Mayonnaise at the end of the season
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47063
Printed Date: April-28-2024 at 9:25pm
Topic: Mayonnaise at the end of the season
Posted By: Kristof
Subject: Mayonnaise at the end of the season
Date Posted: December-17-2018 at 5:41am
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Hi y'all, It's been a while since I've posted here. Been around reading though, no worries... But the awesome weather and my second hobby (RC flying) have kept me away from forums and such  So regarding the topic title... It was (luckily) the end of september and two buddies and I went on the river for some barfoot runs before the training of our waterski club. First run went as the always go. Issueless. Second run not so much. I cut the throttle after my barefooter let go and as I want to throttle back up to get him, the boat is shaking all over the place... Idled back to our dock and from there a friend towed me back to the marina. My first thought was: ignition. I knew my spark plugs and cables, distibutor cap, rotor and points needed replacmement. But after having replaced all these, the engnine still wasn't turning right  My buddy Jo and I continued troubleshooting and when I pulled the dipstick out... Mayonnaise! "Well Jo, I found the issue I guess", I said to him while showing him the dipstick. "Yup", he replied, "better start shopping for some gaskets haha". So as I was preparing for my NATO mission in Lithuania, we winterized the boat and put her to sleep. We plan a little meeting among boat friends after the winter and we will pull the engine out... Nothing a few tech savvy buddies, some wrenches and some beers can't fix... We will have her back on the water next spring  Anybody have some GT-40P heads laying around they want to get rid of...? I can arrange for the US Air Force to ship them to my base here in Belgium ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Replies:
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-17-2018 at 9:17am
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I would want to check for water in the cylinders ASAP and do a Comp test before any disassembly. The only source of water that should require you to pull the engine is a cracked block. Good luck with the fix! Oh, and don’t dip your fries in it! |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: December-17-2018 at 2:27pm
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Intake manifold gasket failure? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: December-18-2018 at 4:43am
I'll keep that in mind  Maybe we will pull the engine and maybe not... Depends on what we gonna do... Revise it less or more. Time will tell. (Would love to put some GT-40P's on there...) But, it is evident we will do a compression test and a leak test before going crazy... And cilinders were water free and sprayed abundantly with mistery oil before winter storage. ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
TRBenj wrote:Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: December-18-2018 at 4:47am
We'll go step by step... But we are pretty much convinced it's a head gasket failure. It isn't my mechanic buddies first rodeo... Nor mine.  Anyway, gaskets will be ordered for: intake manifold, valve covers and exhaust manifolds. I have the head gaskets already. ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-18-2018 at 10:08am
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I would be quite surprised if it’s a head gasket failure... though it is possible. You’ll want to do a bit of testing before tearing down, else you may be scratching your head once it’s disassembled. Head swaps do not require pulling engine... and you don’t want to bolt them down to a cracked block!
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Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: December-18-2018 at 4:25pm
I know... We won't pull the engine for just that.
I sure hope I don't have a cracked block...  You really think it could be cracked?  Tim, what do think this would be in your expert (I regard you as one of the experts on this forum) opinion, just out of the top of your head? Anyway, we'll do some serious testing first (leak test, compression test to start with) ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: December-18-2018 at 4:40pm
I am not Tim but agree that head gaskets are far from likely, assuming you haven't recently overheated the crap out of it. Your plan to test compression is a great place to start. Once that passes then it is likely exhaust manifold/gaskets, possibly intake crack, maybe a block crack but not likely if it has good compression. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-18-2018 at 4:56pm
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A couple of years ago Tim helped me diagnose one of mine. Turned out to be an exhaust manifold. I had run it first and had found a sparkplug that hed been "steamcleaned" so I had an idea of what side to look at. A very small leak between the riser and manifold leaving a track in the manifold was the confirmation. Did not take much water to make a mess. Good luck and post up some pictures of what your flying ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: December-19-2018 at 4:25am
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Now I am a little confused... How can water mix with the engine oil at an exhaust manifold or at an intake manifold? Or is my understanding of an engine completely out of wack? And all my spark plugs were nice coffee cream (or latte for the hipsters) coloured and dry for the record, we checked them all (twice even). Oh and also, if it is the exhaust manifold, why does the enigne sound and feel like it's running on 7 cilinders intead of 8? Didn't overheat the engine (I am one of those people that keep an eagle eye on temp gauges, in all vehicles running on a motor)... Just want to learn and get as much info as I can you know... Thanks for all the help guys. ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-19-2018 at 9:29am
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Crack in the water jacket of the intake (or gasket failure that extends towards the valley) will allow water to enter the valley and mix with oil. Crack in an exhaust manifold or riser gasket failure will allow water to enter the exhaust (gas) area of the manifold and gravity drain into a cylinder (or several cylinders), then drain past the rings and enter the crank case. Like Joe said, a failed Comp test will identify a leak path in the upper cylinder or combustion chamber area (cracked block or head, head gasket). Lack of water in any cylinder likely exonerates the exhaust. I would have perhaps expected a steam cleaned plug if the leak was coming in the cylinder/piston area. Can’t think of why it would “run on 7” if there is no evidence of water in a cyl... let’s see what that compression test tells you. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-19-2018 at 5:49pm
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Tim warned you not to let it sit with water in the cylinders. Tim is spot on. Your cylinders may be perfect today. If you let them sit with moisture in there all winter you will need to bore and hone that block and get oversized pistons. Your cost will go up by a multiple of 5. If you really have to leave it for several months pull all the plugs squirt a lot of Oil in there and rotate the engine a few times by hand. Then re install your plugs to keep moisture out till you have time to fix it properly. The same is true for your crankshaft and camshaft/Lifters. If you have bad oil full of water in there get it out and run it briefly on new oil to move the new oil into all the important spots inside. You will save money and time fixing this. I would fire it at home with no water in the system with the new oil and run it for less than one minute. You can take off the belt from your Raw Water Pump to avoid damage. Running for less than one minute at idle will not overheat it but will get new oil fed all into the system. Then relax till you have time for a proper diagnosis and fix. ------------- |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: December-22-2018 at 7:03pm
Hi Kristof - just saw your post, been busy myself and decent boating weather has long since left us here in Kansas. Certainly not what anyone wants to see, even at the end of a season. But to the question at hand, yes I do happen to have a set of GT-40P remans setting around. Bought them for my boat last year and ended up getting a whole new long block instead so if you're still interested, PM me. A plus is I'm only a few miles from McConnell Air Force base so transfer would be quick & painless. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 6:13pm
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Update with pics... So, Joe (gt40KS) was so very kind to provide me with some gorgeous looking GT40P heads, for which my gratitude will always come short! And also thanks to Joe (joeinNY) and Tim (TRBenj) for the info they provided me. Armed with all this and the help of my mechanic buddy (and some beer off course), we started the tear down of the engine... And yes, we said "never mind the compression test and all that, let's just tear her down and go from there. So we found a mix of water and oil under the valve covers as expected but almost nothing on the right side compared to the left side. Cylinders are all in perfect shape albeit for some minor build up on the piston heads (no water). Exhaust and riser gaskets where also in good shape... I'll let the pictures speak from here:      ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 6:49pm
| So where did the water come from? |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 10:00pm
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Pull the circulating water pump and inspect. Another possibility. Good Luck, Steve |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 10:06pm
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Timing cover is the inspection point. Gaskets interface w/ oil galleries in the blocks. Steve |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-02-2019 at 11:16pm
| Upon closer inspection, exhaust manifold(s) look highly suspect. That’s where id put my money. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-03-2019 at 3:42am
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Your back cylinder in the photo above had water in that cylinder. See how the piston head is cleaner that the others. Water in there while it is combusting will steam clean the piston head. Either exhaust manifold for that cylinder or head gasket is letting water into the cylinder. ------------- |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-03-2019 at 3:53am
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Thanks for all the pointers. All the parts will get thoroughly cleaned and all gaskets will be replaced.
So should I really pull this one too? Damn, just ordered gaskets at Skidim and these are not in my order...  ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: April-03-2019 at 4:54pm
I'm thinking this was a suggestion to inspect these if there didn't seem to be an obvious culprit when tearing down the top end. Based on your pics above and observations of others I'd say you're good without tearing into the pump. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: April-03-2019 at 5:11pm
I'd agree McD. I blew a head gasket on my last boat after I supercharged it. The cylinder was positively shiny in comparison to the rest. Kristofs is not nearly as bad so I'd be leaning more toward the exhaust seal, especially being the back, lowest cylinder. Kristof, just make sure you R & R the riser gaskets on both sides ... probably don't want to do this again very soon ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-03-2019 at 6:00pm
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And pressure test the manifolds. Every time I’ve had water in the cylinders (and the resulting milky oil), it was due to a cracked exhaust manifold (or 2). Maybe it’s the language barrier, but the message above doesn’t seem to be sinking in.
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-03-2019 at 8:35pm
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Tim, can you weld the manifolds to repair or is replacement the only option? I have seen some shops that can weld cast iron now using new techniques. The hard part is welding and not distorting. ------------- |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-04-2019 at 5:51am
I got the message... I promise you I will be a good boy and pressure test the manifolds But just to be absolutely clear... Pressure test manifolds as well as risers right? Edit: can I mount the manifold and riser back together with the new gaskets in between. Then put them on the bench in a position similar as on the boat, connect the garden hose to the water inlet of the manifold and let the water run. Then check the exhaust inlets if there is water trickling down...? ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-04-2019 at 8:58am
I got the message... I promise you I will be a good boy and pressure test the manifolds [/QUOTE] Kristof, I never had my doubts that you got the message. Your English is better than Tim's! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-04-2019 at 10:40am
I am still not Tim - but cast iron can be welded successfully sometimes. High Nickel rods along with extensive cleaning, preheating, and controlled cooling are required. Even then the success of the process often depends on the quality of the casting and the particular location being repaired. There's a good radiator shop around here that will give it a shot for about $150 bucks but no guarantees. They are batting .500 on the manifolds I have had them try, maybe a little less in that the one that worked they needed to touch up a few small leaks after the fact. The one that didn't work would just crack again next to the weld while cooling. Those were external cracks, something internal that would leak into the cylinders is much more complicated. At those prices/risk it is generally not worth the effort for any cast iron manifold that can still be bought new. PCMs are hard to pressure test, but as this happened during the course of the season and ice was likely not involved the gaskets would be the primary suspect. Filling with water and looking for leaks is a good first step. Planning on cleaning up the surfaces and replacing the gaskets at this point would seem to be warranted on a refresh of this extent even if there was no water in the oil last season. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-04-2019 at 3:05pm
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Joe, Thanks for the cast weld information. I saw a process known as cold welding and wondered if that could work. They flow high volume air on the weld as they weld so the surrounding metal does not get hot. You can weld and pick the part up with a bare hand no glove right as you finish welding. I was wondering if this technology had migrated to fixing cast iron. Tim, is TRBENJ, I originally responded to his note about cracked manifolds. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-04-2019 at 3:48pm
Cold welding typically refers to welding (often aided by pressure) of clean surfaces in a vacuum - We do that where I work. It is also what happens when I let the green lake prop shop sell me a stainless prop nut instead of a brass one. I haven't seen the process you are referring to yet but would be interested to, although I would have to give it some deeper thought on whether it could help with the problems of stress cracking in repairing castings - you would have less overall expansion and shrinkage but higher localized temp gradient which is why it cracks next to the weld - I'd need a beer to figure on it proper. Pretty sure I met that TRBENJ fellow before... and half sure he is sending me cracked exhaust manifolds in the mail today... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-04-2019 at 4:02pm
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UPS says end of day! If you need more I got piles of em. None as shiny tho. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-05-2019 at 1:24am
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I was in a Cam Grinding shop and they were using the Cold Weld process to weld up the bearing surfaces on Hollow Camshafts like you find in the Ford 4.6L and 5.4L. I should explain these cams are lower cost to manufacture, they take a hollow tube and insert all the cam lobes into the correct positions at the factory and then blow a Steel ball bearing through the tube. As the ball bearing passes down the tube it expands the hollow shaft locking the cam lobes and bearing surfaces in place. Believe it or not the process has been working since the late 90's. They are lighter and cost less than a traditional cast iron cam shaft. The hollow shaft is pretty hard to work with but this process allows them to oversize the bearing surfaces with the cold weld and then grind it on the cam grinder to size. Allows them to oversize bore the overhead cam Heads to save the heads with bore damage. If a cam journal is damaged in the overhead valve heads which are aluminum it is hard to repair so before this process new heads were purchased. The air flow was very high speed and very noisy to witness but it worked very well. They welded all the journals in about 1 minute and handed me the camshaft. It was warm but not hot. I think the process will open the door to many more repairs that previously could not be attempted. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-05-2019 at 10:52am
We would call that Spray Welding, often the only option to rebuild the older RH cams if they are excessively worn - pretty sure the one in Reidp's 413 that lives in my boat was resprayed and then reground. I haven't seen anyone using that technique on cast iron manifolds personally but don't see any reason why it couldn't work ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: April-05-2019 at 12:41pm
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We spray welding all the time in our business. Parts we sell are so expensive and often times unavailable. Lots of guys used it on larger engine blocks if the deck height is below specification. They need a solutions when Cat decides to not stock a part and a 300,000 dollar machine is down because of a 2500 dollar part. Would be an interesting test to have one of our vendors re spray a stock cam and re grind. |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-12-2019 at 6:11pm
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Update: Pressure tested the exhaust manifolds with the new gaskets. No leaks! Engine rebuild coming to an end. All parts refitted and torqued to factory specs (the techincal manuals I downloaded and printed from the reference section here came in handy! But had to convert all the ft lbs numbers to newton meters we use here in Europe  ). My old pushrods and rockers (who are in perfect condition) all fitted perfectly in the new GT40P heads. We turned the motor by hand several times to check and re-check. We gave several parts a fresh coat of paint (intake manifold, heads, exhaust manifolds, coil,...) so the motor looks a little nicer     Next on the menu: drain the remaining oil. Put new oil in. Start her up and adjust timing with the timing lamp... Let her spin for a while. Then drain oil again and put fresh oil in again... And when all is well and running fine, this little upgrade will be fitted also:  And a friend of my friend offered to make a stainless steel Y-pipe for a sweet price, so I can get rid of that butt ugly invertaflo muffler ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-12-2019 at 6:14pm
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BTW, guru's... Are the timing specs mentionned in the technical manual accurate? Or is it different due to the new GT40P heads? ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: April-12-2019 at 10:07pm
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You want 10 degrees before top dead center for your ignition timing. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-13-2019 at 9:19am
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Thanks for the info JQ ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: April-13-2019 at 10:44am
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Everything is looking great Kristof! And just in time for the first spring run ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-16-2019 at 4:15am
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------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-16-2019 at 2:50pm
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Glad you got it fired up. Nice Work. ------------- |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-28-2019 at 7:15am
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So.... Last week after getting back from Paris with my lovely wife, we decided to get the boat in the water for a test run... After letting the motor slowly warm up, looking at all the gauges on the dash with an eagle eye, listening to the engine making beautiful music with no strange sounds whatsoever, I "dropped the hammer" a few short times to see how she reacts... It's a beast! It's like a whole new boat... She shoots out of the hole like a maniac and climbs in the revs in no time. No WOT yet, because I want to let everything set in a few more normal runs. I used to be able to pull 10 skiers on my showteam with the previous setup, but now I am pretty much convinced I can pull the required 12 people for our 4 tier pyramid... We will see how that goes this coming season. Meanwhile weather has gone worse so I will have to wait untill it improves again to run her some more on the water. And after a few more runs, we will start the conversion to electronic ignition... Thanks again to Joe (gt40KS) for making this possible! And thanks for all the help and info from others on this wonderful forum! Now... Let the season begin! ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-28-2019 at 11:18am
| Confirmed no mayonnaise after the test run? I’d be keeping a constant eye on it to confirm you fixed the root cause. |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: April-28-2019 at 2:09pm
Good to know everything is back together and you are getting the performance you had wanted! Sounds like you're going to have a blast this summer with all that newly acquired horses  As Benj says, keep an eye on that oil for a few more outings, but if you've run it for a while already and there's no sign of issues, I'd say your chances are good everything is OK. Have a great season .... and let's see some pictures !! ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: April-29-2019 at 9:53am
No mayonnaise anymore, just nice clear oil. Checked the dipstick multiple times during the test run (shut down a few times)…
I sure will check and re-check quite a few times, before I myself am convinced everything is running as it should... ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 8:33am
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Update: Engine is doing great. No leaks anywhere and oil is still nice and clear.. The wife and I made a long ride on the boat last wednesday, letting it warm up easliy and checking everything from time to time and using a variety of throttle inputs. Then I decided to see what she does at WOT... Well... She shoots out of the hole like a jaguar running for it's prey and climbs in the RPM's like it's nothing... WOT is 4900 RPM and 76 Km/h (47,22 mph) Kinda happy... ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 8:47am
 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 11:00am
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Congratulations! I just love a rebuild that starts, runs and performs as planned/advertised. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 3:28pm
NICE!!!  ------------- |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 4:37pm
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Awesome Kristof - always good when a plan comes together!! ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 5:42pm
I too am impressed since all they are used to working on over in Belgium are dinky engines with turbos on them! Kristof, Again, great job. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-05-2019 at 7:22pm
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And Diesel Fuel! ------------- |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: May-06-2019 at 5:21am
Still, you would be surprised how atmospheric V8 engines are quite popular over here. Problem is that with all these ignorant climate idiots, you won't be able to drive them anymore with their "Low Emission Zones"...  And I love the torque of my six-cylinder-turbo-charged-two-point-five-liter-BMW-diesel-engine  ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |