351w crankshaft help
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47020
Printed Date: April-20-2024 at 5:38am
Topic: 351w crankshaft help
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Subject: 351w crankshaft help
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 3:09pm
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My ccw (reverse rotation) cast stroker 351w is eating its main bearings in 5 hours (less than 3000 rpm). anyone switched cast cranks on a 351w ccw engine? Any special mods I'm missing (directional polishing/oiling mods)? Any help is appreciated. My machine shop and I are scratching our heads. No apparent causes. Craig Nova24vdrive ps...ca engine appears fine at this point ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Replies:
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 3:21pm
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Oil foaming? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 6:36pm
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Oil contamination? Perhaps an oil analysis could point out potential causes. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: zwoobah
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 6:38pm
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Have you checked the crank for straightness? Use plastigauge for bearing clearance? ------------- 1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 9:28pm
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crank is off 1 thousand on #2. never used enough for foaming anyone using straight car cranks on ccw? ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 10:08pm
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I am on a 302. I told my machine shop what I was doing,they took it from there. Don't recall what they did or if they even told me- it was almost 30 years ago. The crank is a 1974 ish. I know that doesn't help much other than it can be done. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 11:09pm
Zwoobah—right on. Are you pre-oiling crank during assembly? Plastigage is critical to get the right clearances. Is the crank and bearing set matched (if crank turned down—bearings have to be matched to what was removed)? I assume you know all this. Just an odd thought—if you’re getting detonation and I mean severe—the load can cause the main bearings to distort and turn blocking oil feed holes and then things go south quickly. Doubtful that’s the cause here but just mentioning it. Saw this failure once on an aircraft recip when bad gas was used. |
zwoobah wrote:Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-27-2018 at 11:11pm
| https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media/local-media-north-america/product-files/ceb-2-1114-engine-bearing-failures-brochure.pdf" rel="nofollow - Causes of bearing failure |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 12:20am
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Interesting part about grinding and polishing a crank Pete. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 1:10am
| I agree Gary. Microscopic fuzz is an interesting concept. Grinding opposite direction to engine rotation and polishing in the same direction...... |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 1:30am
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the polishing certainly maybe the issue here. dunno. But could it do this in so little time and use? ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 8:08am
| I think there’s a much bigger issue causing failure. What do the crank journals look like? What image in the link best represents the failure? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 8:20am
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One thing I can't help noticing here is that you're speaking car talk on a boat forum. You seem to be referring to a CCW engine as reverse rotation. It probably makes sense to you and your machine shop but might cause some confusion here  If you're looking at it the way the marine industry does (from the rear looking forward) then a reverse rotation engine is CW or Right Hand rotating and a normal automotive engine is CCW or Left Hand rotating in the marine world Are these crankshafts you're using the older 2 piece rear main seal type or the newer 1 piece rear main seal crankshafts? Where did the stroker crankshafts come from? Have you talked to the manufactured? SNobsessed mentioned foaming and you said it hasn't run long enough. Foaming that he's referring to is the oil being aerated by the crankshaft as it spins due to sump level being too high and losing it's lubrication qualities. Is it real hungry and eating all the main bearings or just one or some of the bearings? Are the rod bearings OK? |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 12:39pm
| Can we see some photos of the crank main journals after the 5 hour teardown? |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 1:03pm
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rod bearings are ok. the mains are down to copper. the rods and cams show some sign of perhaps debris from the other bearings, or result of running low (4psi) oil pressure after the mains were toast. I'm having difficulty getting ahold of the crank manufacturer. I bought these stroker kits during a dark period for Coast High Performance during 2016. Although at time of purchase I was told it was a cast Scat, it looks like it may be a Star Galaxy Inc (SGI) which may be under at this point. I'm having trouble posting a pic here of the bearings. What I'm trying to find out is if other sbf guys are using auto cranks in a reverse rotation application. If they are, did they repolish the journals in an opposite fashion? Did they do anything special to the oil passages in the crank? . On the internet, everyone has an opinion. Since the machine shop and the crank shop haven't found any glaring deficiencies, Im reaching out here to see if. by installing a new crank without modifying it, did we overlook something that everyone else does. I figure many of you on this site are running sbf, and many may be reverse rotation, and I'm looking for first hand input. youtube video shows bearings in random order. 1 main bearing shell is missing (loaned to friend for inspection). it was as bad as the worst in pic. https://youtu.be/LOQcDlLTo9E ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 1:35pm
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%20" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/LOQcDlLTo9E bearings randomly placed 1 main shell missing, but as bad as worst. ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 2:17pm
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https://youtu.be/LOQcDlLTo9E ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 3:37pm
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PCM does list different part numbers for their RH and LH crankshafts for 302 and 351 engines. Even the later ones with no wick lines/helix lines and a 1 piece seal had different part numbers. I always thought it had to do with the chamfering of the oil holes in the crank and that a normal rotation crank could have the chamfers cut right so it could go both ways.and depending on the seal, you had to deal with wick lines on the older 2 piece setup, and with the 1 piece you just needed the right seal I would take none of my chamfering talk as gospel though without some verification
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 3:41pm
| I’m running a 1-piece 331 stroker kit backwards... so no issues with the oiling, generally speaking. I do not know for certain f it was polished in reverse (though I am always clear to specify this on my RH cranks when having them ground/polished). No way is the lack of polishing going to wipe your bearings after 5 hours though. What were your bearing clearances set to? What weight oil? |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 4:03pm
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10w30 I think 2 thousandth...maybe slightly more. 3 inch journal... maybe should be closer to 3 thousandth thank you...what I was looking for. Do you know if they repolished crank before installing? ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 4:10pm
Probably the same oil and same clearances as the normal rotation engine that doesn't seem to have a problem? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 4:17pm
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Better get confirmation... ideally the person setting the clearances also confirmed the block measured up ok and also sourced the correct bearings (to match the crank). And whoever did the assembly checked the clearances in place. .0020 sounds very tight. Should have been approaching .0030. |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 4:56pm
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keno...yes trb...block ckd ok. I think we will line bore b4 assembly to make perfect. and polish crank backwards. Since, at this point, we cant find anything glaring. ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 5:11pm
Never heard of boring just one main, we always align bore and hone all of the mains. We had a bar ground .001 undersize and would put the mains brgs in and torque the caps and then rotate the bar and verify that the block was still good. The bar was longer than the over all length of the crank. Our blocks would move around a lot. If your block is good, and your clearances are good then I would start looking for oiling issues. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 5:32pm
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the crankshaft is off 1 thousand on #2 journal. if we line bore...yes all of them. and straighten crank and polish and cut directionally ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 5:47pm
A production crank w/i .001? You should be happy as can be!!! How did they check it?? Most shops don't have the tooling to check any closer than that. Like I said, I would be looking harder at the block than worrying about a thou. on the crank. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 6:18pm
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he put the crank on a saddle on each end and measured the distance from a baseline. if the engine is set up with 2 thousandths clearance total... well I'm no expert ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 6:55pm
| While you’re still apart, might as well balance those components before assembly |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 7:43pm
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they have been. At time of purchase. Hopefully that wont change in the machining. thank you.. ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 7:58pm
Sure hope not! |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 8:05pm
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Change in balance????? What are they going to machine? The crank is only out .001 Surely they are not going to mess with it. Beginning to get the "Pete Syndrome" about your mechanic.  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 8:12pm
| I was suggesting if he never had the rotating components balanced to do it now. He’s already had it done apparently and he probably knows well enough it ain’t gonna change |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 8:44pm
| Buying a balanced asssmbly and having an assembly balanced are 2 different things. It all depends on the competency of the balancer and how close to balanced they can get. Also depends if you’re internally vs externally balanced... the former requires new balancer and flywheel as the Windsor is external from the factory- but you may get reasonable balance results if you buy an off the shelf rotating assembly (that’s balanced). External balance, probably best to use your actual components when balancing (this is always best, actually). |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 9:15pm
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they had everything but the flywheel, as I bought the damper from them also. ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 9:16pm
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what's the Pete syndrome? ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 9:33pm
It's when Pete questions how competent the mechanic is.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 9:46pm
That's only a small part of the "Pete Syndrome"
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Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 9:51pm
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lol I thought about that. I'm sticking with the shop. Next time, I'll go back to building my own maybe. ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 10:31pm
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As far as the balance goes, you mention that you got the crank and damper from the stroker outfit and must have reused the original balancer. Do you know if the damper is for 28 oz external balance to go along with your flywheel Or could it be an internally balanced rotating assembly with a damper to match and then you ended up with your imbalanced flywheel on it and now the whole assembly is out of balance and pounding the main bearings. Pretty much all the stroker outfits sell them either way set up for internal or external balancing depending on what you ordered If you're not sure, a look at the backside of the harmonic damper would tell you if it's for internal or external balance. If you do have a balance issue on this engine, the other one probably does too. |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 10:39pm
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I bought the 2 dampers as an option with coast high performance . I also paid them extra to get the two rotating assemblies balanced. externally balanced ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-28-2018 at 10:47pm
That should take care of any balance questions then
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-30-2018 at 5:06am
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Work had me on the road this week and missed this thread. I can share some engine bearing experience. Grinding and polishing are normally done in reverse rotations. By that I mean the grinding would be normally in reverse of rotation and the polishing favorable to rotation. When grinding the procedure leaves micro sized saw teeth on the surface of the crankshaft journals. These saw teeth look like teeth on a hack saw but only show under a microscope. When they polish normally this is done in reverse so the saw teeth get smoothed over and your surface is more friendly to the engine bearings. This is known as a favorable polish. Favorable to the direction of rotation of the crankshaft. This takes those saw teeth and faces them away from the direction of rotation and the polish smooths them even more so under load they are not breaking through the oil film and causing issues with your bearings. The bearings should never touch the crankshaft in normal operation the bearings and crank are separated by an oil film. Modern technology has most engines set up at .0015 to .002 engine bearing clearances. Old School had Main and rod clearance at .0025 to .003.. The modern clearances keep good oil pressure at idle. Old school oil pressure at idle would typically fall off 10-20 lbs. The loose bearings would leak that much oil dropping oil pressure unless you installed a high volume oil pump to mask the leaks. Tighter oil clearance has the side benefit of reduced oil on the cylinder walls which helps your rings control the amount of oil burned in combustion. Rings can only control a limited amount of oil so tighter rod clearances help build an engine that does not burn oil. As far as your failure it seems the diagnosis so far is all over the board. Engines are simple. If the crank is straight and ground properly, you have a good oil supply they work. When they don't work you look at the parts and the parts tell you where to look for the problems. The Main Bearings should have been numbered as they came out and laid out in a line. The crankshaft should have been laid next to the bearings and you study the bearings to see what can be learned. Don't look just at the face that touched the crankshaft turn the bearings over and look at the bearing backs. The backs should show no movement marks. They should look new. If a bearing moves in the block while running it is not properly sized to have proper crush. Any movement marks tell you the bearing was not crushed in place properly. The tangs on the bearings do not hold them in place, crush holds them in place. You can build an engine without the bearing tangs and have zero bearing issues. The tangs are only there to help the installer put them in the block properly. Once torqued the tangs do nothing, crush holds the bearings. When looking at the bearing faces, all your lowers on the bottom, all the uppers on top you will see if debris went through the engine, the bearings will show everything that went through. Large grooves, big debris, small grooves show small debris. Studying the uppers and lowers will show contact and wear by journal. You will see where your problem was. Go back wards from that to find out why that area had an issue. If it is an oiling issue the problem shows more far from the oil pump and less close to the oil pump. Now the bad news. If your engine has an oil cooler and oil cooler lines and this engine with this cooler had a previous engine failure that contaminated your oil supply with debris you need to trash the oil cooler and the oil cooler lines. In the engine business it has been proven over the years that a oil cooler and the cooler lines will trap small metal particles from an engine failure and if not replaced these metal particles will start circulating in the new engine as soon as your oil gets hot. This is true for all engines, Gas, Diesel and Performance. No business has yet figured out how to properly clean the lines and coolers to avoid this type repeat engine failure. From what you have said your bearings are down to the copper. This should not have happened for 200,000 miles of normal engine wear with clean oil supplied. You have a problem. This engine bearing failure material is now in your block and in all the oil passages. The oil gallery plugs should be pulled and all the galleries cleaned with warm soapy water, Dawn dish soap works very well in warm water. The warm soapy water works to break the magnetic effect in the block holding your debris in the oil galleries. Your engine, pistons, crankshaft, should all have been thoroughly washed with warm soapy water then dried, blown out with air and wiped down with oil to keep rust away prior to assembly. I have seen many engine bearing failures because the customer paid for a crankshaft grind and installed that re ground crankshaft without washing it. Even in the crankshaft there are oil passages that have to be washed with clean warm soapy water. You can wash out the oil galleries using a rifle brush with the soapy water, this works in the crank galleries and in the engine block galleries and is mandatory prior to assembly. Crank grinders are busy machining crankshafts to make money, cleaning for assembly is up to you. If you don't do this on initial start up the metal material from the grinding process will flow into your main bearings on initial start up, as soon as the oil gets hot the metal starts flowing . The bearings will try to save you by letting the metal embed in the bearing material, this works for small amounts of debris but a large amount will cause bearing failure. For Engine Bearings today there are now Silicone Enhanced Aluminum engine bearings. Federal-Mogul sold these as A500 material and that I believe is now upgraded to A600 material. I mention these new bearings because with the silicon enhancement the aluminum can now polish the surface of your crankshaft while you run the engine. With the new material a crankshaft can go in your engine with an RA of 25 and come out after 100,000 miles and measure perfect with an RA of 10-15. These bearings are magic for this. No copper bearing could offer anything like this. The A series bearings are bored so the surface is like super fine threads or the surface of the old fashioned record. These grooves hold oil and help it flow, they also help move any debris out of the bearing surface so the particles will make their way to your oil filter hopefully and not imbed in your bearings where they cause damage later. If you engine is less than 500 HP I would certainly run this technology. Ford started installing this A series bearing in all there vehicles in the early 2000's. I know machine shops that received engines in for rebuild at 150,000 miles with these bearings in them and the shop owners could not believe how perfect the crankshaft finish was. If you are bored take time and read about these bearings, they are almost the same cost as copper but offer a lot more for your buck. The technology has not proven to be tough enough for Diesels or very high horsepower cars yet but anything under 500 HP these are a no brainer. Study your used bearings, learn what you can, clean all your parts. Assemble the crankshaft in the block with all the bearings oiled. Before torqueing the caps rotate the crankshaft, it should spin freely. Start in the middle main bearing and torque to 25 lbs or so. Then work your way to both ends doing the same, alternating left side then right side. You are trying to bring the crankshaft and bearings into place evenly with no adverse torque on the assembly. At 25 lbs torque on all caps spin the crank, it should be smooth. If not take a brass hammer and rap all the caps down and try to spin the crank again. If it had a little drag before this normally fixes a normal alignment issue. Now torque to 50 lbs on all caps, start at the middle and work out again. Rotate again after the 50 lb torque it should be just a smooth rotating. If it is tight rap the bearing caps again with the brass hammer and spin it again. Normally this is enough to make it spin smoothly. Maybe 1 in 10 engines need this tap to help the caps seat. Bring the mains to full torque now, again, middle first work your way out. Torque it like a head gasket. Bring the caps down nice and even and straight so you don't create any alignment issues. If you have a line bore issue or a crankshaft that is not straight it will show up when you torque the bearing caps. A line bore issue will squeeze the crank and it will be tough to rotate all 360 degrees. A bent crank will have tight and loose spots in the 360 degree rotation. There is a lot more but this is the basics to start. ------------- |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: November-30-2018 at 7:55am
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Thank you ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-01-2018 at 4:24pm
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thanks again for all your input. And Mr.McD, thanks for putting so much into your response. I think we've got a plan. I'll hopefully be posting happy news in a few months. Craig ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-01-2018 at 9:04pm
I bet some people would like to hear the plan
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Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-02-2018 at 12:41am
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let me visit machine shop first! ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: December-02-2018 at 12:15pm
[QUOTE=428CobraJet] My ccw (reverse rotation) csst stroker 351w is eating its main bearings in 5 hours (less than 3000 rpm)./QUOTE]  For the last 10 years, and hundreds of engines, our engine life expectancy average was between 4 and 5 seconds. We buy pistons 100 at a time  . I think you are doing great at 5 hours. (had to add a little humor to your issue)Good luck on the next build, hope your guy finds the source of the failure. Duane ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: December-02-2018 at 4:45pm
8,000+ HP would be an amazing experience -- even if it was just 5 seconds... ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-02-2018 at 11:08pm
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In Top Fuel, do you still adjust your tune by measuring how wide the Rod Bearings are after a run to see how much detonation you had in each cylinder or have modern electronics replaced this old test. 20 years ago the babbit rod bearings would spread and pound out making them wider if you had detonation issues. In the early 90's I was told one of the Top Fuel Team owners poured his entire concrete driveway over pistons, similar to creating exposed aggregate in concrete he had exposed piston heads. Said they cost so much he wanted to get some return out of the investment. I don't know how many were in the driveway but it was certainly in the hundreds. There is absolutely nothing on earth as intense as standing close to two top fuelers when they launch. Your entire body vibrates from the horsepower explosion. I can't imagine what it would feel like in that drivers seat. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-02-2018 at 11:42pm
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ok...so engine idle oil pressure kept going down.. 4/38 vs cw engine 40/60.. Finally pulled at 5 or so hours. never over 3k. Of course, Duane says anything of 5 seconds is gravy!!!!! machine shop says looks like crank surface is destroying bearings. Crank shop says main #2 out 1 thousandths. magnetic. several places say grind/polish directionally, including Clevite. 2 marine engine builders I was referred to commented about the directional polishing. One of them (and Mr. McD) said only debris would cause damage that quick. I visited with mechanic that set up the marine stuff and worked with running engine on stand and such (with me). This motor was difficult to turn over from the beginning. required special cables, and made us question batteries when on our jerry rigged test stand. Several folks are running auto stroker kits in their sbf ccw applications over several years. GaryS. TrBenj. one of the marine engine builders from the far North. Apparently non issue. AND...this was the third motor, as the 2nd grenaded on cam breakin. Machine shop thinks dropped valve. I think holed cylinder. He warranted. 25 minutes run time. So, in light of all this....slight bend in crank combined with wrong polishing direction caused issues imho. Grenadine of second motor may have caused bend in crank. get crank ckd and directionally polished and straightened. closely ck block, line bore as necessary. replace oil pump (and bearings and redress custom cam) that's what I plan to talk with machine shop over. btw, he assembled both (well, all 3) long blocks to oil pan and intake. Boat restorer, his mechanic brother, and I took it from there. They are both friends of mine. Although I rebuilt the 390 in my Ranchero, I was so overwhelmed with the dollars being spent on the restoration of the boat, I decided to get expert help on the engine assembly. Thank y'all so much! Craig  ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 12:14am
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Just to clarify Craig mine is not a stroker but a standard LH 302 automotive crank now running RH ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 12:56am
👍👍👍 ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 7:00am
Not to be a Monday morning quarterback, but that quote above sure seems like it should have raised a red flag or two at the time |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 7:33am
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yep my hindsight is 20/20 ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 7:43am
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At least you know where to start . I think I'd be calling it a warranty job with the engine guy I figure that all will be good this time around
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Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 10:51am
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Quick question. When the block came home from the machine shop did you guys pull all the oil plugs front and back to wash them out before building? I think Ford has them yes? The plugs that fill the ends of the oil passages in the block. I blast a few whole cans of brake clean thru those and the crank ever since I lost a new build to dirt 30 years ago. Never assume that because it was tanked that its actually clean. You would be surprised at the *************** that comes out a "wrapped and ready crank.". ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 11:06am
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the machine shop built the long blocks, with damper, intake, and oil pan. ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 11:27am
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I guess I could have read it better. I'm sure they know better than I, Good luck and thanks for keeping everyone informed. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 5:18pm
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The engine turned hard right from the machine shop certainly opens a warranty issue. However if you noticed the engine was hard to turn and ran it anyways a court would share the blame to you. I believe they use the standard " what would the common man do". If it turned hard right from the beginning the issue is most likely not related to clean parts or debris in the oil galleries. That type damage happens after it fires up and the oil gets hot while running. The hot oil will lift the debris and flow it into your bearings. Failure will happen but would not cause a hard crank before start up. ------------- |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 5:34pm
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Common man? The engine assembler has a responsibility for his work. If the dang thing won’t turn, it is clear to me he failed to do what he was hired to do. A common man has little to no knowledge as to what reasonable resistance to turning over the engine might be. I don’t think there’s shared blame. I think it’s poor workmanship X 10. Get a jury of common men—they will help plaintiff prevail. |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 6:29pm
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I've got a ton of money in this boat. Many times what I anticipated originally (and probably 10x what I could liquidate it for!). I'm lucky, as a retired teacher, that I could do it. Its beautiful. The engines represent maybe 20k. The machine shop only a small portion of that. Its probably the best Nova24Vdrive out there. I'm not looking for blame. I'm looking for the cause so that we can all rectify it. The machine shop owner couldn't find an obvious cause. I reached out to you guys because so many of your boats run the blue oval...in small block form. More than anyone else except, perhaps, Shamrocks. I also reached out to the CC Commander and Donzi Restoration fb sites because there are some ccw Fords in there. These guys are not Walmart. These are artisans. The machine shop came highly recommended by a car/motorcycle shop i deal with (who is extremely demanding). The Machine shop received boxes of parts from me (as opposed to tired but running motors). I knew nothing about them. We ended up sourcing different blocks, stroker kits, and 1 head. Marinization stuff/breakin were done 70 miles away by me and the restoration guys/friends. And this is custom work. He's a gentleman, well regarded in the machine shop end within the Houston area, and a pleasure to deal with. I am not holding his feet to the fire. I'm thankful he's easy to work with. I will deal with him again. It will cost me some money, but I'm confident I'll be treated fair. It's just teething issues. And, as we all know, owning a boat is a source of joy no matter the minor ups and downs. I sincerely appreciate all your comments and suggestions. You told me things I couldn't find elsewhere. And I'm not even a Correct Craft owner (I own a 1967 390 powered Century Arabian in addition to the BossaNova). :-) Craig ps...1st splash in April. Me on the right. David (brother of Restoration shop) on port side. https://youtu.be/w5fucqpyOys going under bridge in August testing oil pressure validity https://youtu.be/Smn_j-Pn4sQ ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 8:40pm
edit: I posted this before seeing the above post, yet I still stand by my post. Duane
There is NO way that .001 out on the crank scrapped this build. I doubt that the builder could duplicate his .001 error in the crank checking it the way that he did. Guys .001 is nearly nothing in a span of 24 inches. I still feel that there are two contributing factors that must be resolved before another build is performed. 1. Verify that the block is straight. I highly suspect there in lies the problem (needs align bored) At the very least it should have be deemed a good block to build on. 2. Have someone check this guys work or take it elsewhere. He obviously dropped the ball when he sent an engine out the door that was destined to fail. Tight rotating assemblies don't get better. They get hot and seize. This guy holds all the credentials to be a "back yard hack" (in the words of our Grand Wizard) Warranty or not I would not be comfortable with another job from that assembler. NO good builder will ship an engine that is "tight" on rotating. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 8:47pm
| Sure seems obvious that there was insufficient clearance on the mains. Either the machining/bearing matching wasn’t done right (or verified, or both), or something is either bent or not straight. Tight when assembled = bad. If it were an oiling issue, I’d expect the rods to suffer first- not the mains. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 11:10pm
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Since the Crankshaft is aftermarket you might consider having it ground .010 undersize. Any oddities would show up on the crank grinder. A crank polish will probably cost $40 while a grind and polish might be $100-$120. Money well spent to have peace of mind. This crank ate a set of main bearings o the surface is compromised right now and will at least need a polish so a grind/polish is not a big step up. AER in Dallas is well known and builds thousands of engines for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan and Mazda. They know how to grind a crank with proper finish. For many years most of the GM rebuilds sold at the GM dealerships were built by AER. ------------- |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-03-2018 at 11:19pm
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The crank is at a place in Houston...Pete's Crank Grinding and Repair. Waiting for a decision from me. But, yes, plan on turning and polishing directionally, demagnetizing, straightening... ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: December-05-2018 at 1:15pm
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new development...just heard results of magnaflux of crank. 1-1.5 inch crack. I'm guessing caused by dropped valve of 1st engine...but dunno sounds like the cause of whole mess. Best news I've had in a few weeks. ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-05-2018 at 4:34pm
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You can rap on a crankshaft with a small hammer or piece of steel. If it rings like a bell you have no cracks. If it makes a thud sound it is cracked. Quick and easy test. Obviously you don't hit it on any of the machined surfaces and you don't hit it hard, just a tap to make it ring. ------------- |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: July-08-2019 at 10:56pm
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ok...we swapped in a new crank. all is good. testeded boat up to 50mph/4000 (needs more prop I believe), and the port engine stuck a valve! back to machine shop, redid valves on that engine (too tight in guides) and hope to never go back there!!!! now sorting cooling system. waterpump vibrates and off comes hose to engine. questioning mounting as the factory setup is a real 'Debbie Downer' because of the vdrives and deep v ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-08-2019 at 11:42pm
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Thanks for your update and very sorry for the bad news. I witnessed the stuck valve issue after rebuilds many times over the years. The story is normally the same. " we took the engine to the machine shop got it fully rebuilt and then did not get a chance to start it for nearly a year" The engine is built correctly but the GASOLINE in your tank ages quickly. Old gasoline can turn to a varnish like product. It causes the valves to stick. If you put your nose near the carburetor you can smell a strong smell when this happens. In one case I went into a friends Machine shop, he was having a conversation with an Automotive Shop owner, 50 year old guy that had run a great shop for years. Without giving me any hint at all the Machine Shop owner asked me to walk with him and this Shop owner to the rear of his shop where the engine tear downs take place. When we got within 10 feet he looked at me and asked what happened to the engine on the bench. The smell is so distinct that I quickly told him "someone used old gas". Now the Auto Shop owner looks at me and says he has been arguing with the Machine shop owner about this for 30 minutes already. I took him to his block and showed him the varnished tops of his pistons and the sticky varnish building up on his valves. He apologized to the Machine Shop owner and said he could not believe he never saw that before. Once you smell it you don't forget it. Not a bad smell but a strong smell and the pistons come out almost Pretty. Looks like you varnished them on the piston head but when you touch it you find it sticky. The good news is normally a cleaning and set of gaskets gets it running again. Clean out the Fuel Tank and dump the old fuel. There are other things that can do this but based on the age of these posts I think you might be into old fuel. Sorry, I bet I witnessed similar old fuel issues 20 times. Stabil is sold to avoid this but if you read the fine print stabil only claims to work for 6 mos. Sea Foam advertises the same thing but Sea Foam claims to be able to keep gas good for 1 year. Any untreated fuel over 6 mos old is suspect Please let us know what you find. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: 428CobraJet
Date Posted: July-09-2019 at 12:22am
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new tank. pumps lines, carbs. all new. he said...he set both engines too tight because he didn't figure the 140 degree thermostat... not buying. but fingers are crossed ------------- You are what you drive. 1971 Nova24vdrive 1967 Arabian |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-09-2019 at 12:39am
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There is not doubt coolant temp changes clearances. Glad it is not old gas this puts repairs back on the shop. Ask what clearance he gave you on the valves both exhaust and intake and ask what your piston clearance is to the cylinder wall. Also need to know what type piston is in the engine, Forged or cast, aluminum or hypereutectic. It all makes a difference in a marine engine. Good Luck, I hope you get it running strong soon. ------------- |