the 351/late 302 firing order, no need or reason to change the firing order
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 12:02pm
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Steve, I'm getting a feeling he doesn't realize your cam is a RR. ?? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 12:14pm
| We discussed it a few times, That was partially why he wanted the original cam so that he could verify the gear direction and to scan the profiles. He said he has done reverse rotation before primarily for racing boats with dual engines that have one standard and one reverse rotation. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-22-2018 at 10:04pm
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29715&title=engine-mods" rel="nofollow - LSM Let us know the current details (availability/pricing/min buy/etc). Always good to stay current on these things. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-09-2019 at 9:58am
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It's been a while sine I updated this thread. I picked up the new Reverse Rotation Roller Cam from LSM Engineering this week. I can now continue with my rebuild, get the cam in and measure push rods. I should get some good horsepower gains from the changes. Roller cam ground for slightly better low end torque and wider power band, I dint go too aggressive on the grind. Upgraded to GT40P Heads Roller Lifters Roller Rockers Block was line bored and honed Block bored .030 over Hypereutectic Pistons Original Dual Diaphragm mechanical fuel pump rebuilt by Then and Now New water pump Rebuilt Sherwood Water Pump Still looking intake manifolds   
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-09-2019 at 4:27pm
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Interesting development Steve. Ballpark price? Anything said about distributor gear needed? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-09-2019 at 4:54pm
| Cost was $550, I didn’t think it was too bad Considering the costs others said to expect. The original distributor gear should work fine for it. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-09-2019 at 6:38pm
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I don't think that's bad either. I don't have it on me but I have a receipt for a flat tappet GT40 cam from Cam Research,I want to say around 300 not sure but I think it included lifters and broken in. I'm surprised about the gear- I thought you needed a different metallurgy with a roller cam ? Maybe because it's not a factory cam ? It will be interesting to see how it performs when your done,I'll bet you will get this guy alot of work ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: March-09-2019 at 8:24pm
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Gary, $247 for RR custom grind FLAT tappet from Comp Cams. Cam only ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-09-2019 at 11:29pm
| Gary, I will research the distributor gear more. I need to confirm that before I do some damage. Thanks for the heads up. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-10-2019 at 8:43am
That should be real easy research Steve. Talk to LSM Engineering and ask them if your distributor gear is compatible with the gear on the new camshaft Stock distributor gear is cast iron Logically, I would have thought there would have been some mention of gear compatibility somewhere along the way when the camshaft was being ordered/made/sent to you. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-10-2019 at 10:18am
| Thanks Ken, I’ll call LSM on Monday. There are some notes I’ll check on the cam card as well. I don’t remember seeing it, but it may be on there. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-13-2019 at 9:44pm
Apparently this is a really long phone call
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Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-13-2019 at 10:16pm
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Unfortunately it was a series of many phone calls. LSM recommended a composite or bronze gear for the roller cam, sounds easy enough, but bromze or composite reverse rotation distributor gears do not exist for the ford 302 or 351. Even a Cast iron gear is nearly impossible to find. So after multiple calls with LSM and a few former coworkers, they recommended I have a cast iron gear melonite or nitride coated. This should allow it to work with the 8620 Roller Cam. Any thoughts on this? Anyone with a metallurgy background that would agree or disagree? If bronze is the only way, I can get a few gears made, but i’ll Pay for it. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-13-2019 at 10:44pm
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Just me thinking out loud here, but it seems that LSM should have been talking about cam gear compatibility with you before deciding to make your cam. Maybe they did and you didn't realize that there was nothing out there it's pretty common knowledge at least here on CCF that what you need doesn't really exist as a mass produced product and they should know that too or at least ask what you have for a gear.. Can't they make a gear for you that's compatible with their cam or maybe do the coating of a cast iron RR gear that you send to them? Or tell you where to get it done to their standards. At least that way if there are problems it's their cam and gear. Otherwise if you have problems, you know what their answer will be with somebody else's gear being involved. I don't have a clue what a one off gear like that or even a small number of them would cost but you're a gear guy that could probably get some help through work and if you had orders for a few from some CCFers it could bring the price per gear down.. I was hoping your answer would be different, but had that feeling that this would be the situation. Duane in Indy may be able to be of some help here |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-13-2019 at 11:09pm
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It’s partially my fault for not considering the fact that Ford RR gears are so hard to find. LSM gave me the name of a local company that they use for other melonized products. Unfortunately there wasn’t any discussion of distributor gear material before. Had I known they were not available, I would have just put a new flat tappet in. I plan to check a few more sources for the melonized gear and a few more small gear shops over the next few days. Worst case, if I pay to have a bronze gear made, I will also get the cutting summary so I could get more cut in the future. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-13-2019 at 11:35pm
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Sounds like consistent info. https://www.onedirt.com/tech/engine/its-all-in-the-twist-taking-the-confusion-out-of-distributor-gear-compatibility/" rel="nofollow - https://www.onedirt.com/tech/engine/its-all-in-the-twist-taking-the-confusion-out-of-distributor-gear-compatibility/ |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-13-2019 at 11:53pm
| Thanks Ben, it’s reassuring to see the compatibility of distributor material and cam material. Hopefully I can have a cast iron gear melonized and be done with it. I would plan to inspect the gear periodically to ensure there are not any issues. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 4:26am
8620 is a very good steel alloy. It can have a tough core and a hard outer surface. Core for strength and hard surface for wear. Anyway, if you could get a length of material cut (hobbed) with the correct tooth configuration then the remaining work (lathe) is pretty simple. I would suggest at least 12 inches of gear, then numerous gears can be machined from that one piece. Nitriding is a surface hardening that is only a couple thousands deep but very hard. That is at least one way to go. (I will probably get corrected here, I always do)  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 7:39am
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I like the Idea of one long gear and cutting off pieces to machine into gears. I am working on getting a second gernzonthat I can have one nitrided then send the other out to be reverse engineered. I offered to buy the prints or cutting summaries from MSD, Mallory and pretty much anyone else that has made these gears. They claim they don’t have any of these records anymore. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 10:15am
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DUI supplies the reverse Ford dizzy so they have access to the gear documents? Mallory is just brushing you off. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 11:44am
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Pretty sure that dui hasn’t had rr gears in many years. 3D printing technology there get? I’d be leaning on LSM pretty hard to find a workable solution. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 11:54am
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They still list a 302 and 351 Dizzy with a RR gear? 3d printing would be stellar. Anyone know anyone? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 12:19pm
| Yep, they’ve listed it forever. I remember hearing feedback 5+ years ago (maybe 10) that the rr gear wasn’t actually available. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 12:20pm
Their fix is to send my current gear out to melonized. I am fine with that, after I confirm with a few metallurgists that it will work. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 12:21pm
I know of a few local spots I could have it 3D printed, I just need to get my hands on a design. I don't have access to design software anymore. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 12:37pm
| I’d like to know whether the available 3d printing material(s) are suitable for the application... I have little doubt the gear could be reproduced reasonably accurately. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 12:45pm
| Ahh, I wonder if they ever started making the Mallory gears again. I bought all the available ones up for the dealership back when I got wind they were unavailable. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 1:37pm
I just spoke to a local 3D printing source, they said they use MS1 tool steel that could be carborized, nitrided, heat treated, surface treated, welded, etc. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 1:37pm
I spoke to MSD and Mallory yesterday, both stated that they do not make them anymore. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 6:49pm
The voice on the phone at DUI will tell you that they have 302 RR distributors complete with a gear and they're made of cast iron for flat tappet cams. If you're looking for a gear to send out to be reverse engineered, I know "this guy" that has a new Mallory gear for a 351W that would probably lend it to you It's the same as the 302 gear except the hole for the shaft is bigger, 0.531 inches for a 351W 0.467 inches for a 302 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 7:11pm
Must’ve found some or had them made... wonder what they’d say about a gear for a roller. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 9:30pm
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I may need a sample gear, we discussed scanning a new gear and the one off of my distributor and doing an overlay to see how much it wore. We also talked about a more accurate way to measure using a Faro Arm. I’ll call DUI tomorrow to see if they have any information they would be willing to share regarding their gears. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 9:39pm
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Reading your story, It seems LSM needs to help you resolve this dilemma. They are the experts & should have alerted you to the difficulty in sourcing a NLA mating part. You can't be the only person to run into this brick wall. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: March-14-2019 at 10:01pm
LSM does 3D printing, so they can help with that, but they don’t print in bronze or composite. They are still looking into what they can do to help. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-30-2019 at 9:44am
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There I was driving down the road and Abracadabra came on the radio which for some strange reason made me think of this thread Can't help but wonder if you ever got a gear for the roller cam? |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-30-2019 at 10:03am
I heard of a guy once that bored out the smaller one to make it fit the bigger shaft and then even sleeved a big one to fit the smaller shaft. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-30-2019 at 10:10am
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This guy you speak of, he must be a pretty clever guy that only keeps it as original as he wants it And like to make metal shavings out of big pieces of metal |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: April-30-2019 at 10:28am
I may be a little late getting the boat in the water this year. I have some composite gears being made now. I managed to get 2 new cast iron gears for a 351, I sent those and my original 302 gear to a small gear shop in Chicago I used use for prototypes. They have reverse engineered the gear. The original plan was to have them cut them out of bronze. Fortunately, I found the company that makes the majority of the composite gears you see online for all automotive applications. They agreed to sell me the composite gear blanks (finishedand ready for teeth) for the 302, 0.467 ID. The blanks should be shipping to the gear shop early next week. I think I can still get the boat in the water the first week of June if all goes well with the gears. A little later than usual, however, we did get snow in Michigan this week, so I’m not missing much. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-30-2019 at 12:24pm
| Get a few extras made while they’re tooled up... I can think of a few interested parties! |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: April-30-2019 at 4:07pm
I asked for 12, I thought there may be some interest from others. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: May-02-2019 at 10:18pm
Here are a few pictures of the engine progress, I have finally had some time to start putting it back together.        
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-02-2019 at 11:07pm
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Nice looking work, I like the toys in the background better! ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-03-2019 at 8:46am
After all the blue and green discussion and a little bickering about green to go along with that, it looks like you must have changed your mind or that's really really odd Ford blue I seem to like your color choice. |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: May-03-2019 at 9:11am
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I poked the bear when I started the original color discussion. After some debate at home, we decided to go with something different. The gray and blue as the same shade as the stripes on the interior. I am waiting for a valve cover spacer to show up so I can get the covers and the risers on. The roller rockers are a little too tall for the original valve covers. I was going to get new valve cover but I saw a Few threads on here about some of the tall covers interfering with the manifolds. Plus I had my covers powder coated to match the pulleys. I didn’t keep it original, but I think it will look good. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: May-03-2019 at 9:26am
Great looking engine!!! Sometimes you just have to please yourself and not others. Even if it means that we won't take home the prize for Most Original. Keep up the good work. Like the toy collection too! Mine too is slightly "un-original"  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 3:42pm
My thoughts exactly Great looking project Steve - you'll be on the water in no time  ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Mille1sj
Date Posted: June-28-2019 at 11:53pm
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I finally received the reverse rotation composite distributor gear I need to run with this new roller cam. I hope to get it in the boat next week, I have the boat at a local shop getting a little gel coat work done where I removed the pitot and the old platform brackets. My wife and I just had a baby last week, so my project/garage time has pretty much stopped. The engine is back in and aligned, new shaft, coupler and acme 1210 prop added too. I thought I would provide an update, once I get the boat back, I just need a day or so to finalize a few things. I’ll let you know how things go once I get the engine running.  
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Posted By: chopperrescue
Date Posted: July-20-2019 at 5:56pm
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https://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x278/chopperrescue/7B9991D7-3B12-407E-AEBD-D65EA22F747A_zpsiwrxxwnp.jpeg Just purchased this 77 from a Neighbor of mine , boat has been sitting under shelter for last 7-years. Was hoping someone could help identify which engine I might have. Distributor is mounted about flush with intake . |
Posted By: chopperrescue
Date Posted: July-20-2019 at 6:07pm
| I’m also still trying to figure out how to post pictures from my phone , if this is the wrong sub please bare with me. Thanks |