Operating Temp and Auxillary Instrumentation 302
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47126
Printed Date: April-29-2024 at 10:39am
Topic: Operating Temp and Auxillary Instrumentation 302
Posted By: wiscofoot
Subject: Operating Temp and Auxillary Instrumentation 302
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 5:16pm
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During my educational overhaul of the cooling system on my '76 PCM 302 last year, I replaced or repaired most of the parts. Most were near the end of life anyways. Put in a new engine water pump, rwp impeller, hoses, Tstat (160 deg. from Skidim). Eventually found the culprit to be seaweeds in the trans cooler. After all that happened I found that the only time I get up to operating temp is when I am at WOT for several minutes. Pulling skiers or cruising I don't usually get above 120-130. I have verified the TStat opens up at approx. 160. The engine and trans both have coolers inline before the RWP. 1. Has anyone else experienced this? Should I try a different Tstat? I could restrict flow after the RWP but I don't like the idea of that. 2. Thinking about putting in a bank of auxiliary gauges. Some redundant and some new. Would like to measure oil temp, voltage, and additional water temp measurement. I was thinking about pulling water temp at one of the block drains since I already have valves there and could put a tee and plumb it easily. Where would be the best place to get an oil temp reading? I was thinking after the cooler but the easiest install would be off a tee I already have installed at the oil pressure sender. Right now I have the oil pressure sender and a mechanical gauge on a tee. The sender I got pegs out the gauge as soon as there is pressure so I use that and a glance under the cover at the gauge to confirm good oil pressure. I'm sure it just an improper matchup between sender and gauge. Looking for input from the veterans. Thanks ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Replies:
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 6:25pm
| Issue #1 could be an inaccurate gauge or other sender/gauge issue. I’d pick up a cheap IR thermometer to confirm. It’s a handy tool. |
Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 6:28pm
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Did that already. Confirmed the gauge is reasonably accurate and the engine is running cold. ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 6:36pm
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It seems like you've had a cool running engine, then a hot running engine and cool again What's changed since the threads linked below ? http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42694&KW=&title=302-will-not-get-warm" rel="nofollow - link 1 http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43144&KW=&title=g20-reduced-flow-under-load" rel="nofollow - another link |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 6:40pm
A picture or 2 of the engine showing the cooling system from the front would be a good idea too 
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Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 6:54pm
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A lot has changed but looking back it appears I have gotten back to square one. The boat ran cold when I got it, I messed with a bunch of stuff, and ended up missing the contamination in the heat exchanger. Immediately upon cleaning it out it started running cold. Is there a way to upload pictures from mobile on this forum? ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 7:07pm
Do you know anything about the cooler for the engine? Did a PO add it? It's an oil cooler correct? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
wiscofoot wrote:Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 7:57pm
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If you want to upload mobile pictures, try the linked thread below. Read the stuff written by outerbanked starting about 2/3 of the way down page 1 on how he does it. It means nothing to me, but it sounds good and probably works http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46923" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-14-2019 at 8:43pm
| Or photobucket... seems to be working again now with big watermarks |
Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 11:01am
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Thanks guys. I've read into this before. My problem is I only have an iPhone and a work computer that has all photo backup websites blocked. In the future I will probably use photobucket off my phone.. Pete, no info on the install of oil cooler. It was my understanding that the 302 with 4 bbl of that era included an oil cooler from the factory. I'm planning on pulling the boat out of the barn after work. I'll take some pics but I think I will start installing my auxiliary senders and gauges tonight. ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 11:39am
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No (engine) oil coolers on any pcm’s I’ve ever seen that I can recall. Do you mean transmission cooler? I wouldn’t expect an appreciable difference in engine operating temp with a cooler in the loop anyways... suspect something else is going on. No holes or anything drilled in the thermostat, are there? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 11:54am
| Get in touch with vintage ski gear larry, 75 Tique, he has helped people like you get pics posted before. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 12:20pm
I wouldn't expect any appreciable engine temp differences ether. The reason I asked is maybe a PO has been messing with the cooling system. I hope some pictures will give us a clue. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 2:28pm
Cole If you were to send the pictures to the guy on the other end of this e mail address , he'd probably post them here for you keno439@gmail'com I suppose it's your choice on "auxiliary instruments" but I'd spend the money making sure the instruments you have now are good or replacing them. with new ones Your idea of using a drain plug for temperature won't give a very representative temperature compared to the installed sender near the thermostat. You'll find a pipe plug in the manifold pretty much directly across from the sender that would be the water coming from the cylinder head for the other bank and should be the same temperature water as the sender is seeing.. |
Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 4:38pm
No holes in the Tstat that is installed. I have seen recommendations for doing that on other forums and ones for sale marketed as "offroad/racing" that come with holes predrilled. Link for TStat that's installed- https://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RP026002 Got frustrated trying to solve the overheating and decided to stop using autozone t stats, and shortly after installing it I found the weeds in the oil cooler. Hopefully can get pics tonight but I am not going to be running the engine for at least 2 months so I will put this engine temp question on the back burner for now, maybe. I'm quite sure there is an oil cooler on the raw water suction that is NOT the trans cooler. I remember using a 24" piece of hose to connect it to RWP. Curious why you guys think that an oil cooler wouldn't have a significant impact on engine temp. ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: woodyelc
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 6:01pm
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FYI. The engine oil cooler came on that motor as stock from PCM. They later found it was not needed and stop using them. ------------- woodyelc |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 6:04pm
Woody, Which engine is that? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: woodyelc
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 6:05pm
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Look at the manuals in the reference section and that cooler was used in 74 and look at the other manual middle picture you will see the oil cooler. ------------- woodyelc |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 6:08pm
More water flows through the engine compared to oil. Also water jackets are located closer to the source of heat ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 6:11pm
| The boats I’ve owned and driven with oil coolers added did not run appreciably different coolant temps. Obviously oil temps add lower. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 6:14pm
Woody, How about a link. I looked and I'm not finding the picture. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 6:57pm
Pete Your search skills are kinda crappy today Here's a link to a Manual , see if you can find page 6 and read it and look at the pictures too It says the cooler is for the 351's http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/pdfs/waukesha.pdf" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 7:10pm
Thanks Ken. I wasn't thinking Waukesha since Woody mentioned PCM. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 7:17pm
Let's assume that the oil cooler dropped engine temperature a bunch like you're thinking, then let's look at the function of the thermostat. If the water coming from the engine was cooler due to the cooler oil, the thermostat would throttle itself in the closed direction to maintain temperature, not just sit there and let temperature go down, assuming your thermostat is working right and there's no bypass flow around it.. That heat from the oil would end up in the water passing thru it raising the inlet temperature to the engine too. Why did you get a 160 degree thermostat instead of a 143? Send pictures of the coolers, thermostat housing and manifolds . |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 7:22pm
I got that same manual with a 76 SN back in 77 and spent a fair amount of time trying to find the non existent engine oil cooler. The boat had a PCM with an older Waukesha manual. I seem to think that was back in the "tight money days" for CC I did see one with a cooler at the dealer way back then. It was around a 73 or 74 on a 351 |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 7:39pm
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I think Tim and Pete are wrong with a cooler not helping. I'll bet it over cools with the relatively cold marine coolant . Every 90's Police Package Windsor came with an engine oil cooler. I know for a fact all our '90's work Ford 250 5.8s came with an oil cooler. They were plumbed into the cooling system with an adapter that was sandwiched between the filter and block. Radiator coolant was run back to it so when the engine was warmed up the oil was cooled by 200+ water. If Ford didn't think they were needed why did they go thru the engineering work to put one in? Remember these are the guys who don't put drain plugs in differentials and transmissions to save .50 cents a car..... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 7:44pm
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Ken, What do you think? I have a feeling phone company trucks and police cars had oil coolers because the drivers of them sat in the AC all day long on those hot days! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 8:02pm
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The engine oil coolers are going to influence oil temps Gary... the relatively small ones we’re discussing won’t be noticeable in terms of steady state engine operating temps (cooling system). Maybe you’d notice a longer warm up time but I suspect not. I’m not entirely speculating here...  The Waukesha/Pcm cooler is probably a tad smaller. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 8:09pm
In the 90's we didn't have GPS so we didn't need air. We drove back to the central office and hung out there. It was cool in the summer and warm in the winter Then around 01 we got GPS and soon after all the new Chevy's had air. Turns out they didn't do it for us but it cost them money to delete it. The GPS kept track of how long the truck ran and they would let you know weekly how long your truck was running.  I think I actually hold the unofficial record for the coldest temps and the least run times. Our boss used me as an example one week at around a half hour of idling time. I got alot of dirty looks from the rest of the crew because they knew what the boss didn't, I had an electric heater in the cab and ran the bucket generator all day It was actually better because I could lock up the truck and leave it as I worked and didn't have to worry about the keys being in it.------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 8:42pm
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So it looks like we all agree that an oil cooler has no appreciable effect on engine coolant temperature for a variety of reasons. (except Gary) I also think that thermostats aren't a precision piece of equipment especially in an open cooling system like a raw water cooled engine has. You can do a search on CCF or any boat website if you think that's not the case And.............I also think that TRB's coolant temp sensor wire is bent at a weird angle and needs to be reoriented so it looks prettier and isn't stressed as much And I also like his color choices |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:01pm
Ken, Speaking of stressed, check out the port side coolant line from the manifold to the riser.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:03pm
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Ha. Probably fixing a leak at the sensor-manifold joint. **No wires were injured in the filming of this episode** Still have mixed feelings on the black. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:06pm
Belt and suspenders as the riser joint is jacketed... please send a link to a 1.5” radius 5/8” diam 100 degree molded hose with a 1.5” offset and I’ll clean it up. 
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:07pm
Don't you dare change the colors Pete, I was keeping that one in my back pocket but It is kinda a perfect spot for a short formed hose at the front of those risers Design issue, not Tim's doing |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:13pm
A couple of these would help too:  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:19pm
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Armchair engineering... Those would hurt more than help... it’s the offset that causes the issue. Straight barbs nearly touch as it is, those angles would require a 260deg loop to connect! Barbs came preinstalled, blame Dana. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:21pm
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Poor Wisco, he's gotta read thru all this sidetracking, hope he enjoys it I hope he's taking some pictures to send. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 9:24pm
Just run 3 ft of hose from the left manifold to the right riser and another 3 ft the other way
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Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-15-2019 at 10:27pm
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Pulled boat out of barn and removed duck boat from garage after work so I could get pics of oil cooler. Fiancée pissed that I am already “playing boat” in January. Will try and upload later tonight after I get home from dinner(bar) and read through all of this. This forum stuff is fun. ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 7:50am
http://www.hps-siliconehoses.com/hps-silicone-180-degree-u-bend-elbow-coupler-hose.html" rel="nofollow - Tim, You need a different armchair   ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 9:15am
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You’re right, that does look much worse. I like ken’s 3’ hose idea better! |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 10:07am
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Only 3 weeks in must really be getting cold ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 10:15am
| Gosh, what is wrong with the hose in that photo? What's a better solution? |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 10:47am
Someone else's idea. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 10:59am
   Oil Cooler Serial Number Trans Cooler Its difficult to photograph the oil cooler with all 4 connections visible. ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 11:00am
You can partially see the oil cooler tucked under the filter and engine mount ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 11:04am
| I'd rather be Pete's hose than Tim's. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 11:13am
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I dunno what you guys are talking about up there I can’t read it all … but for the record… Oil coolers cool the oil, they don’t cool the motor more or less per say just change where the heat is. In the case of the PCM momentary add on system with one pump you only have one stream of water to work with therefore you are adding the heat you remove from the oil to the water that you are then using to cool the block and heads. In certain low speed/cool water scenarios because the thermostat would be closed and you would be operating on a fixed bypass you would actually be running the water warmer. Theoretically the engine as a system maybe cooled slightly more at this point because of the additional heat exchange area but you would perceive it as running warmer if you are checking only the water temp gauge. When the thermostat is able to control the system by opening partially because you need less than full cooling capacity you would see the same water temps with or without the cooler, however again the overall engine is cooled more as the oil is cooler that it would be if you didn't have an oil cooler. When/if you run out of cooling capacity and see water temps above the thermostat controlling temp (which will happen sooner with an oil cooler than without both because you have lowered the flow rate by adding the waterside restriction of the oil cooler and because you are bringing warmer water to the engine cooling passages) – you would have the higher water temp at similar speeds/loads but cooler oil. You would likely never have cooler water temp than an oil cooler less system. The old Chrysler two pump setups where the oil cooler is not using the same water that cools the block and heads is a bit different scenario. But Joe doesn’t the cooler oil running through the engine cool it down somewhat… yeah yeah not significantly though- So oil cooler is only there if you need cooler oil – which sometimes is a good thing, and sometimes can be a bad thing and you still have the pressure drop on the oil side of the cooler to deal with – and the increased pressure that comes with the cooler oil – All we know for sure is that it won’t ever likely lower the temp of the cooling water temp gauge on a single pump system, I think. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 11:24am
Well for the record, everything you said has already been said in the stuff that you didn't read
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Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 11:32am
I assumed so, but now that it has been said by an Engineer who has occasionally taught thermodynamics and heat transfer at the (community) college level it can go on the record... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 11:37am
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Wisco Sometimes a picture or 2 or 3 lead to all kinds of shall we say discoveries. I think from the picture of your engine tag , that the big hunk of metal under it should be a 351 not a 302. That blue color on the tag and the engine is 76 vintage color. Maybe somebody swapped engines and put the old tag on or swapped tags. Why don't you measure across the intake mounting bolts from one side to the other. A 351 is about 9 1/4 inches center to center and a 302 is about 7 1/2 inches The P tells you that it was built by Pleasurecraft R is for reverse rotation and D is for a 255 HP 351 (that was the 1976 HP rating)  From an old post
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Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 11:44am
Before the thermostat opens isn't the heat that is removed from the oil and absorbed into the water passing through the cooler lost through the exhaust before it can transfer back into the heads/block? Seems like the heat exchange efficiency in the oil cooler would be significantly higher than water passing through the tstat housing and out the exhaust, but not sure. This is definitely not the direction I anticipated this thread going, but i enjoy it. I might have a poorly seated t stat that is allowing blowby or some other phenomena going on. But at least now you guys know I have an oil cooler. ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 12:11pm
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Why are you worried about the small amount of time that the thermostat is closed? You're having cooling issues when it's open and you're driving the boat around. The oil cooler has nothing to do with your over cooling issues is the easy to understand explanation
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Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 12:49pm
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Ken my concern is because it is not a small amount of time in my case. It is the entire time I am using the boat until I go 40+ mph for several minutes. When the thermostat is open I don't have a problem. It holds at 160 degrees +/- a few until i back off the throttle, then it drops. ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 1:16pm
Cole, Regarding the running cool when you back off the throttle, what is your concern? What does the temp go down to? What do you consider cold/cool? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: wiscofoot
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 2:46pm
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Pete 100-120 ------------- 1976 Martinique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-16-2019 at 3:01pm
Then what's cooling the engine for that period of time that you think the thermostat is still closed? Sounds like you could drive around at 3000 rpm for a half hour for example and your temp gauge stays low. Your engine would have overheated long before that half hour went by You have bypass flow around the thermostat or a stuck open thermostat. If things are right, you can idle the boat at the dock/launch ramp and the thermostat will open at idle speed with or without an oil cooler. |