Rudder Play
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47075
Printed Date: April-28-2024 at 7:37am
Topic: Rudder Play
Posted By: beardo73
Subject: Rudder Play
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 12:10pm
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Happy Holidays, all! So, boat is in the heated garage, time for winter projects now that Christmas is over. When going over the boat, I noticed that there is some serious rudder play going on. I am 99% certain that nothing was hit this past season, but it just really seemed like there was a lot of play side to side. When I jumped into the boat and looked under the gas tank to see it from the inside, I am not sure what this should typically look like, but it almost looked like the metal plate holding everything together was seated into the fiberglass a bit. The nuts on the bolts of this plate are also pretty loose. I am apprehensive to tighten anything down as to not mess anything else up that may be going on (pulling metal plate through the fiberglass, cracking fiberglass, etc.). Does anyone have any insight as to what I am experiencing? I apologize now that I did not get video or pictures. I will work diligently to get this uploaded to help with diagnosis. Other things to note: Boat is an '88 Martinique B/R with a 454 PCM motor. The boat did/does not take on additional water other than what is typical. Steering while in reverse in the boat was not great, but I believe that to be typical of direct drive boats. Forward steering seemed to be pretty good for the most part, but I did feel I could cut starboard side much better than port side. Lastly, I am new to this 'boat mechanic' stuff. So, please, be gently, lol. Also, the more English, the better. I will not know all the part names and stuff like that. I will upload pictures/videos to help. Ultimate question: 1. What do I need to do to fix this? Thank you guys for the help! Happy New Year, only 5-6 months till boating season in Western, PA!   ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 2:46pm
I don't know quite where to start, but let's just say loose nuts are never a good thing.  I'd try to tighten them up and if you're crushing fiberglass while doing it, that'll tell you something right there about the condition of your stringers The stringers in the boat are older than you are and the chances of stringer rot are pretty good . You may have good wood inside the fiberglass or you may have mush or something in between .30 years later, the wood is not gonna be as good as it once was and it's worth a check There's also a ball and socket setup on the steering cable clamp block that wears with age that you should inspect. One thing to keep in mind is that a little slop at the stringer mounting point or between the ball and socket translates into a lot more slop at the rudder. You can also check where the cable hooks to the tiller arm for any slop there. A little slop there also translates to more slop in rudder movement Lots of places to get slop, but since you mentioned the loose mounting to the stringer that's a good place to start |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 3:06pm
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Loose nuts are never good. Glad that I've gotten most of mine tightened down since college. Now, to just get the boat figured out. Lol. Thank you for the heads up on that! I hate hearing (reading) the 's' word... but, with a boat that surpasses my age -- I'm certain it is only a matter of time. The floors are very solid in the boat, and the motor mounts are all in good shape-- but, I have seen instances where the damage is pretty concentrated to a particular area. The good news is that the latter parts you described are all snug as they should be. From what I can tell, all of the play is coming from that base plate. Your explanation of "a little wiggle here can exacerbate the situation down the rudder." Which I can say is entirely true. The base plate moves about 1/4" up and down inside the boat, but when moving the rudder, it appears to be moving 1" to 2" side to side. I'll work on getting those tightened down and see where we are after that point. Hopefully we have some good wood under there to tighten this up and move right along! Thanks again! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 3:19pm
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Kinda popped into my head after the post but does your clamp block mount to a stringer or maybe to a piece of angle aluminum that bolts to the hull with the same nuts/bolts that hold the strut in place? I was assuming it bolted to a stringer but you know what happens when you assume.
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Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 3:27pm
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I tried to hang with you on this one.... but... I am lost. Lol. I am thinking that pictures *might* help with this one, but not entirely sure. I am not even sure that there is even a spot to get under the layer that I can see to figure that out 100%. In my own engineering, the angled metal option makes much more sense to me. I am not sure how they would invert the bolt, have it secured to a stringer, get that through the floor to attach all of these dingy's, and then screw the nuts down... I am no engineer and they make some pretty amazing things out there, but, the angled iron under the layer of fiberglass does make some more sense to me. I will keep you posted. I might need to make a stop tonight and get the pictures.  More thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 6:16pm
  ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 6:27pm
 This is the part I am talking about. Doesn't look exactly the same... but it looks like it would do the same job. Pictures/video coming tonight. Thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 6:34pm
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Derrick, This concern of Ken's is why Larry posted the pictures:
IE: If your clamp block is loose, you will have lots of rudder play. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
KENO wrote:Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 6:41pm
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Gotcha! Yes, that is the case. The block is certainly loose. Is there any need for concern when tightening everything back up? I am unsure if the bolts are mounted to angled iron below the fiberglass or mounted to the stringer. Any good ways of telling? Apologies if this is a novice question. I am after all, a novice boat mechanic. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 6:49pm
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Derrick, If the clamp block is mounted to a stringer,there is no metal under the glass so that means there could be rot in the stringers. Tighten up the bolts, see what happens and report back. Also, I believe you mentioned the boat turns better in on direction? The position of the torque tube in the clamp block will affect rudder throw ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 6:52pm
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That is correct. Turns much better on starboard side. I'll snap pictures to help with those issues. For now, I'd just love to get everything tightened back up. I'll do a little work and report back. Thank you all for the help! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 6:55pm
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I’ve never seen a lagged clamp block- they’re all through bolted. If the MQ is like the similar v-hull Bfn, the other end of the bolt may be inaccessible without invasive surgery. Rudder port bolts loose by 1/4”? Yikes. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 7:20pm
You can't go by the throw of the rudder since prop torque needs to be factored in. So, throw port to starboard will not be the same to get the same degree of turning in the water. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 7:31pm
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Derrick Your head is probably spinning right about now. Don't get too excited till you have some pictures posted. Some parts are meant to move, like the block pivoting on the mounting ball so the steering is smooth. You may have a big problem or a small one and the pictures will help. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 8:17pm
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https://youtu.be/BxHEuijup9U ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 8:18pm
This is the first video showing the rudder port and the play with these components. Second video to come of rudder play when it uploads. Pictures probably tomorrow. Thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: jimsport93
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 8:22pm
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Definitely a loose rudder port Will wait on the rest of the crew for further advise on the proper fix. Won't be long ! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2798 - 93 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 8:25pm
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https://youtu.be/Xv3AJLsgs40 Link #2 of the actual rudder movement. Thank you in advance for everyone’s expertise. I’ll upload pictures tomorrow of more components. Also, starting to think this part has been replaced before I took ownership... I’ll post my supporting evidence with pictures. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: jimsport93
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 8:31pm
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Derrick, watched the second video. Yea, that needs to be fixed/secured. How long have you had the boat? How much have you driven it ? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2798 - 93 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 8:38pm
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I’ve only had the boat for 1 season (8 months right now). We put 23 hours of engine time on from mid June to September. I put it in the garage for the winter and started going over everything and noticed the play. I certainly want it secured and tightened up! The boat ran great, it was an awesome time this summer. Steering in reverse has always been off, but I just figured that was because of the direct drive. Now that we are out of water, I think it can be attributed to a little more than being off or direct drive, lol. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 9:00pm
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Well a video is worth a whole lotta words I think i want to wait and see Pete's reaction to this I figure it'll be full of exclamation points!!!!!!!! and full of comments about backyard hacks and maybe even dealers and or repair shops depending on who did the previous "fix" Don't let us down Pete The good news is that the boat didn't sink for some inexplicable reason. More good news is that you'll be good at fiberglass work when you're done with this. TRB's BFN project would be a good read for you since he did a lot of modifications in the rudder port area. I figure he'll be along with some advice. Run out and buy a lottery ticket or 2 cause you're one lucky guy since that didn't rip out under power. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 9:04pm
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Derrick, Yes, as the video shows, the port sure is loose. I recommend not simply a tightening but rather removing it first. This way you will be able to clean up all the old bedding compound and then re beading it. 3M 4200 would be my choice since it can be removed if needed at a later date plus has adhesive qualities and great sealing too. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 9:14pm
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That sounds like a good idea. Will I need to do any reinforcements to the hull/flooring? Will I be able to reuse the rudder port or would it be advised to get a new one? ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 9:51pm
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Derrick, The port looks great and hopefully it simply came loose.. However, check for wood backing that's in the glass to make sure it's not deteriorated and the cause for the port loosening up. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 10:00pm
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Thank you for the information! Excellent stuff! I feel better already. Now, does anyone have any tips for disassembling this setup and getting it apart?! Maybe even putting it back together as well? Thank you all for the help and support! I lost some sleep over this one. Already feeling better! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-27-2018 at 10:21pm
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Remove the tiller arm off the rudder being careful since the rudder may fall out of the port. Remove the packing gland at the top of the port. This is the big "nut" and small jam nut under it. Then after removing the four bolts that hold the port in via the backing plate the port should come out of the hull. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: samudj01
Date Posted: December-28-2018 at 1:23am
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Pete has you covered on how to and that the rudder may come out. Have someone else under there with a set of hands on that rudder. Or a block to hold it up so it doesn’t fall out. A drop on concrete would be aggravating. ------------- 78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409 Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-28-2018 at 7:59am
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You say that you think it was a previous fix and you'll have pictures to show why. That'll be a good thing Seeing how the upper plate is cocked from side to side I'd definitely be looking at the structural integrity of what's under there. Maybe you'll be lucky and have no damage and plenty of strength On the trailer, I seem to see a prop guard under the rudder which may make removal a little more complicated than mentioned above if it's right under the rudder,
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Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-28-2018 at 9:50am
So, I actually didn't get any pictures from the parts that made me believe it's a previous fix.... Small chance I will get there tonight before going away on the weekend to get pictures of it. But, I did get pictures loaded onto the computer for some other steering components! Here they are:     Also, thank you all for your answers and help! I will certainly make sure that I have an extra set of hands to catch the rudder when taking it all apart. The prop guard on the trailer will hopefully not be an issue, but, we will figure out a way to get that off. I am going to avoid questions of "what-ifs" until I get in there and can see whats going on. At this point, just hoping that there isn't any significant damage to anything that supports those pieces. The other thing that is concerning me is how did this get so loose so fast? Just seems odd... I can't help but think that if something super serious was happening, Ol' Sparky would be at the bottom of the river! Hardly had any water in that boat... ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-28-2018 at 10:22am
When underway, did you notice any vibrations and cavitation? Both can be caused by a prop out of balance and or a bent prop shaft. If the bolts holding the port weren't properly tightened or if there is backing in the glass that's deteriorating, then the vibration would loosen the bolts more. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: December-28-2018 at 10:42am
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Very, very minimal. I can't remember any vibrations of any sort from this past summer. I was also trying to be cautious of sounds/feels while out this summer being that it was my first with the boat and it is older than I. But, like I said in posts prior, the boat ran fantastic! I am quite shocked that it ran so well and yet I am having this issue... I wish I called off sick today so I could have a little more time with the boat and getting in there to see whats going on ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: January-28-2019 at 1:11pm
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Okay. So, I finally got this all disassembled and the rudder removed from the boat. Rudder port is also out. The good news is that the rudder port and rudder are in excellent condition. No issues there, whatsoever. Now, for the issues. I didn't check to see who speculated what the issue might be, but, they were spot on. The wood sammiched between the fiberglass is shot. Gonzo. It was crumbled. Pictures posted of what I have now. What is my next step? I have a feeling this is now going to be fairly involved. I don't really care for any comments saying the boat is shot, or I shouldn't do it, or any of that. I need solutions or how anyone may go about getting this fixed and strengthened. This is my boat and only option for boating this summer. Unfortunately, a new G series is not in the budget. Nor is a replacement late 80's Martinique B/R... My initial reaction is to: 1. Get the dremel out 2. Cut out a square (much larger than the rudder port square size), not through the bottom layer of glass though 3. Put in some marine grade wood in the cut out square 4. Epoxy/silicone the crap out of it 5. Drill the holes for the rudder port bolt holes/rudder shaft hole 6. Re-fiberglass the thing on the top layer 7. Reinstall rudder port and rudder while using enough A4200 Marine Adhesive. I am a little stressed about this now. Any and all help would be super appreciated. Thank you all in advance!        ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: January-28-2019 at 2:50pm
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I would change your plan to include precoating the plywood (doesn't need to be marine) with thinned epoxy. You can buy CPES or thin it yourself with Xylol (about 25% works good). Sand down the area the plywood sits on. Skip the silicone seal altogether. Butter up the sealed ply & the cleaned up recess with epoxy (you can thicken it if you want, more stuff to buy), & assemble with some weights until epoxy cures. Then over coat with 3 or 4 layers of cloth or mat, each layer larger. You can do more than 1 layer at a time, If you precut & have it layed out handy, you could do all in 1 shot. Drill out the holes & then coat ID with epoxy. A good source for materials is Composites Plus. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-28-2019 at 2:52pm
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Did the previous owner say that it “may need a new steering cable”? LMAO. Most thorough stringer threads here include the replacement of hardware backers etc... check those for how-to’s. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: January-28-2019 at 2:56pm
I like this idea of doing that pre-coating to the fill-in piece. That sounds like it would work nicely. Also, thank you for the tip on staggering the top piece of the cake. Didn't think about that, but certainly a good plan. Thank you for the help and insight! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: January-28-2019 at 3:00pm
No mention of that. I am certain the seller would have been more than willing to disclose any knowledge of things in need of repair. Have continued to keep in contact with him and would definitely offer his knowledge. Is this one of those things that should be done while in there messing with all of this? I have done minimal reading on this process, but have seen it mentioned in other threads. Didn't think it to be an issue at the time. Might be more of one now. One step at a time, one breath at a time. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: January-28-2019 at 3:08pm
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You woukd know it if cable is bad. No big time savings doing it at same time, but if you have extra money, it will steer like butter with a new cable. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: January-28-2019 at 3:20pm
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Lol. That makes me rest easy. Yes, no problems with steering last summer. I think I will just wait on that upgrade. Thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-06-2019 at 1:13pm
Do you have any recommendations on which brand of CPES to buy? I was hoping to order it off of Amazon today. That would allow it to be shipped in time for the big Saturday boat work-day. I hoped onto Composites Plus and didn't have any immediate luck finding materials to buy from their website. When "buttering up the sealed ply," would I be using the 3M 4200 sealant/epoxy? Or some other type? Thanks for the help on this! We cut out the area of bad wood back to where it is better quality and not falling apart. I am anxious to get this back together to get started back on the other projects. I will try and post some pictures of the most recent progress this weekend. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-06-2019 at 3:26pm
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I'm only aware of 2 companies who make a CPES product,Smiths and Git Rot. There may be others but those two are good. You need to post pictures before you go any further,you will need to get all the wood out that supports that rudder port and replace it with new. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-06-2019 at 3:44pm
Jamestown and Mas both have a low viscosity epoxy. Here's Jamestown https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=97636" rel="nofollow - Total Boat ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-06-2019 at 3:46pm
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Thank you for the tip! I saw Smith's, but will check it against the "Git Rot." (Also just saw email notification of another response-- I will check out the other suggestions, too.) I will get pictures out as well. I have all of the wood out that is around that rudder port area. Not sure what is worse at this point -- dealing with rust on cars or rotten boat wood, lol. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: February-06-2019 at 5:54pm
| I used coosa board in place of the wood. ground area up to the stringers and tied it all in and filled any pocket that was aft of the rudder post so water would not sit there any longer. My layup was way over kill but at least it wont fail. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-06-2019 at 5:57pm
Do you happen to have any pictures from your repair? Interested in this idea. Thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: February-07-2019 at 10:47am
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I didn't use coosa but aircraft flooring panels in my rebuild on my mustang. Same principal needs to be followed using coosa, or fir or something other than plywood. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35920&PN=4&title=foots-timbobs-new-72-mustang" rel="nofollow - Foots Mustang ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-07-2019 at 11:07am
Too bad we all don't have access to "obtaining" the panels. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-07-2019 at 11:37am
Thank you for the note! I am having trouble viewing pictures from that thread... I will play with some things here in a bit to try and view them. But, I am liking this idea of the coosa/HDPE options more and more. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-07-2019 at 11:56am
I wouldn't recommend the HDPE. It will not bond. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-07-2019 at 12:40pm
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Anyone have a good source for coosa board? Maybe even a source that would sell a smaller cut piece? TYIA ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: oldskiboat
Date Posted: February-08-2019 at 4:51pm
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Hi there, I have a similar issue with my 75 Southwind 20. I removed the rudder and rudder port today and luck was on my side the wood is okay. What I saw was a bit of water around the base of the rudder port while the boat was on the trailer. What seems to have happened is that the bedding material failed. Can't complain about that after 45 years. I spoke to Correct Craft support and Steve told me they use Sikaflex-291 White Polyurethane Adhesive. Ordered that also through Amazon. I am also going to be injecting some get rot just to be sure. Regards, Gary ------------- Gary The Villages Fl. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1392&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975" rel="nofollow - 75Southwind 20 |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: February-08-2019 at 5:12pm
| were are you located, i can send you what you need. |
Posted By: oldskiboat
Date Posted: February-08-2019 at 5:14pm
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If you are answering my post, I have already ordered what I need. Thank you though. ------------- Gary The Villages Fl. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1392&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975" rel="nofollow - 75Southwind 20 |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-08-2019 at 5:15pm
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I am in Slippery Rock, PA if talking to me. Lol ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-08-2019 at 5:17pm
I have read a lot of good things about Git Rot. Will be looking for some when I get my mess sorted a bit better. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-21-2019 at 10:54am
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Okay. Finally got some pictures of what I have going on. I have my replacement piece of wood cut, I am getting some cleaner for the fiberglass, and want to stick this piece of wood to that fiberglass and finally glass over top of it. I was even thinking of re-enforcing this even more with some steel bracing and bolting that to the stringers. Is that overkill? I am more than open to suggestions, ideas, concerns, anything to help! I have toyed with putting the 3M A4200 sealant between the bottom layer of fiberglass and the wood, but also thought about doing resin. Ideas there?? Thanks again for any and all help! --Note: Will be doing the 3M stuff for the brass rudder port plate and backing/bolts/etc.      ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-21-2019 at 11:00am
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Also worth noting -- the bottom glass is not cracked in the rear. It looks like it, but it is all good there. It looks like it could have been an uneven pour of resin/fiberglass on the mold or something like that. Should I level that up before continuing with repairs? Thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-21-2019 at 11:07am
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Derrick, No need to make the steel bracket to reinforce the area to the stringers. With glassing in the backing, it will be plenty strong. I mention glassing since I feel you should be using resin (epoxy preferred) and glass and no on the 4200. Keep the 4200 for bedding the actual port. Make sure the old glass is clean and you should grind it to the point were you see glass and not much old. resin. I would also suggest pre priming the ply with CPES or thinned epoxy resin. Then bed the ply in some thickened (cabosil or chopped glass fiber) resin. Over the top should be several layers of glass and resin. Each layer should be larger than the previous so the load is spread out. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: outerbanked
Date Posted: February-21-2019 at 4:56pm
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https://www.westsystem.com/instruction-2/" rel="nofollow - https://www.westsystem.com/instruction-2/ Take a look at these guides. The boat construction book talks about layups, fillets, thickeners, and all sorts of info that will help you understand the product. Packing tape is another great tip as you can peel the tape right off after epoxy is hard. You may want to oversize and countersink both sides of your plywood’s holes then re-drill. This would completely seal your wood and is a trick described in the fasteners section. These methods apply to “fiberglassing” in general. |
Posted By: outerbanked
Date Posted: February-21-2019 at 5:18pm
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Read up on filler / thickeners. Resin by itself is weak. It is a glue. The strength is increased by using fiberglass fabric of different weights, weaves, mat, carbon, etc Fillers such as colloidal silica, wood fiber, microballons, etc. Doubling or tripling up on surgical gloves is also helpful. You can peel off a layer and be back to a non-sticky hand. Apple vinegar is also a better smelling clean up tool for skin. Much nicer to your body than acetone. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 11:43am
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Thank you all for the tips! Much appreciated. I have worked with fiberglass in the past, but only on cars. I have complete faith in the system, but there is a part in the back of my mind that says if it isn't watertight -- or strong enough... The boat will be at the bottom of the river But, I'm sure we will be good with all of the tips on here. Planning on getting it all started this weekend. Few questions, though. 1. Should I still coat the ply in CPES even though it is already treated? 2. When I mate the new ply to the bottom fiberglass, would Tiger Hair be an appropriate product? Plan was to put Tiger Hair down, place ply in, put weights on ply to get it down, let it cure. 3. How many coats of resin/fiberglass matting (pieces will be bigger each time) should go on top of the newly installed ply? Thank you all again for your contributions! Last night I got the bottom resin/fiberglass all scored up and ready. I used acetone to clean it, but will do that again before we start the fun stuff. Happy Friday!   ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: oldskiboat
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 11:54am
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I was looking at your pictures. The only thing I noticed between what you have and what is in my 75 Southwind 20 is that the plywood is 3 inches thick in the Southwind and quite a bit smaller in surface area. I would say about 12" wide by 18" long. ------------- Gary The Villages Fl. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1392&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975" rel="nofollow - 75Southwind 20 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 11:55am
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Derrick, I didn't realize the ply you are using is treated. It doesn't look like it from the picture. Ok, treated ply is NOT recommended. The treatment for rot doesn't like resin and can interfere with the bond. Regular ply with a CPES is the way I would go. Any high strength filler that will fill in any gaps between the hull and the new ply backing will work. Just stay away from the low strength fillers that are "easy to sand". Over the top of the ply glass depends on what you will be using. With matt, a couple will do it. With a lighter glass fabric, I'd go 3 to 4. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 12:12pm
Gotcha. That makes sense to me. Would it be better to use solid wood instead of ply for this piece? I will make sure to swap out the wood for a better piece for this application. Sounds like the Tiger Hair long strand will be perfect. And good to go on the matting for the top layer of the cake. Thank you for all of your notes and help! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 12:16pm
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Derrick, Stick with the ply. With the grain direction alternating with each veneer layer, it's stronger in all directions. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 12:32pm
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Sounds good! Will certainly do that. I will take pictures of everything this weekend and hopefully have a good complete journal of the process when it is all done. ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 3:06pm
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If the treated ply is fully dry, then it should accept the tiger hair OK. IMO, the load is mostly compressive, so you just need to hold it in place. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 4:28pm
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It is fully dry. I know how some PT wood comes... Soaking wet! This has been in a heated garage for a long while now. I have read a bunch of conflicting reports everywhere. The trend I have been seeing is that if it is dry, it will stick no problem. If not, no chance it will stick. I am thinking about getting something to measure the moisture content. That will be telling and should provide enough info on which avenue to go. Thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 7:03pm
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I rebuilt an outboard runabout transom with treated ply 15 years ago & saw it still running on the lake last summer. Slice off a sliver & see how long it takes to catch fire with a match. (Outside of course). Right away = good to go! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 7:18pm
 Chris!!!! Wouldn't this be more accurate?  Basic meters are around $20. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: February-22-2019 at 7:24pm
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Yes, but matches are cheap & so am I! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-23-2019 at 11:18am
Lol! Simple and effective. I like it. I think we are going to be very good on it. Will try to update and progress made. Thanks! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-23-2019 at 11:21am
 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-23-2019 at 11:31am
Simple but I'd say not very effective. Next time I unload a fresh unit at the HD, I'll do an experiment. A unit is so wet that our small fork lift is maxed out. I'll get a sliver off it and see what happens. I'll bet it will light. It's the center of the stack that hasn't been exposed that's real wet. Derrick, You'll be Ok since you mentioned the ply has been sitting around for some time so it's probably as dry as it will ever get. Sorry Chris but I have to say you are damn cheap!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: February-23-2019 at 6:40pm
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Should be no surprise my quote line is from 'ol Ben! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: February-25-2019 at 1:17pm
Alrighty. So, here we are. This weekend we got the replacement wood piece in with Tiger Hair, and got the first layer of fiberglass matting over top of it. The second should be going on tomorrow night, worst case Wednesday night. I'll evaluate after that and see if a 3rd layer will be needed. Everything went down very smoothly, set up nicely, and seemed to be VERY firm in there. Hopefully there will not be a reason to ever take this out  Pictures are from everything this weekend:     Thank you all again for the help and notes! It has made this process a lot easier! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: March-03-2019 at 12:21pm
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I have a (hopefully) quick question before moving onto the next step. I have the holes drilled for the bolts and cutout done for the rudder port. I am going to be sealing this all together and bolting it down today. My question is this — when I am putting the rudder back in the rudder port, should I be putting any type of lubrications on the shaft of the rudder? I’m having a hard time telling what was in there before, if anything. Just want to make sure I do it right putting it all back the first time! Thanks in advance for the help! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: oldskiboat
Date Posted: March-03-2019 at 7:13pm
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Mine uses a packing cord. I put three layers between the nut and base making sure the open ends do not line up with each other. When the nut is tightened the cord prevents water from coming into the boat. It also lubricates the cording. ------------- Gary The Villages Fl. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1392&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975" rel="nofollow - 75Southwind 20 |
Posted By: oldskiboat
Date Posted: March-03-2019 at 7:15pm
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Here is URL to a picture of a prop shaft, but the principle is the same: https://www.google.com/search?q=boat+packing+cord+for+rudder+and+prop+shafts&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=tQ98VWXvSMflcM%253A%252C2Mk7W2SICKqOsM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kSo96SkbImXMDwbblq942AXU_BWjA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiK57i5_ubgAhVEheAKHZMUB9sQ9QEwAnoECAMQCA#imgrc=tQ98VWXvSMflcM: ------------- Gary The Villages Fl. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1392&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975" rel="nofollow - 75Southwind 20 |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: March-04-2019 at 9:45am
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Hmm. Very interesting! I can't seem to recall if any cords fell out when I took this sucker apart, but that looks to be exactly what I have going on. Is there any special cording that I need to be using when putting this back together? What size would I be looking for? Thanks for the help! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-04-2019 at 11:52am
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If you look in the big packing gland nut that was screwed to the top of the rudder port, you'll find the rings of packing. Then you can get new packing if you want to. Use the same size that was in it Go to the SkiDim website and you'll find packing. Or follow the link https://www.skidim.com/products.asp?dept=1118" rel="nofollow - link A little grease on the rudder shaft before you put it into the rudder port will hurt nothing
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Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: March-04-2019 at 12:00pm
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Thank you for the link! I got both sizes since I am not near the boat and it is cheap enough. Shibby -- the shipping was more than the parts! $7.20 for the parts and +$14 for shipping! lol. Oh well. Small price to pay for a gasket that keeps the boat afloat. Thank you for the help! I snapped a few pictures of the rudder port and through bolts in there. I didn't get a chance to 3M seal it in and tighten everything up. My extra set of hands was a bit under the weather this weekend. This week, though!  ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: March-18-2019 at 2:45pm
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Complete! 3M sealed up and everything is assembled again. All the holes lined up. Got everything sealed. Rudder is put back in. Steering components also hooked up and straight. Now just ready to water test and make sure the new packing holds. I will be sure to have some tools close by to tighten it up if it does happen to be leaking too much. Rudder is firm and in place. Nothing like it was to start this winter season! Thanks to all who contributed knowledge and insight to this project! Onto the next... ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: March-18-2019 at 2:48pm
 Not the prettiest... but we won't be looking at it all that much! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: oldskiboat
Date Posted: March-19-2019 at 2:10pm
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You may get a drip drip from the top where the nut clamps down. That is normal. It should drip the same way from the prop shaft. If it is to tight at the rudder it will be hard to turn the wheel. ------------- Gary The Villages Fl. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1392&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975" rel="nofollow - 75Southwind 20 |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: March-19-2019 at 2:15pm
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I have read that a small drip is okay. I will be doing a water test to see if I have any. I tightened down the nut pretty secure and the first turns of the wheel were tighter than normal, but after going through the full range, it was buttery smooth. That is where my nervousness comes in hoping that I have it tight enough. A quick water test at the boat launch should provide some insight as to how we are doing. Like I said.. I will have tools with me to tighten up if need be! But, as it sits on the trailer -- seems as if we'll have some smooth sailing! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-19-2019 at 2:28pm
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You guy's are killing me The reason you need the prop shaft to drip is to lubricate the packing so that it does not over heat and not so tight that it wears the shafting,done right it only drips as the shaft spins. How fast are you steering ? Three to four thousand revolutions per minute? Once the packing settles down tighten the nut until it does not leak. If you leave it leak at rest you may come back to a boat overnight on the bottom... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: beardo73
Date Posted: March-19-2019 at 2:48pm
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Playing the newbie card now... lol. Thank you for your insight there. Sounds like it is something that can't be adjusted unless it's close to water. Water = lubrication. Too much water = submarine. Is anyone near Pittsburgh area to offer in-person guidance on this?! ------------- 1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-19-2019 at 4:12pm
Gary is correct!! Tighten that rudder gland down so there's no dripping unless, as Gary mentioned, you are cranking that helm at 3 to 4 thousand revs per minute! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |